Church Lures Gujarat Tribals to Christ

Dear Farzana, Chowk Staff, and Chowkies, this is a serious alert ...

for an insidious assault on Chowkies` privacy. I believe that the previous administration, including member(s) of Chowk Staff have helped John Galt (aka JG or JagdeeshGodbole) in obtaining confidential information, such as e-mail and IP addresses, about certain Chowkies. This information has been shared with Saminasha and Scout and involves Temporal and a few other insiders. Not very long ago, a post was intercepted and it was clear that the intended victim was Dalit. Recently other victims have been myself, Queenie, and a couple of others seen as ``enemies`` by this gang of insiders. This information is discussed and exchanged in media outside of Chowk, such as e-mails and other websites and chatrooms.

While this is a breach of confidentiality and certainly against all norms of ethical conduct and possibly US laws, it is very difficult to prove in a court of law. You have to prove that the act was intentional, malicious, and resulted in tangible harm to the victims. Emotional distress is no longer a guarantee for conviction.

I have been using Anonymous IP software for a very long time to preclude my IP address from being divulged. Not that I care, but it is fun to have them think that I am in UK one minute, and then in Poland the next, while appearing in US, Canada, and even Germany during the day. Almost all my life is an open book and I really don`t care about people knowing more about me than they already do. But, I do not appreciate covert actions, behind my back, to use insider information and break a trust that was ostensibly established between Chowk and Chowkies. The identities and locations of Chowk Management are well known as are the ones for some of the criminal perptetrators. I hope they realize this.

If, however, any actual harm comes to me or my family as a result of John Galt, Temporal, Scout, or Saminasha`s despicable and immoral behavior, I will come looking for them. We can always start with Ms. McDonald and go from there.

So, here is my sincere request:
1. Chowk Management need to investigate and correct this obvious breach of confidentiality.
2. The pernicious activity by JohnGalt (JagdeeshGodbole), Temporal, Scout, and Saminasha needs to stop RIGHT NOW.
3. A simple apology from the perpertrators will suffice once this silly game is stopped.

Thanks,

One last comment. It may have been made by others, but it bears repetition.

About a decade ago, after a fairly intense internal debate, Christian missionary groups, most active of which tribe are the ones based in the US, made an epochal decision.

They decided to move away from their old cumbersome model of sending `white` missionaries to places like India. Instead, they resolved to work overwhelmingly through closely-monitored but well-trained and well-funded local agents.

On surface, it was a minor policy alteration. Yet missionary literature fully understood its future impact. The writers knew that in sheer economic efficiency, operational effectiveness, legal legerdemain, and moral deception, this move was the equivalent of a nuclear strike in their relentless demographic war against people of Indic religions.

Often times, numbers and compositions of populations are destiny. And lest we forget, we have only one India.

Didn`t feel like returning to this board because I knew there would be no new arguments here.

The ONLY thing that has to change is the Hindu response. When others have a good thing going against you they have no reason to alter course just because you don`t agree with them.

Obviously, we are not dealing here with people who belong to any mutual-respect society.

re:#178 by Urstruly
May be Pak had the earthquake because mullahs like Urstruly have now started quoting Bhagawat Geetha instead of sticking to their own book!
Sridhar

Re: #7 by stuka

[The Christian preists etc need a good ass-kicking. Hindu groups are doing a good job of re-conversion though. See, there are some advnatages of right wing Hindu groups as well. ]


I`m pleasantly surprised by your post.

Religion is inextricably connected to culture, for myriad reasons. If the church doors are open, and some inquisitive soul goes in to look for answers, and likes what he finds, and therefore converts, it NEVER causes problems in society (except in Islamic countries).

Because the general public realises it was a genuine change of heart. This kind of conversion is benign for another reason as well - this kind of true change of heart happens to only an insignificant number of people in the population, and therefore has no destabilizing effects in society.

What causes resentment in society is when poor people are specifically targeted in a calculated way on account of their financial vulnerability. The person converts, not because he was inquisitive, read the scriptures, and had a change of heart, but because of reasons that have to do with gratitude and/or subtle coercion - if I convert, I`ll be rewarded with a number of things like my neighbor - my son will get a good job etc. Also, the missionaries generate a feeling of alienation and hostility towards the previous religion and society.

Compassion needs to be there for compassion`s sake. The ``mission`` of the missionaries is to convert as many people as they can to Christianity. When there is a ``profit`` motive (conversion of as many people as possible), the public rightly percieves this as the religion of the rich countries using their money to
win over poorer sections of their society.


Keeping the church doors open is always welcome, and should be in any civilized nation. Going out and actively proselytizing while using your financial resources as bait should be condemned.

tahmed32#190:

I think that Jang got mixed up between Islam and Salam. While Islam means submission, Salam (or Hebrew Shalom) does, I think, mean peace.

HP: Cheers my friend. Thanks for speaking up for me. Not that cheap insults from these missionary-bashing thugs without any substance to back it up bothers me. :-)

#188 harimau - while thanking your for your effort in writing that lengthy gibberish (which i didnt read), let me congratulate you on your creativity: after 6 years of calling me a mullah, you finally discovered that wasnt working. so now in an extraordinary display of creativity for an rss thug, you start addressing me as terrorist. Seems like you half-brained rss thugs are easily terrorised!!

and that is why you rss thugs go go after christian missionaries, burn 12 year old girls in gujerat, and have been forming rss rat packs on chowk to go after Ferzana Versey for the crime of speaking out (fat good it has done you, she is the editor now!!). And disappear from chowk when behram comes after you in your own language, waving a sugarcane!!

#188 Thank you, harimau.

jang #189 The word Islam does mean submission per my understanding as well. If there are individuals who claim Islam means peace when in fact they know the word means submission then that is indeed hypocrisy.

But then..what`s in a name: ``jang``, e.g., means war - and from your posts it is obvious you dont come to chowk to pick quarrels (as some keyboard pehlwaans like to do). :-)

the biggest hypocracy is islam means peace..this is a subterfuge behind arabic .. islam means submission and let us all be proud of it. why bullshit?

Ref terrorist32 #89

[urstruly: (on my way out, but just say #87)....Yaa Khuda!! failing to find anything in the Quran to what he boldly claimed ``Islam said``, Urstruly has to dig into Judeo-Christian books to support his need to stone to death those he change their religion!! ]

Well, with this statement, you have promoted yourself from being just a mullah into a terrorist.

Just a few months ago, a Christian missionary group in Afghanistan was kidnapped aznd threatened with death by stoning for proselytisation activities.

So what if the Koran doesn`t explicitly say ``Kill the Apostates!``? It says enough about killing Kaffirs, does it not?

But this man goes around pretending that Islam is a religion of peace. Why is it that no Christian missionaries are allowed into Pakistan except on (closely-watched) medical missions? Why is it that the bishop in Lahore committed suicide right in front of the steps of the court?

Chacha Ahmad (as Gujju calls him) wants to have his cake and eat it too: he wants to live in the West while simultaneously practicing the vilest form of his religion. So he goes around saying ``Islam is the religion of peace`` while completely ignoring the murderous activities of the Islamist thugs around the world.

His black heart bleeds for the victims of the Kashmir earthquake but he has no tears to shed for the three hristian schoolgirls who had their throats cut in Indonesia. He wants his civil rights in the US and Canada but has nothing to say about folks who bomb bars in Bali. Don`t the Balinese have a right to run businesses?

Sicko! Psycho!

Just wait for this man`s daughter to attempt to run away with a gora who won`t convert to Islam. He is sharpening his knife for the eventuality.

Re: # 180

HP:

``that why Hindu faith is so weak that people convert for a few medicine or crumbs that churches throw their way. ``

its because the hindus are taught that all religions are true. they are different paths to the same god. whereas muslims and chirstians are taught that we you forsake allah/chirst you are going to burn in hell.

hindus should emulate muslims/chirstians. they should throw this garbage of ``all religions equal`` and be as aggressive as them: my way or the highway.

Urstruly (I hope Romair sees this …[wide grin]),

Here’s a brief summary of arguments, yours and mine.

Your views …

1. You’ve argued that Islam inherited details of earlier scriptures ... e.g. killing apostates, blasphemers, adulterers. You cited verse 6:90 to support your view.

2. You further argue that recorded ahadith indicate Prophet’s support for teachings of earlier scriptures. Thus (all?) details of Torah apply to Muslims as well.

My counter-arguments …

3. In 6:90, Quran suggests that earlier scriptures came from the same Source as Quran. A Muslim should therefore accept divinity of Torah. Actually this applies to teachings of Buddhism, Hinduism, Zorastrianism, etc. as well … but that’s somewhat of a different issue.

4. As Quran was revealed, it abrogated parts of earlier teachings, and offered new teachings (new book, new rules! So what’s the issue?). It admits to this in verse 2:106. Quran further clarifies that as it abrogates earlier teachings, it replaces them with better ones. Therefore details between Quran and Torah are bound to differ.

Along the same lines, Quran addresses blasphemy, apostasy, and adultery … and specifies how to deal with these issues. If Torah condones killing the perpetrators, Quran clearly offers different solutions.

5. Recorded ahadith getting corrupted is not rocket science. If Torah and New Testament can get corrupted (which you admit), historical accounts can be inaccurate (everyone accepts this), then why not books on ahadith? Most importantly, books on ahadith blatantly contradict the message of Quran. This should be a clue to the wise.

Lastly …

In our previous debate you argued relentlessly, but failed to make your case. You then abruptly ended the discussion.

Click []

You are now citing a new set of excuses. Chicken?

And ponder over the example I gave in #183 … it says a lot about you.

dullabhatti#182:

You do have a point, that is why I referred to Bible and not to the quran or the hadith, which have a better historical anchor. Just like Bible, claims are occasionally being made of diggings and other ``scientific`` evidence that are supposed to support Ramayan and Mahabharat. But, it is all a matter of faith as far as I am concerned.

Urstruly#179:

I have almost reached the limits of my knowlege of Hinduism, which is primarily based on Ramayan and Mahabharat. I would hope that a true believer like rsridhar or harimou can validate what I am saying.

The contradiction between the concept of Swarg/Nark and reincarnation has intrigued me as well and I have not really found a satisfactory explanation of this inconsistency. Unfortunately, I am not aware of any authoritative book on Hinduism where one can find definite answers to such questions. But I can share with you what I have been told.

But first some inaccuracies in your post. First, Krishna is not a mere deity for Hindus but God Himself, just like Jesus is for Christians. Secondly, the concept of Swarg and Nark is not extant but still coexists with the concept of reincarnation among the Hindus. While we refer to a dead man as ``Marhoom`` in Urdu, we refer to him as ``Swarg-vaasi`` in Hindi. In our language, when people went to offer condolence upon someone`s death, they would say ``Swargaan ch vaasa hos`` [may he find a place in heaven].

So, how are the two reconciled. Through the interregnum between death and birth. When a man dies, he can in some cases attain Moksha/Nirvana if his accumulated deeds over all his previous births qualify him for it. In such a case, his soul is freed from further cycles of rebirth and his atman (soul) finds union with Parm-atman (Supreme Soul). In other cases, the atman must find a new body -either human or animal if the soul has regressed- suitable for his next birth. This process takes 13 days during which time the soul rests in swarg or nark, depending upon one`s good and bad deeds. The Hindu process of mourning lasts for 13 days at which time a person`s kriya karm (kirya karam in Panjabi) is performed and the mourning ends.