The Trial of a Nation

#41 by AlephNull on December 1, 2005 1:24pm PT
“Reality check: is there any convincing evidence in the public domain that would indicate that Pakistan succeeded in enriching uranium at an industrial scale (i.e. equivalent to tens of kilograms of HEU per year)? Why should one not suspect that the alleged enrichment plant at Kahuta is a Potemkin village?”

Well the reality check is that no one could have stolen anything in a sixteen days stay in a nuke lab that even under lax security environment would be secured enough to not let a foreign face in the secured areas without some clearance. In most of the places, even in the 70s, security clearance would take more than three weeks.

I know a-dull is stupid but a question like that can only be asked from a person who has top security clearance in Pakistani establishment. I hope Indians have this information in public domain and if they do can someone print the URL to info from some official Indian government site. I would really appreciate that if nothing else, just to get an understanding of the process Indians used.

Raw_Dust

For the sake of Pakistani state - as it exists - some things are better left unsaid, until and unless Pakistanis themselves decide to come clean about them.

It seems undeniable, though, that Mr. Khan made his services available zealously and extensively, to all those who may have been running the operations. An unbecoming and unwise move for a scientist and national hero of his stature.

Re: # 45 To answer that question Alephnull, Urstruly would have to be come not only Aleph 1, 2 3 and oo but also be a great master spy with total inside information regarding Pak Bombs. If he had that info and he divulged it we would be reading his last rites.

Also the fundemental technical requirements (as you seem to indicate in the difference between a plutonium bomb and industrial quantity uranium) would be lost on many. So please explain/expand on this.

#38 by Urstruly on December 1, 2005 1:06pm PT


I don`t know about you but as a Muslim this is my guiding principle; and so it is for millions of Pakistanis who consider Dr. Qadeer their hero.


Sorry...Capt Clueless, among others, has told us the current government of Pakiland is democratically elected...and putting AQK in the paki doghouse is the action of the democratically elected paki government...so it`s safe to assume that paki think AQK belongs in prison/house arrest..



As far as the allegation of Dr selling nuclear secrets to other countries is concerned, I don`t think it is humanly possible, unless government is involved in it. Dr. is one of the most important and prized personalities in the history of Pakistan and a considerable amount of human and capital resources are spent to protect him. I don`t think GOP can play innocent here that Dr ``sold` secrets without its knowledge. These coward dictators are only saving their own skins and in the mean time they are insulting Pakistani nation because their masters demand it.


The US probably didn`t even have to threaten to bomb Pakiland to the stone age like it did after 9/11...Bilal Musharraf`s green card was probably enough to get AQK in the paki doghouse..



Though I refuse to accept it as a crime just because neo-colonial powers say so.


What the people of detriot think has no relevance..The fact remains, AQK is on the paki doghouse..we all know what debriefing means, right? He`s in a prison with the boys from Langley stripping him down to his briefs..

Speaking of YOUR technical knowledge, that`s already been exposed when you made an idiot of yourself with the whole IFF super-duper secret frequency thing....

#32 by godot on December 1, 2005 11:54am PT


5. Why does Iran need nuclear energy when it has more oil to meet its needs than it can possibly use.


Not that I think the mullahs should get nukes, but this might be of interest..

Are Iran`s Arguments Sound?

2.1. Iran Needs Nuclear Energy

2.1.1, Nuclear Energy for an Oil-Rich Country

The first is that Iran has vast oil and gas resources and therefore does not
need nuclear energy. Although it is true that Iran is rich in oil and gas, these
resources are finite and, given the pace of Iran`s economic development, they
will be depleted within two to five decades. With a territory of 1,648,000 km2
and a population of about 70 million, projected to be more than 105 million
in 2050, Iran has no choice but to seek access to more diversified and secure
sources of energy. Availability of electricity to 46,000 villages now, compared
to 4400 twenty five years ago, just as an example, demonstrates the fast growing
demand for more energy. And the youthfulness of the Iranian population, with
around 70% under 30, doesn`t allow complacency when it comes to energy policy.
To satisfy such growing demands, Iran can`t rely exclusively on fossil energy.
Since Iranian national economy is still dependent on oil revenue, it can`t allow
the ever increasing domestic demand affect the oil revenues from the oil export.

Re: # 49 actually, if you used your contacts in the DT, HP you could do a number of things. Like for example when and how the uranium was obtained in the first instance? How much of it was obtained in raw ore form, and how much was obtained for researh purposes in refined form from outside. These must surely be obtainable for a person of your reach. Once done, run the maths and see if the gas centrifuges in Kahuta are really required for the work or just like great big machines for turning out a couple of pegs!. Then the village issue is soved, and AlephNull can be answered without much ceremony.

maulana urstruly..take a look..allah`s chosen people(allah`s jews, if you will) are clutching at straws in their futile attempts to get Indian Kashmir...didn`t you pakis tell us that post 9/11, Pakiland had Uncle Sam`s wind in their sails and it was just a matter of time before the US leaned on India to hand over Indian Kashmir?

Now you know why AQK is in the doghouse..the US doesn`t need to win the hearts and minds of 150 million pakis when it has Pakiland`s military rules by the you-know-what...

President seeks US Kashmir support

The delegation expressed support for the peace process between Pakistan and India to resolve all outstanding issues between the two countries, including the early settlement of Jammu and Kashmir dispute. The President stressed on the need for the United States to lend its support to the efforts aimed at resolving the Jammu & Kashmir dispute which is at the root of tension in South Asia. He underscored the importance of moving towards a settlement of the Kashmir dispute in the interest of durable peace and stability in the region.

iron_mask #51

Re uranium vs plutonium as bomb-making material – U-235 has a much larger critical mass than Pu-239 (nominally 15-25 kg for U-235, vs 5-8 kg for Pu-239). In partial compensation, uranium is about a third denser than plutonium; nevertheless the fissile core of an uranium bomb would need to be larger. This in turn means a proportionally bulkier and heavier set of explosive lenses for an implosion device (by far the preferred scheme for an efficient use of that ultra-expensive fissile material) and thus a larger and heavier overall package.

A light compact device is always preferable. Weight matters a great deal for a device that rides atop a ballistic misile, since it crucially affects range; bulk also matters beyond a point. A bomb carried on a strike aircraft should preferably not be inordinately heavy; also these things are typically carried externally on pylons, and a larger package would be draggier, to the detriment of range. Similar considerations (both bulk and heft) apply to a cruise missile. Hence the preferability of plutonium for the core of a fission device.

The most well-known drawback of plutonium is that it can’t be used in a gun-type device (because of predetonation problems caused by the presence of the non-fissile nuisance isotope Pu-240). It needs the very precisely timed initiation of an implosion device. But in any case implosion devices are preferred for both U and Pu because they give more bang for the fissile material buck.

The other major consideration is the ease of producing the fissile material. Plutonium could be created in a research reactor; the key reprocessing steps are basically chemistry with radiological safeguards. Uranium enrichment on the other hand is a physical process (gaseous diffusion or ultracentrifuges) – long drawn-out, a massive electricity hog, prone to mechanical breakdowns, leaks of an unpleasant toxic corrosive gas, etc. So plutonium is once again the preferred route for a country that desires a basic deterrent rather than full-spectrum capability or a substantial nuclear power program.

#56 by AlephNull on December 1, 2005 3:54pm PT

That`s waaay over HP`s head...perhaps you can post something more basic..like a nuclear reactions for dummies...just for HP...

That post wasn’t aimed at Hydrophobia – very few if any of my posts in the last year have been written primarily with him in mind. It was intended for people who might have read up on some of this in the past and who have at least a passing familiarity with the ideas of fissile material, critical mass and implosion. It’s a thumbnail sketch; explaining every part of the argument for the greater military utility of plutonium in excruciating detail would take way too much space.

IMO it’s not difficult to get a basic understanding of the issues involved. There’s a delightful little book by the late Robert Serber called The Los Alamos Primer. It’s based on mimeographed lecture notes prepared for experimental physicists and engineers at Los Alamos during WW II. It requires only high-school level physics and maths as prerequisites – the merest dash of calculus; an engineering education would be massive overkill. Wolfson’s Nuclear Choices is an excellent supplement – or complete substitute, for people who want a completely non-technical but still accurate and lucid explanation. The Wikipedia articles (on nuclear weapons design, etc.) are also very good. With that background, an alert, curious but skeptical person should be able to sift through assorted claims that appear in the media and separate the wheat from the chaff. For amateur fanatics, there’s a great deal more fascinating material available in the public domain.

Urstruly:

Dr. AQK is revered in Pakistan and will always be revered in Pakistan. Whatever folly he committed has been pardoned by the President Of Pakistan in the great national interest of Pakistan. This was not the first time in human history that pardon has been extended. This act has been fully accepted by our friends - USA, UK, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Malaysia, etc.

Dr. AQK is in house arrest in his own interest and in the interest of Pakistan.

The fact of the matter is that Pakistan is a country of 150 million strong people, which is also a declared nuclear state. This is a state that Israel wants to have full relations with. This is a state that has played a pivotal role in the laying down of the foundation of reformation of UN. It is critically important that we behave in the world in a responsible manner, not in an emotional one.

So let the brain-washed people react negatively. Sky will not fall.

I wish you well.

:-)

Turd Blossom, A-dull,

I am not asking for something big…I am not even challenging revealed religions or screwed up religions or no religions or some fancy name religions and what not …all I am asking is this….
From my previous post
“I hope Indians have this information in public domain and if they do can someone print the URL to info from some official Indian government site. I would really appreciate that if nothing else, just to get an understanding of the process Indians used.”

You guys are the champions of search engines, can find any ref on the web and then post it here…All I am asking that you post some Indian official govt site that provides information about the Indian nukes like the one A-dull was looking for from Urstruly…That is all there is to it…Why are you crying and posting irrelevant stuff that pretty much anyone can find on the web or elsewhere?

Here is the link that gives us some information as to who pardoned who in the USA.

http://www.watergate.info/

There are other links as well.

The important point like I said is that Pakistan is a declared nuclear state and an important country in the comity of nations. We can`t afford to be religiously emotional, although we should always be religiously focused because, like Israel, we are an ideological country.

Re: # 59 Ahmadzai

So Dr. Qadeer is pardoned by the criminal who himself is liable to be hung to the next tree for violating the constitution of Pakistan. This shows the moral and mental bankruptcy of our ruling class. Being realpolitikally pragmatic in politics is one thing but selling ones own mother for political gains is other. As human beings we must appraciate this difference and we should be truthful rather than being complacent.

The least this criminal can do is is to apologize to the nation and to Dr. Khan and his family for all the wrong he has done in this sordid affair. I know that the oppression of the corrupt ruling class is so overwhelming and brutal that Pakistani nation could not stand up for Dr. Khan against this attrocity but least of the Jihad is to consider an evil as evil in ones heart. That is what we should do. Dr. Khan has done absolutely nothing wrong. Pray for the justice for the innocent.

Re: # 43 Godot

Why I or people like me are suspicios of West has been debated upteenth time. Lets forget how everything that they tell has always been proven a lie on daily basis. Lets forget the two slaughter houses one in Palestine and other in Iraq where human beings are sacrificed everyday for the imperial aggression of West upon Muslims. And lets not discuss the dictators they support who use full military machinery to murder and oppress us. But I will say only one thing.

Very recently I went to Canada for an official visit and I had to stay there for couple of days. At night I regularly watched on TV an ad by Canadian government promoting the Nuclear Energy for their country. Romair or any other who live in Canada will attest that. It made me wonder, now look at these people; they are begging for their people to give them a mandate to establish more nuclear energy plants and on the other hand they run disipicable campaigns against poor nations and try everything possible to keep those nations from developing nuclear energy resources and that includes the threat of aggression as well. It just kinda makes you think. I am not suspecious, I am just thoughtful.

re: 27

the effort started in the 60s - this khota, a.q. khan made some contributions to the program but nothing compared to others - munir ahmad, samar mubarkmand - to name just two. why you guys never heard about the program itself? - because its never been politically correct to brag about these things.