The Trial of a Nation

re: hp
this guy AlephLull is an idiot of the highest order - if wiki, high school calculus and serber`s `delightful` book were all that was needed, this world would be one dangerous place - but its good when people say that pakistan does`nt have nukes.

Re: # 30

I think this is patently wrong and is only a propaganda by Pakistani leaders and their army that their nuclear programme was initiated in response to 1974 tests.......The Pakistani leaders and Generals wanted to hide the fact that the search for nuke technology began it in response to the 1971 humiliation so as to avoide recurrence of 1971 surrenders..... the Indians came to know about their plans early and beat the Pakistani Generals to it (just like Nazis were beaten in the race towards the ABomb in WWII).................. Pakistani Nuke programme was an borne out of a desire for revenge and annihilation of India..........that is why PAki Generals and their leaders actively ALLOWED AQ Khan to use the military resources to undertake a massive espionage work.......and hence the Generals were co-conspirators in the nuclear proliferation..............................

the whole episode is a sick reminder of the dangers that Pakistan`s TNT presents to the world peace........after all OBL spouts a perverse form of TNT only................and that is why more than half the Pakistani population supports OBL...........

http://www.wisconsinproject.org/countries/pakistan/nuke-miles.htm

Pakistan Nuclear Milestones

The Risk Report
Volume 6 Number 5 (September-October 2000)

1955: Establishment of Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission (PAEC).

1965: Prime Minister Zulfikar Ali Bhutto announces ``If India builds the bomb, we will eat grass or leaves, even go hungry. But we will get one of our own.``

1972: Z.A. Bhutto gathers Pakistan`s top scientists at Multan, and orders them to build an atomic bomb.

1974: India tests a nuclear bomb.

1976: Dr. Abdul Qadeer Khan becomes director of the Engineering Research Laboratories at Kahuta.

1984: Kahuta enrichm
ent plant begins producing enriched uranium.

A possible origin botched and forgotten..

kaka`s father studied physics under a gentleman who was sent by Jinnah himself to America to study nuclear physics even before the partition, saying, `You`ll be my nuclear man`.

kaka`s father, who never was a fan of Jinnah, said further, `You see, Jinnah Saheb had it all planned ahead`. After the guy came back, Jinnah was no more and nobody else paid any attention and he was reduced to tutoring kaka`s father.

kaka heard this anecdote in `89 or `88. Why kaka is telling all you chutyas, kaka doesn`t know..

Re: # 56
So basically it boils down to these points

(a) you need great quantities of fissile material for an Uranium based bomb
(b) Uranium based devices are heavier - and the hence the untipped ranges of the Ghori,
Haft, Ghaznavi missiles found in the test would not be that useful unless tipped with Pu
bombs
(c) processing U-235 and its isotopes is environmentally more unfriendly and economically
more expensive that Pu Isotopes
(d) what you are suggesting indicates that if someone was processing Uranium Isotopes
they would be leaving fairly ugly finger and foot prints all over the place and are easily
detectable - unless the whole process in encased in a sealed lead container.

Which begs the question: Why were the likes of Libya Iran and others interested in these ugly processing machines! (including pakistan - maybe they are just a bit clever and are not using it in reality but processing Pu!)

Re: # 63 the quality of trust is the issue here urstruly.

the question people ask themselves is this: I can trust the brits, the yanks, the canadians etc. But can I trust the pakistanis, the arabs, the libyans, the egyptians etc?

If the answer is yes,then you have solved the problem. IMHO untill this trust deficit is resolved you will find, in your mind, inequities.

It would be interesting to know what AQK`s brother who lives in India thinks of his nuclear terrorist brother living across the border.

Re: # 64 janjua

I don`t think, among people of Pakistan, it has ever become an issue as to who contributed more towards the program. There are millions of Pakistanis, including me, who would kiss the feet of a sweeper who swept the streets of KRL. The real issues is whether it is honorable for a nation to allow a dictatorship to use national heroes as sacrificial lambs for their own corrupt political expediency?

The nations who have self-respect do not allow others to disrespect their heroes, neither do they do it themsleves. They remain grateful to their heroes for the greater good they cause and they overlook their human shortcomings. By the time Jefferson was writing `All men are created equal...`` for the US constitution, there were 500 black slaves toiling in the plantation of George Washington. But no one calls Washington a slave master. By todays standards that Americans have set for their political opponents, there remains no doubt that Washington was a terrorist but no one calls him that either. But those nations who have to endure vassalge of another nation, their psyche changes. And when the collaborator class becomes the rulers, their psyche does not allow them to view something independently. They always see things from their masters` perspective. As it is evident in the psyche of Pakistan`s ruling class.


Dr. Qadeer is human being too and may committ mistakes but the two accusations 1. He stole the technology 2. He proliferated technology without the knowledge of corrupt Generals are absolute lies.

#65 by r.a.janjua on December 1, 2005 9:51pm PT
“re: hp
this guy AlephLull is an idiot of the highest order - if wiki, high school calculus and serber`s `delightful` book were all that was needed, this world would be one dangerous place - but its good when people say that pakistan does`nt have nukes.”

This dolt lives in a fantasy world…His claim is that the Chinese gave the nukes to Pakistan and Chinese conducted the Pakistani nuke test and the tests never happened in Chagai, Balochistan…Talk about clueless and delusional.

Chinese have a soup kitchen where they dole out nuke bombs to the countries of their choice and no one else in the world knows about it-Not even the Americans. Only A-dull knows about this dark secret…what a dolt.

His fantasies don’t just end there…Sometime ago he was claiming that the Pak Army was planning to conquer and occupy ALL central Asia and perhaps Russia too and start a Pakistani Empire.

His game plan works like this; he goes to the net, copies the info-rephrases that and post that as his own…I have caught him before and I will continue to that until this dolt gets in to his senses… I just marvel at these idiots and clueless from across the Borders.

Re: # 72 HP

I think we should talk to them softly and reasonably. They are our mortal enemies but not our oppressors.

Re: # 67 hamzad

I do not doubt what you are saying. Mohammad Ali Jinnah became Quaid-e-Azam (The Great Leader) not because he appealed to our emotions but because he made his vision became the reality - Just like Dr. Q has. The handling of refugee crisis in a moth eaten Pakistan, initiating Jihad to liberate Kashmir and in fact liberating a part of it, and most of all laying the foundation stone of Pakistan`s military industrial complex i.e. Ordnance Factories which became the forebearer of our nuclear program. It really takes a leader to do all this in a country where in government offices workers were using thornes for common pins to attach documents.

janjua #64 ``the effort started in the 60s - this khota, a.q. khan made some contributions to the program but nothing compared to others - munir ahmad, samar mubarkmand - to name just two. why you guys never heard about the program itself? - because its never been politically correct to brag about these things.``

Very well put. But dont let facts stand in the way of Urstruly`s blind obedience to the half-brained maulvi ideology.

#72

Well then why dont you tell us:

- do the missiles have uranium warheads. If yes how much weapons grade uranium does Kahuta produce?
- If not where did the plutonium come from?

- If it all comes from Kaushab, how large is Kaushab? also open sources say Kaushab started functioning only in the mid `90`s. Is this false?

I looked at the link that Bakwas khan provided in his post #66

An article or posting is not authentic when the material facts in the article are not verified and are patently wrong. The Wisconsin Project is not a credible source on this issue because they did not verify the information they posted on their web site and now both A-dull-a proven liar- and this bakwas khan are reproducing it like some gospel truth.
Many things stand out like a sore thumb.

First lie:
“1965: Prime Minister Zulfikar Ali Bhutto announces ``If India builds the bomb, we will eat grass or leaves, even go hungry. But we will get one of our own.``

Bhutto was not prime minister of Pakistan in 1965. Every one knows that and any site which claims to publish the timeline of the Pak nuke project should have verified the info before posting it.

Lie 2: Bhutto did not make any statement as Foreign Minister in 1965 about eating grass and leaves. He made that speech in 1974 when he was the prime minister of Pakistan and it was after the Indian nuke tests.

Third Lie: 1972: Z.A. Bhutto gathers Pakistan`s top scientists at Multan, and orders them to build an atomic bomb.

There is no record of that meeting and why would Bhutto have this meeting in Multan of all places where there are no research labs or scientists of any kind. It is the same meeting that A-Dull mentioned in his post as taken place of all places under a Shamiana.. That is the biggest joke that I have read in a long time. Bhutto had access to some great facilities in Multan cantonment. He had access to the Circuit House and the Guest Houses all over Multan.

Bhutto was friends with the Qureshis of Multan and he loved to stay with them so that they could have drinks in the evening. The Qureshi house could have easily handled any meeting…Why under a shamiana?


Tahmed #75 and r.a.Janjua #64


“janjua #64 ``the effort started in the 60s - this khota, a.q. khan made some contributions to the program but nothing compared to others - munir ahmad, samar mubarkmand –“

There is lots of misinformation that is part of the effort to cloud the whole issue to keep it under control.

Dr. Munir Ahmed Khan had nothing to do with the Pak nuke bomb. Munir Khan was the chairman of the PAEC but he was not considered a good bet to help Pakistan in this area. I am not going to go into the reasons for this but he was not the person to lead this effort. That’s why Bhutto looked outside of Pakistan. Dr. Qadeer first wrote a letter to Bhutto and then met him personally and after long discussions between the GHQ and Bhutto he was selected to lead the effort, leaving both the PAEC and Dr. Munir Khan completely out of the loop. The PAEC was not even in charge of this project. The project was outside of PAEC overview and that irked Dr. Munir. AQ Khan hired scientists from the PAEC and two of them came from the Karachi Nuke plant. They were given separate employment contracts and were asked to never contact the PAEC on this issue. They resigned from the PAEC when they took up jobs with AQKhan.

Some of those scientists were later arrested with AQ Khan last year. All of them still have the Army guard posted at their homes and pictures of all visitors are still taken by the military intelligence despite the fact that most of these scientists had nothing to do with what happened with the so called Qadeer enterprise.

I certainly have more info on the working of the KRL. I wish I could post that all. Maybe someday that will happen.

#76 Bong
``Well then why dont you tell us:``

why should they tell you or anyone?

This program has always been under the top security and there is no reason to disclose the info for public consumption. But the people in IAEA and in the concerned US depts surely know that.

I am not well versed in nuclear stuff but my understanding is that India`s 1974 bomb was made from reprocessing spent fuel in Canada aided Tarapur atomic reactor. Canadian reactor was light water reactor unlike pressurized heavy water reactors India builds for its energy needs. Light water reactors need much more enriched fuel than heavy water reactors. India produces its nuclear bombs from reprocessing spent fuel.

India has very little natural Uranium for its own needs therefore import it. But India has largest deposit of thorium (found in sands of Kerala) India is building fast breeder reactors which uses Thorium as clad to uranium core. Reaction converts thorium into Uranium, thus these reactors produce more fuel that they consume
.

#77

Of course I dont expect GOP to tell me. I want your views on it.

``I want your views on it.``

Bong,

all views on this can only come from the GOP.