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The Trial of a Nation

Urstruly December 1, 2005

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listing 144-160   1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11

#42 Posted by Urstruly on December 1, 2005 1:34:05 pm
Re: # 41

The evidence is the 8 nuclear tests that were conducted on May 28, 1999 Yom-e-Takbir (The day of attestation of Allah`s Sovereignty). The knowledge is pretty much in public domain.
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#40 Posted by arjun_m on December 1, 2005 1:18:48 pm
#35 by Romair on December 1, 2005 12:35pm PT


Nuclear technology and even weapons are, ``exchanged`` quite regularly amongst countries.


Umm...ok...but the paki army still has no choice but to place AQK under house arrest under US pressure...and ``debrief`` him(which is code language for letting the boys from Virginia remove his briefs)


Specifically, because it had nukes. Iran will not be invaded, if it eventually develops nukes. Much like Israel cannot be attacked. Nor can Pakistan. However, Iran may be invaded by the USA (or Israel), according to the two countries` own declarations; that is if it cannot develop


Which is why you can pretty much forget about Indian Kashmir falling into your lap....
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#39 Posted by AlephNull on December 1, 2005 1:15:35 pm
Pakistan’s effort to procure nuclear weapons can be traced back to January 1972, immediately following the ignominous surrender in Bangladesh. In that month, Zulfikar Bhutto, the new CMLA of Pakistan, summoned the personnel of Pakistan’s nuclear establishment to a conference in Multan, in which he asked them whether they could build a bomb, and how long it would take. Qadir Khan was in Belgium at the time, winding up his Ph.D. in xerography at Louvain; but Munir Ahmed Khan and other PAEC honchos were present at the meeting under the shamiana in Multan. Bhutto’s threat to have Pakistanis eat grass if necessary to acquire a bomb if India did, was made in the sixties.

Munir Ahmed Khan and company made the technically sensibly choice of going down the plutonium route – uranium enrichment is technically more difficult and uranium is in most respects inferior as a bomb-making material.
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#36 Posted by khare on December 1, 2005 12:39:31 pm

.....
India had its own Nuclear Scientist, who was also the creator of Missiles. India made this man, the son of a poor fisherman, a Muslim to boot, her President. .....

This has been clarified many times in other threads. But, still people put this ``imprecise`` information. The present president of India..Kalam...was instrumental in the development of missile program. However, nuclear technology in India was developed way before his times. (A gunnawala was heading the research!). In 1974 (?) when India detonated its fisrt bomb, Kalam was not at all in the picture ...probably still starting out. Plus, he was more successful at being a technocrat rather than a great ``scientist`` doing basic research. Check on Google how many research publications he has. Certainly this is not to undermine his brilliance at doing what he has done for the Indian Defence Dept.

YLH

After having preached so many people in recent times, you should at least say you were sorry & wrong in ``side-tracking`` the discussion by putting something that had absolutely nothing to do with the subject on hand. As early as the second interact! Or, is there a relevance between Seema Kermani`s unfortunate dispatch and Dr. Khan`s trial. I did not see it, however, I stand corrected if so...
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#35 Posted by Romair on December 1, 2005 12:35:54 pm
Godot #32: ``But those who developed it are hesitant to give it out freely for its dual use as weapon of mass destruction. ``

I hope you are not serious.

Nuclear technology and even weapons are, ``exchanged`` quite regularly amongst countries. The USA being on top of the list. Do read up on the amount of exchange of nuclear technology, between USA and Israel. It makes any exchange between Pakistan and Iran, look like child`s play. Not to mention the exchange of missile technology. Israel, today, has the third most sophisticated missile systems, behind USA and Russia. Far beyond anything Pakistan and India have........

NATO allies not only exchange nuclear technology, they exchange full nuclear weapons. The USA, ``exchanges`` nuclear weapons with its European allies. It deploys them in other countries. It is the equivalent of Pakistan deploying its nukes in Iran and Saudi Arabia and Sri Lanka! Imagine what would happen, if Pakistan ever signed a treaty and did that. Yet this is what the USA does. All its allies in Europe are under a US, ``nuclear umbrella.``

Belgium, Netherlands, Germany, Greece, Italy, Turkey and the UK all have US air-launched nuclear bombs based on their territories.

In fact, nuclear technology (not to mention weapons) are the biggest case of apartheid in the world. There is a completely different set of rules for the rich and the poor. Iran, till today, has not broken any nuclear treaty it has signed. To the best of my knowledge, it has no charges against it. However, the big-5 nuclear countries, violate the NPT, openly, everyday. The NPT binds them to decrease and rid themselves of their nuclear arsenal, in a stage manner. Yet, they, specially the USA presently, are coming out with one new nuke design after another!

Iran`s nukes are obviously as a deterence to Israel`s nukes. Much like Pakistan`s nukes were a deterence to India`s. And India`s were a deterence to China`s. And China`s were a deterence to the USA`s. The problem starts at the top of the pyramid. Until the USA discards nukes, other countries will slowly, but surely, develop them.

And in my opinion, they have every right to do so. Until the whole world denounces nukes.....

Rest assured, Iraq would not have been attacked, if it actually, ``had`` WMDs. Much like North Korea was not attacked, even though iit was the country that, ``had`` nukes. Specifically, because it had nukes. Iran will not be invaded, if it eventually develops nukes. Much like Israel cannot be attacked. Nor can Pakistan. However, Iran may be invaded by the USA (or Israel), according to the two countries` own declarations; that is if it cannot develop nukes...........
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#37 Posted by Godot on December 1, 2005 1:00:19 pm
Re: # 35

Romair

“I hope you are not serious.”

- Yes, I am.

“Nuclear technology and even weapons are, ``exchanged`` quite regularly amongst countries.”

- They indeed do, but only among those nations that have displayed utmost responsibility that comes with it...they happen to be all European countries, Israel, Russia, China and India.

“nuclear technology (not to mention weapons) are the biggest case of apartheid in the world. There is a completely different set of rules for the rich and the poor.”

- It’s apartheid by necessity.

“Iran`s nukes are obviously as a deterence to Israel`s nukes.”

- “Obviously”! You are saying that Iran feels as threatened by Israel as, say, Pakistan by India? One would say it’s the other way round. It’s Israel that’s threatened by Iran, not vice versa.

“Iraq would not have been attacked, if it actually, ``had`` WMDs”

- If Iraq had nuclear weapons, it would have already used it...against Iran, showing their utmost love for their Muslim brethren.

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#31 Posted by KaalChakra on December 1, 2005 10:50:09 am
AV

The entire process of building a nuclear bomb was not as simple as Mr. Khan stealing classified information in 1978.

Pakistani effort in this direction had begun in earnest a few years earlier, under Z.A. Bhutto. As in India, in Pakistan too it was and remains a non-negotiable national cause. Every government that followed Bhutto sustained the effort.

Pakistan took about ten years to finally cross the nuclear line, when China donated to it an idiot-proof blueprint of a nuclear bomb.

The eighties (IMO, the most fateful period in all of Pakistan`s post 1947 history) were the years of Reagan and Bush. By the time the decade closed, Pakistan`s nuclear bomb was ready, except for the proverbial tightening of the last screw.
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#27 Posted by avkrishna on December 1, 2005 10:17:23 am
It is unfortunate to see the accolade/scorn one individual gets for what would have definitely been a tremendous team effort in order to make/procure this bomb.

There is a reason why I still believe Pakistan might have procured (in whatever form) the technology rather than make it. India had a long tradition of Govt. support and sponsors for Nuclear research. There is atleast 3 decades of considerable effort on part of Govt. of Inida, Homi J Bhaba and innumerous other scientists to make the `74 bomb a reality and an equal amount of effort behind `99 explosions...

I haven`t read about a similar infrastructure in Pakistan. It might be my ignorance. But, can someone throw more light on this? When did the quest for Nuclear bomb in Pakistan start? Who are all the people involved? How long did it take?

Thanks,
Avkrishna
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#34 Posted by Urstruly on December 1, 2005 12:05:48 pm
Re: # 27 avkrishna

The following link details Pakistan`s nuclear program;

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/pakistan/nuke/

However, as far as I know, Pakistan`s nuclear and missile program was mandated by government when SUPARCO (Space & Upper Atmospheric Research Corp) was established in 1964. From 1964 to 1971 the SUPARCO concentrated its efforts more on snding the first satellite into the orbit, which it did, since that ws the rage around the globe after Kennedy`s vows to put the first man on the moon. A part of that effort was the establishment of departments of nuclear physics in Punjab and Quaid-e-Azam university. As a matter of fact the bulk of team of scientists working in nuclear facilities is alumni of these two universities.

However, Pakistan started putting serious effort into developing a nuclear program right after the defeat in the 1971 war and Pakistan assessed its vulnerability in case of foreign aggression. Unofficially, Pakistan had the device in early 80`s, which Zia threatened to Rajiv Gandhi with to use in case India started a war on Eastern front to support its soviet ally which was occupying Afghanistan at the time.
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#30 Posted by Godot on December 1, 2005 10:49:42 am
Re: # 27

avkrishna

``When did the quest for Nuclear bomb in Pakistan start?``

In 1974, when India exploded its device in Indian Ocean.

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#66 Posted by ballukhan on December 1, 2005 10:27:24 pm
Re: # 30

I think this is patently wrong and is only a propaganda by Pakistani leaders and their army that their nuclear programme was initiated in response to 1974 tests.......The Pakistani leaders and Generals wanted to hide the fact that the search for nuke technology began it in response to the 1971 humiliation so as to avoide recurrence of 1971 surrenders..... the Indians came to know about their plans early and beat the Pakistani Generals to it (just like Nazis were beaten in the race towards the ABomb in WWII).................. Pakistani Nuke programme was an borne out of a desire for revenge and annihilation of India..........that is why PAki Generals and their leaders actively ALLOWED AQ Khan to use the military resources to undertake a massive espionage work.......and hence the Generals were co-conspirators in the nuclear proliferation..............................

the whole episode is a sick reminder of the dangers that Pakistan`s TNT presents to the world peace........after all OBL spouts a perverse form of TNT only................and that is why more than half the Pakistani population supports OBL...........

http://www.wisconsinproject.org/countries/pakistan/nuke-miles.htm

Pakistan Nuclear Milestones

The Risk Report
Volume 6 Number 5 (September-October 2000)

1955: Establishment of Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission (PAEC).

1965: Prime Minister Zulfikar Ali Bhutto announces ``If India builds the bomb, we will eat grass or leaves, even go hungry. But we will get one of our own.``

1972: Z.A. Bhutto gathers Pakistan`s top scientists at Multan, and orders them to build an atomic bomb.

1974: India tests a nuclear bomb.

1976: Dr. Abdul Qadeer Khan becomes director of the Engineering Research Laboratories at Kahuta.

1984: Kahuta enrichm
ent plant begins producing enriched uranium.
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#29 Posted by delhiwala on December 1, 2005 10:29:43 am
Re: # 27
If I am not mistaken, Bhutto won his elections in 1972 on the promise that Pakistan will have A-Bomb even if they have to eat Grass. Probably 1972 can be considered as start for the same.

I think Pakistan and India and any other country have the right to have A-Bomb or Energy. Problem is when it is somebody else`s prototype(West in this case).

It is no different when OPEC holds rest of the world on its anvil because they have OIL.

Better response to my argument can be; USA used forced German Labor to develop A-Bomb. Real Stake holders for Nuclear Energy are Einstein(Jews) or Germans.
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#26 Posted by purvamitra on December 1, 2005 9:35:11 am
Dr. Khan is an intelligent thief who turned a megalomaniac after he assisted in preparing
the ``Bomb`` for a poor nation. He could have remained a hero for whole of his life had he
not started selling and personally managing a network of proliferators cum profiteers.
If he is very sure of himself, why doesn`t he let himself be interogated by americans?

No, he shamed Pakistan. He led a poor nation to desperation.
Rest is history.
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#23 Posted by Urstruly on December 1, 2005 9:00:19 am

Every great leader becomes great only because he accepts to bears the burden of leadership. He takes upon the responsibility of a certain task that his peers, equivalents, and those who are even better than him don`t or won`t. This is the reason these otherwise ordinary human beings, who breath like the rest, who talk like the rest, who walk like the rest do not remain ordinary because their burden makes them walk the walk and talk the talk that no other can.

What is the ``burden of leadership``? The burden of leadership is not the difficulties that these leaders come across while they work to achieve their goals, because anyone can do that, but the burden of leadership is the morass that they have to overcome, which is created by their fellow men – friends and foes – to prevent them from getting to their destiny. This morass is the sometimes the character assassination, sometimes it is backbiting and sometimes it is outright leg pulling. Such morass is created by people who have no hope and no confidence in themselves; they are mean-spirited little men who think that the only way to rise above is by standing on the carcass of their opponent. A genuine leader overcomes all odds and rise above the pack no matter what because of his determination to face whatever may come.

The enemies of Islam, Pakistan, and those pygmies who could not compare with Dr. Khan tried to assassinate his character in two ways:

1. They accused Dr. Qadeer of stealing the nuclear technology
2. They accused Dr. Qadeer of causing the ``proliferation`` of nuclear technology.

1. Stealing the Nuclear Technology:

The Pakistani nation has never doubted the abilities of its sons of soil. Whenever, an hour of need has struck this nation, it has risen above and its sons have sacrificed themselves to rise above; whether these were the wars that were imposed on us, whether it is fighting and defeating one of the world`s most brutal superpower, or whether it has to face the earthquake disaster of the century or whether it is making Pakistan a nuclear power, her sons have proven that they are less than no one. That is the reason Pakistani nation never believed the propaganda that Dr. Qadeer had stolen the nuclear technology. Yes there were moments of doubt but there were people in the nation who knew the truth. As this article depicts, the truth of the matter was always there for everyone to see. But it was the mean-spiritedness of enemies of Islam, Pakistan, and Dr. Qadeer that they put the truth aside. One may ask, a journalist who condescendingly writes ``Dr. Qadeer was acquitted because of technicality``, how come he wasn`t aware of the details behind the ``technicality`` ? As this article shows without the shadow of doubt that the truth could be easily verified but they didn`t. Why?

2. Nuclear Proliferation.

First of all Pakistanis must refuse to submit to this brainwashing that Nuclear Proliferation is somehow a crime. The nuclear energy and power is a gift of God for humanity. Every nation in the world has the basic human right to benefit from the bounty of God. Yes it is true that nuclear energy has some serious consequences too if it falls into wrong hands and it must be regulated worldwide but this regulation must be fair, just, and equitable. The current nuclear proliferation treaty is unjust and monitoring system is unfair and inequitable. Its sole purpose is to keep developing nations from getting a cheap source of energy and keep the monopoly of advanced nations. The case in point is the Iran. This nation is a signatory of NPT; its facilities and each and every equipment is monitored by not only the cameras, round the clock, but international inspectors can inspect it at anytime and yet every effort is being made by developed nations to shut its program down. Therefore, accepting such unjust treaties is below human dignity. Pakistan is a signatory to no such treaty. Therefore Pakistan has a sovereign right to share its technology to any nation of the world, wherever it serves its national interest. It is the time that Pakistani nation must stand up for their sovereign right and not stand down. It must tell spineless and coward dictators and conniving foreign agents who have taken this whole nation hostage at gunpoint that Pakistani nation will not back down on this one.
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#32 Posted by Godot on December 1, 2005 11:54:53 am
Re: # 23

Urstruly

Your post is a fire-breathing rhetoric based on shaky logic.

1. Dr AQK is a bright man, but he did steal the nuclear-design blue print while in Holland. To my knowledge, he has not appeared in court in Holland to defend himself against the charges levied against him.

2. There are evidence obtained by the Americans (not to mention Libya and Iran openly verifying it) that DR AQK has passed nuclear secrets to other countries

3. Nuclear technology is a right for all the countries to have to meet the energy demand. But those who developed it are hesitant to give it out freely for its dual use as weapon of mass destruction. I don’t think there is control in place that restricts the enrichment of Uranium to 50% needed to produce energy, to about 95% needed to make nuclear weapons. Also, the cost of monitoring is probably prohibitive.

4. Why would the rich countries want to see the poor countries remain poor? They only hurt themselves for all those poor people will be (and are) knocking on their rich doors to enter and upset their social and economic life. Besides, why aren’t the rich countries doing their best to keep China and India poor but doing exactly the opposite?

5. Why does Iran need nuclear energy when it has more oil to meet its needs than it can possibly use.

6. Lastly, no one outside Islam is enemy of Islam (not counting fanatics like Franklin Graham, Jerry Falwell, or Ann Coulter...these kind of people exist in every society and do not necessarily represent the majority view.) It’s the Muslim themselves who are the enemy of Islam. Al Qaida has hurt Islam more than any fanatical Zionist or Hindu could ever dream of. Muslims not only hate the world, they hate even themselves, Shia-Sunni being a case in point.

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#38 Posted by Urstruly on December 1, 2005 1:06:31 pm
Re: # 32 Godot

The Living Quarters 49:12

O ye who believe! Avoid suspicion as much (as possible): for suspicion in some cases is a sin: And spy not on each other behind their backs. Would any of you like to eat the flesh of his dead brother? Nay, ye would abhor it...But fear Allah: For Allah is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.


I don`t know about you but as a Muslim this is my guiding principle; and so it is for millions of Pakistanis who consider Dr. Qadeer their hero. Please read the article before commenting, because after reading it, the matter of allegation on Dr. Qadeer for stealing nuclear technology does not remain a matter of suspicion but a matter of knowledge. As a fellow human being we have also responsibility towards Dr. Qadeer to accord him the respect that he desreves and if not, at least try not to disrespect him. The matters of law are not ambigious or rhetorical. Laws and the verdicts that are delivered according to them are simply based on evidence that is provided in the court of law. If you read the article you will know that court acquitted him of any charge of stealing nuclear technology and that the technicality was only used by his lawyers as a leverage. Furthermore the ministers in the Dutch parliament testified that it was not humanly possible to steal the nuclear technology in 16 days that Dr. spent in the facility. If despite of knowing this truth, one wants to malign Drs. good name than one can only feel sorry for his system of values and his upbringing.

As far as the allegation of Dr selling nuclear secrets to other countries is concerned, I don`t think it is humanly possible, unless government is involved in it. Dr. is one of the most important and prized personalities in the history of Pakistan and a considerable amount of human and capital resources are spent to protect him. I don`t think GOP can play innocent here that Dr ``sold` secrets without its knowledge. These coward dictators are only saving their own skins and in the mean time they are insulting Pakistani nation because their masters demand it. I can bet my ass that everybody in this forum must have heard the phrase in their lifetime when rich people refer to poor, especially their servants ``inn haramzadon ko inn ki auqaat par rakhna chahiyay``. It is the open agenda of neo-colonial powers to degrade our system of values and our heroes. After the vassalage of 200 years every one must know how it works. That is the reason the character assassination of Dr. Qadeer is being done in a systematic way. Do you think that Pakistani nation is so chutiya that it cannot see thru this, then you are sadly mistaken.

I do not doubt that Pakistan must have exchanged nuclear technology with other nations. Though I refuse to accept it as a crime just because neo-colonial powers say so. When sanctions were imposed on Pakistan after coup d`etat in 1999, a cash strapped Paksitan had to generate cash, that was our compulsion. And in exchange if we get better missile technolgy then it is our pragmatism. But accusing Dr. Khan of selling nuclear secrets by himself is lowest of the low and below human dignity.

By the way the so-called ``evidence` that Libiyan dictator handed over to Americans consisted of some papers in a shopping bag of some tailor in Rawalpindi. LA Times wrote a derogatory article on that questioning US governments declaration that that was it - the grand plan to build a reprocessing plant by a rogue Dr. My ass.
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