The Trial of a Nation

Re: # 144

I agree with you. My use of `average` is only about his technical skills which are relatively inferior compared to his administrative and leadership skills,

He is an amazing person. No doubt about it. Very very insipirational,


Thanks,

Re: # 138

r.a.janjua

``What`s your point re Pakistan`s nuclear weapons? (Please be brief and succinct.)...that`s asking AlephLull too much.``

This self-proclaimed genius, aptly named Anull, runs when cornered. I expected that from him. However, in a moment of candor he declared in his post #99: ``The brief answer is that I have absolutely no idea.``

re:#143 by avkrishna
APJ Kalam is more than average. The most famous scientist Einstein has already said: success is 90% perspiration and 10% inspiration. Kalam is outstanding in everything that he does because he is motivated and also a motivator of people. He spearheaded the missile development from zero level and look where it is now!
Sridhar

re:#137 by ahmadzai
Ha, ha!
Fanciful thinking.
Show me the link where such thinking is prevalent in congress. Indian caucus in US is powerful enough and would have gotten wind of such thinking, if there was one.
So, this is just a creation of your mind. If you have some data, please present it.
India and US are gearing up towards a stretegic tie up. Nuclear tieup is only a small beginning. I will post the full extent of this tie up in my future posts. Suffice it to say that US sees India as a strategic partner in Asia and is concerned about the ever increasing Chinese military power.
Pak is important to US in as far as it would want to contain Al-Qaida and hunt for terrorists. I have not seen any strategic tie up with Pak, nor any big time investments.
Sridhar

i agree with urstrulys article premise. the west is constantly watching and they found AQ as a nice scapegoat, it was like an encouter killing, the allowed AQ to be caught. the ``exposed`` links with malaysian industries were enlightning. getting libya to show-up to the party was high melodrama.

mr janjua, indias days of ``trying to do everything`` is history. its far more open to getting cheaper tech, even by begging (very low cost apprach if it works), but it has a healthy wariness about ``serving`` foreign masters.

Urstruly:

Since you have not answered my previous post, I would like to recap the battle in the international arena between pro- Musharraf (e.g. people like me) and anti-Musharraf (people like you):

You defeated us comprehensively in the following areas :-)

1. Sending military to Iraq
2. Not stoping our nuclear development program
3. Not stopping our missile development program
4. Not letting US military enter FATA.

We defeated you in the following areas:

1) After Pakistan and Italy led the move of not letting India, Brazil, Japan and Germany become permanent members of the UN, the USA sided with Pakistani position. This reflects the political weight Pakistan carries.

2) USA accorded non NATO alliance status to Pakistan

3) USA sent its military helicopters to help Pakistan round the clock. USA saw the over-whelming unity amongst the people of Pakistan.

4) USA is about to sign an investment treaty with Pakistan.

5) It is the USA and Israel that want Pakistan recognize the latter, whereas we are talking from the position of strength.

6) Our strength is reflected from such instances when the foreign office spokeswoman rebukes IAEA on letting Al B meet AQK directly.

Net result is that it is not pro and anti Musharraf people, not you and I, but entire Pakistani nation that is winning.

In the meantime, we should consider the chapter of Dr. AQK closed for it would be only fundoo Indoos who will bask if we continue to do that.

Ahmadzai

I find it absolutely disgusting; as a matter of fact it makes my skin crawl when people put forth the criteria to measure the adeptness of a nation by the level of approval it has by the United States. This is ultimate moral and mental bankruptcy and accute degree of mental vassalage. WE have our own system of values; and I would like Pakistan to be judged by that system of values. So pardon me if I ignore your posts.

The four points that you have mentioned are, arrogant, self-serving, and condescending. The fact of the matter is that Pakistan is occupied by a corrupt, spineless, and arrogant ruling class who have dug their fangs deep into the jugular of the nation. The nation has been demoralized, held hostage, and terrorized into submission by the corruption and lawlessness they have induced into the system. Unfortunately, NaPak fauj provide the muscle to this corrupt class and some Mullahs , and lotay politicians on the payroll provide cover to this ruling class. People of Pakistan are not stupid; they are just helpless. Please do not add insult to the injury of the people by your condescending posts. Thank you.

faisal

there are four degrees of lies:

lies

damn lies

statistics

and GOP statistics, which is the ultimate level of lies that only Satan himself can concoct.

Re: # 152


It is very saddest thing to see by eyes the greatest practical science giant and engineer of IRP kept in house arrest by its own government. Do cover the part of Govt of IRP the her greatest son ( after Jinnah and Bhutto) is used as pawn to satisfy USA Govt.

Giants make big mistakes. And Dr. Khan may have made few mistakes but they are economical cheating etc. He may have sold some technology and materials and made money but that is happening all time all spheres of life and corruption and making money unethical way is integrated vertically and horizontally in social , economical, intelluctual life and needs to move things. Even I can admit I have not paid taxes according to spirit of law. Now I do not give importance to people who have made no such thing as that is not virtue but necessity as they do not make much money.

Did he did against policies of IRP ? Answer is no, He did what was proposed to done by govt.
Our nukes have no value unless they can fly and strike Indian cities and obliterate and and fire burn enemy cities. Due to his effort and exchanges with korea country that was possible. They got nuke and IRP got little help in heroic name carrying missiles. That was reason when provoked by Indian Nayyar newspapeman when he said “IRP has no nukes”. He answered as in mythical drama brilliantly saying I can burn Delhi and Bombay In 5 minutes. He is spirited engineer and does not consider fake modesty as virtue.

Unfortunately dr. khan is like a great African lion caged and ridiculed by short pigmies. When I was small saw a big tiger from E.Pakistan in big cage. That majestic animal beast was reduced to dog. Little boys and girls were hurling little stones and hitting and then stupid woman came with umbrella and strike his nice coat. Helpless beast cried with pain and moved away. I feel exactly same way the lion of IRP Shere E Pakistan is caged by evil general and he is acting as ringmaster and making great khan bend as general does before his wild west American boss. It is sad General reduced him to common thief and made him ask for mercy not to hand over to Americans give protection.

General demolished his political challenge as he had ambition to lead nation. Now his chances are gone. There is Lab people who were jalous of Dr. Khans chances of getting prestigious nobel prize type. They stabbed him. Some became envious of his money specially hotels around in asia and afrika. General also did not follow law of rule then why great khan only selectively selected for punishment.

Heaven will be kinder to him than army generals.
There should be movement to free Shere E Pakistan from clutches of Evil general ringmasters so great Khan can go free and roar like lion and put fear in hearts of evil men and women who has bad intensions for IRP in their hearts. General will come and go, prime ministers will come and kicked out but Great Dr.Khan and his people (IRP) will always go ahead with great assets protecting IRP.


Let month has 1000 days and Dr.Khan live 1000 years.
And down with ring master general and his GHQ staff for tormenting gentleman.

Re: # 153

Aamen! brother. Long live the King - Sher-e-Pakistan, Dr. AQK. Down with vultures and hyennas.

#154 by Urstruly on December 4, 2005 8:27pm PT

Urstruly pays taxes to the US government..

Tax $$ are used to build America`s military might.

America`s military might means Uncle Sam can lean on Musharraf to put AQK in the paki doghouse.

hmm...seems to me like urstruly`s money is being used to put AQK in the paki doghouse.

#150 by ahmadzai on December 4, 2005 7:26pm PT


4) USA is about to sign an investment treaty with Pakistan.


which is nothing like the free trade agreement the paki government is seeking..India can already export an unlimited amount of software to the US..



5) It is the USA and Israel that want Pakistan recognize the latter, whereas we are talking from the position of strength.


As much as i`d like to clear this delusion, I`ll let urstruly do it...

urstruly...take it away...

This most convincing article coming from the right...but this not mean right is right...

#138 by r.a.janjua
#121 by Rommel

Janjua and Rommel, I think you don’t need to rely on the newspapers accounts of the history of Pakistan nuke development. As some Journalists would write any thing based on where their interests lie.

The reality is that Munir Khan was not even allowed to enter KRL. He lacked the security clearance to enter the premises; therefore, chances of his being the father of Pakistani nuke program are next to nothing. PAEC was involved in power generation part of the nuke energy and had nothing to do with the nuke testing program which was completely under AQKhan’s control.

I have often heard this argument that AQkhan is a Metallurgist by training. True, but there is nothing in the nuclear science that a trained scientist cannot pickup or understand after a little study.

Even A-Dull here claims to be a nuke scientist after reading “high school calculus and serber`s `delightful` book and learning about the Shamiana” Talk about clueless, delusional and a Shamiana aficionado

Obviously, Dr.AQKhan is a trained scientist and extremely brilliant too, he certainly should not have any problems with grabbing that knowledge.

If you know how the research labs work, you would never question his ability to supervise a nuke lab. Research Labs are headed by scientists but the head honcho is almost never the hands on guy. He job, like any other CEO, is to put out firefights, arrange funds, build up the lab work and mostly do the PR work.

KRL had plenty of nuke scientists and there was no need for AQKhan to do the actual work. There were and still are some extremely competent scientists working at KRL. So it really was unimportant whether he was a Metallurgist by education and training.

#140 by kaalchakra
“but with making xerox copies of classified technical documents, and smuggling those xerox copies.”

I think you really have some misconception about the “copying” part of it. I don’t know if the Xerox machines were popular back in 1974 but when we talk about diagrams and designs especially in a sensitive area like this, we are talking about 100s of pages of drawings and plotters. So “copying” is not as simple a matter as people make it out to be, especially back in 1974.

If at all, he probably took notes and tried to understand the process.

Urs Truly,

I agree that AQKhan must never be handed over to any outsider, either from the IAEA or anywhere else, and only Pakistani law should be applied to him. Having said that, you must understand that what ever he is going through has a history to it and is the fruit of his own deeds that he committed in the past. You cannot deny that he is completely innocent as far as the proliferation charges are concerned. Yes, he is certainly not alone, with many powerful accomplices who managed to get away with it, while he could not. But ofcourse, again, how could he get away with it when he himself had put in 30 years in building his self-styled image and myth as the nuclear god-father of Pakistan, when he did not deserve any of it in reality. The West picked him up simply because of his high profile defection from Urenco, and then he became a liability for Pakistan, since he could not have been disowned at any point in time. Thereafter successive governments used his high profile image in the Western media to act as a cover and a decoy for the scientists at the PAEC where the real work was being done. But during all this, he managed to get out of control and knew no bounds to his megalomania. How many scientists around the world engaged in the nuclear program have had such insatiable appetite for self-glorification, all at the cost of national interest as he has had?

One most important point, the west is not crazy for targeting him, he was the only scientist along with his accomplices at KRL who was involved in proliferation. Why does the west not target the PAEC people? Because PAEC folks never indulged in such activities. They too had secret funds and immense powers at their disposal. Yet they behaved with maturity, responsibility and put the supreme national interest above personal gains and self-glory.

It is precisely because AQKhan had built himself up as the nuclear father that he became the target of the west and it is for this reason alone that he knew he could not be caught and he got away with whatever he did. Yes Pakistan is not a signatory of the NPT, but we are a responsible nation, and we must behave with utmost nuclear responsibility, otherwise we run the risk of inviting self-destruction like Saddam`s Iraq. there is no morality in International Relations, there is only power politics and small nations have to play it very safe. But was AQKhan not a signotory to the Official Secrets Act?

why did the PAEC scientists not indulge in such activities?Did AQKhan not violate the trust that was bestowed upon him, although at great cost to the national interest retrospectively, by the nation? He could not have dreamed of the life of such opulance and power that he enjoyed in Pakistan while he was at Urenco. Yet he sold material under his administrative control to Libya, Iran and North Korea, the three countries that the West calls the axis of evil, along with his accomplices for personal greed. It is a shame how white collar criminals are defended without realizing that his actions have put Pakistan`s nuclear program`s credibility at stake and put a ready made case in the hands of the enemies of Pakistan to be used any time against us in the future. Remember, Iraq was attacked and occupied on the mere suspicion of developing weapons of mass destruction. AQKhan has shown that Pakistan has been helping other states with producing nuclear weapons, and is the centre of illegal nuclear smuggling. The tragedy is that he has cast serious doubts about the credibility of the entire Pakistani nuclear scientific community, when 99 percent of them are patriotic, honest and responsible people, committed to national interest and world peace. Nuclear Weapons are to be treated with immense maturity and responsibilty.

Had AQKhan been in any other country, he would have been tried for high treason along with his accomplices in a court of law. Is he above the law or is his image more dear to us or is Pakistan`s nuclear program and interest more dear to us? Both cannot go together. If such people are allowed to get away with their crimes, then we will have the world at our doorstep demanding sanctions, nuclear roll back, opening of our nuclear sites to the IAEA supervision and control and inspection and God forbid, military action as an extreme step.

AQKhan has brought harm, dishonor and disgrace to Pakistan. His role in the nuclear program is marginal. His actions have put the credibility of Pakistan in the eyes of the world in serious jeapoardy. He has through his actions given the enemies of Pakistan a very clear issue to use against our nuclear program and harm our national security. So make a choice, are we prepared to stand up to the world for a man who sold his nation for money, or are we more interested in safeguarding Pakistan? Individuals come and go, nations and institutions remain. National security demands that we start thinking rationally and maturely, rather than fall for emotional hogwash and ruin whatever we have painstaikingly built in the past 50 years.

We must show that we are a responsible nuclear power where the rule of law prevails, not a rogue state which is a source of nuclear blackmarketing. Is Pakistan more dear to us or is Iran , North Korea and Libya more dear? Imagine what would have happened if Musharraf had not acted wisely. We would have had sanctions, then military action. Tell me, how long can we stand up to a US attack with India joining in? How long can we stand up against sanctions alone? Therefore the wise thing to do is to accept what wrong has happened and rectify our mistakes.

If the west was making up stories,and if they wanted to target our nuclear program without any solide justification, they should have targeted the PAEC as well because that is where most of the work is done. KRL was there before AQKhan, and will remain after him also. Pakistan`s nuclear program was hijacked by AQKhan for his personal fame and glory, and now his actions have proven that giving him autonomy was a big mistake. Yes, he is not alone in all this, and all others, regardless of status, must be brought to justice.

Long Live Pakistan.

Pakistan
http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/nuchist.htm
--1972: Following its third war with India, Pakistan secretly decides to start nuclear weapons program to match India`s developing capability. Canada supplies reactor for the Karachi Nuclear Power Plant, heavy water and heavy-water production facility.

--1974: Western suppliers embargo nuclear exports to Pakistan after India`s first test of a nuclear device.

--1975: Purchasing of components and technology for Kahuta uranium-enrichment centrifuge facility begins after return of Dr. Abdul Qadeer Khan, German-trained metallurgist who takes over nuclear program.

--1976: Canada stops supplying nuclear fuel for Karachi.

--1977: German seller provides vacuum pumps, equipment for uranium enrichment. Britain sells Pakistan 30 high-frequency inverters for controlling centrifuge speeds. United States halts economic and military aid over Pakistan`s nuclear-weapons program.

--1978: France cancels deal to supply plutonium reprocessing plant at Chasma.

--1979: United States imposes economic sanctions after Pakistan is caught importing equipment for uranium enrichment plant at Kahuta.

--1981: Smuggler arrested at U.S. airport while attempting to ship two tons of zirconium to Pakistan. Nevertheless, Reagan administration lifts sanctions and begins generous military and financial aid because of Pakistani help to Afghan rebels battling Soviets.

--1983: China reportedly supplies Pakistan with bomb design. U.S. intelligence believes Pakistani centrifuge program intended to produce material for nuclear weapons.

--1985: Congress passes Pressler amendment, requiring economic sanctions unless White House certifies that Pakistan is not embarked on nuclear weapons program. Islamabad is certified every year until 1990.

--1986: Pakistan, China sign pact on peaceful use of nuclear energy, includin