Church Lures Gujarat Tribals to Christ

``If you believe the beneficiary is the ``individual``, then everything I am saying should make sense to you

I believe in this ...

``(i.e. let various religions compete for the individuals attention -``

which is precisely why I am not enamored of this..

`` and let the individual have the right to decide which religion appeals to him/her the most, and also to have the right to tell the hindu priest or the muslim maulvi or the christian priest to buzz since he is not interested in any religion). ``

And I do agree with this.

You see, since religion is for the benefit of the individual, I am 100% for individual choice, and therefore against the corporatization of religion.

``as for change in religion being illegal in Pakistan - I am shocked even you should have to ask such a question. Not only are people free to change their religion as they please in Pakistan (and in fact many do that routinely to pass some stupid religious law like forced retention of zakat from their savings accounts, or the prohibition on alcohol if you are a muslim). ``

Okay, I was simply asking. I know that it is illegal in many Islamic countries in the Arab world.

``As for the missionaries - just pray that some day our desi babus (whose definition of class is money) are able to achieve their level of commitment to public service. no mullah or hindu priest would be caught dead doing anything resembling public service like mother teresa or any other christian missionary. that is why they hate christian missionaries so much, and try to defame them at every opportunity.``

But that is also the other point I was making. Till the 70s, no Hindu group in India was doing anything comparable to what the Christian missionaries were doing. Now the Hindu groups have organized and they are doing the exact same thing. And the Church and Chrsitian groups are up in arms about that.

BTW, Ii would exclude Mother Teresa`s group because she was doing precisely the opposite of what the established church groups are doing ie: providing succour to all regardless of their faith. The Church groups OTOH only do so to those that accept Christianity as a faith.

stuka: i think we need to get to the basics here. And at heart is this very simple question: is religion for the benefit of the individual or for the benefit of God (or Allah or Brahman)?

If you believe the beneficiary is the ``individual``, then everything I am saying should make sense to you (i.e. let various religions compete for the individuals attention - and let the individual have the right to decide which religion appeals to him/her the most, and also to have the right to tell the hindu priest or the muslim maulvi or the christian priest to buzz since he is not interested in any religion).

If you believe the beneficiary is some deity, then nothing i say will make sense to you.

(if it helps to answer the above question, btw, ask yourself whether prayer - hindu, muslim, christian, doesnt matter - is for the benefit of the individual`s peace of mind, or it is to appease some deity`s needs to be told every day He/She is the mightiest of the mighty and so forth).

as for change in religion being illegal in Pakistan - I am shocked even you should have to ask such a question. Not only are people free to change their religion as they please in Pakistan (and in fact many do that routinely to pass some stupid religious law like forced retention of zakat from their savings accounts, or the prohibition on alcohol if you are a muslim). We have our own religious problems, but i think it is fair to say that no pakistani would write such a vicious article, let alone support it.

As for the missionaries - just pray that some day our desi babus (whose definition of class is money) are able to achieve their level of commitment to public service. no mullah or hindu priest would be caught dead doing anything resembling public service like mother teresa or any other christian missionary. that is why they hate christian missionaries so much, and try to defame them at every opportunity.

Re: # 8


``Poolani should dig deeper. In Narendra Modi`s Gujarat, a state that the RSS and its fanatic allies such as the VHP and the Bajrang Dal, no non-Hindu is safe``

hahahaha...

chitrebuwa,

a ``hindu`` like you is also not safe.

these missionaries are back again !!!

where is bajrang dal ???

If Hindus or Muslims are complaing about Christians converting the poor, than they should do a better job of selling their own religion to the poor (that is if they feel so strongly about the specific faith of people). Missionaries only succeed where others - governments, faiths etc. have failed.

I agree Roziaba. But when Hindu groups do exactly what Christian groups have been doing, it is called ``spreading hate``. Why? After all, if the Christians can open schools and give socio-economic help with religion attached, then so can Hindus. Hindus have targetted the same tribal groups for reconversion as Christians, and the Churches yelp and squeal about Hindu Fascism.

TAhmed:

`````` you wont find any pakistani on chowk berating christian missionaries in pakistan the way i see the ``educated babus`` like avkrishna in his post below, or the writer of this article.````


Are Christian missionaries allowed to convert Muslims in Pakistan? Ii believe that was illegal?

I am saying this as a Hindu and not an Indian. Hindus do not go out and convert people to other religions and I do not want Hindus to be converted either. If these people are concerned about doing humanitarian work, let them do it without converting people. Ootherwise, they should not bitcch and moan when Hindu groups target christians to be reconverted either.

Why does the Catholic church oppose VHP efforts to convert Christians if they have been doing the same for the past 50 years?

#15 rozaiba seems spot-on for me.

impressed by the missionary zeal, rss has a developed a campaign, very similar called Ekal Vidyalay and Vanavasi Ashram and they run schools, primary care etc in adivasi areas...hindvi must be very familiar since a while back there was a big issue that IDRF folks were collecting money from Cisco employees to promote hate thru these schools.

whichever way, if they get better quality of life, more power to them. missionaries however do have an extremely long and bloody history of decimating local cultures thoughout the world.

tahmed, why dont you invite some of these missions in pakistan as well? maybe raise funds for that purpose?

#15
If religion ceases to be a matter of personal dogma and crosses over into politics and becomes an ideology, it in turn becomes fair game for concerted political assault.
What we have oftentimes is not a fair market place of ideas. Some ideas are backed by a lot of money from rich countries and there`s no way you can compete with that.
Active proselytization with a political objective ought to be challenged.

Missionaries sell religion. Or salvation. If it`s more effective to sell it through development projects rather than say the tablighi-jamaat method of `convinving` so be it.

If Hindus or Muslims are complaing about Christians converting the poor, than they should do a better job of selling their own religion to the poor (that is if they feel so strongly about the specific faith of people). Missionaries only succeed where others - governments, faiths etc. have failed.

Personally I think missionaries are parasites.

# Tahmed 13

```` you say in #11 that you have nothing against these people converting to christianity, and yet you start #9 by applauding this article which is clearly against these people converting to christianity. You can do one, or the other, not both.````

I applaud this article because it`s high time we point out the decieving tactics used by Christian missionaries to convert Hindus and denigrate Hinduism. And yes, I clearly support trying to re-convert people who have converted into other religions. But it does not mean that I am against them or I hate them.


````And you end your post with a lie (that people are executed in pakistan for converting religion - when in fact there has not been a single such case).````

My statement was this:

```` You guys have the luxury of not having to do anything. With a religion that rewards it`s people who convert out with a death sentence as the majority, you dont need to engage in an ideological battle. ````

I never said X number of people in Pakistant got executed for converting out of Islam. I said with a religion, which can be used to justify executing people for converting, you guys have the luxury of not indulging in an ideological battle.

Actually Let me ask you this, I am sure Christican missionaries try to convert anyone into their religion. Are they doing the same thing in Pakistan? If so, how successful are they and what could be the reasons for their success/failure? If not, why?

My statement might have given the notion that the official version of Islam is this. To that extent, I withdraw my statement. BUt you very well know that how certain groups can interpret Quran and other books in a totally negative way.

``no point in wasting my time with you if you lack even the bare minimum of honesty.``

You are free to have your opinion,

Thanks and have a nice day too,
Avkrishna

avkrishna: you say in #11 that you have nothing against these people converting to christianity, and yet you start #9 by applauding this article which is clearly against these people converting to christianity. You can do one, or the other, not both.

And you end your post with a lie (that people are executed in pakistan for converting religion - when in fact there has not been a single such case).

no point in wasting my time with you if you lack even the bare minimum of honesty. have a nice day.

#2 rozaiba
If this was simply a matter of personal faith then there would be no arguments. What indians have learned is that as more and more northeastern tribals converted to christianity, the separatist movements also got stronger. Indians, as you can see, still remember the Partition.
Somehow the Koreans seem to have found a way to get along. There is some of the most regressive forms of fundamentalist christian churches (is there any other?) in south korea but they seem to get along fine overall. There is some repressed anger among the buddhists there but they seem to have put that aside for the moment in the pursuit of greater good.

#10 mullahji, ``hindu nonsense``? Is conversion out of islam allowed in pakistan?

Tahmend # 10,

``those people have every right to change their religion. ``

No one here is contesting one`s right to change their religion.

````they might even become better individuals and build up some self-esteem after being treated like dirt on account of their ``low caste``````

Nowhere it is mentioned that these people are being discriminated by other Hindus in this article. Your assumptions are baseless.


````if you ``educated hindus`` think like this have to be the most primitive, vicious individuals on earth. for whom it is more important to keep the shackles of your primitive culture on the weakest members of your sodity, than it is to respect their individual freedom.````

I dont want to keep shackles on anybody. I want to fight against my religion being denigrated by outsiders in my land. And I want to educate my fellow Hindus on this.


`````` you wont find any pakistani on chowk berating christian missionaries in pakistan the way i see the ``educated babus`` like avkrishna in his post below, or the writer of this article.````

I dont know why we need to compare to Pakistan on this. YOu are becoming a lot like your adversaries, trying to drag India-Pakistan into every issue ;-).

Nevertheless since you brought pakistan into the issue, let me say this. You guys have the luxury of not having to do anything. With a religion that rewards it`s people who convert out with a death sentence as the majority, you dont need to engage in an ideological battle.

But we need to, beacuse I dont like the alternative of indulging in more voilence against these generally peaceful missionaries. And We will,

Thanks,
Avkrishna

pathetic hindu nonsense. those people have every right to change their religion. they might even become better individuals and build up some self-esteem after being treated like dirt on account of their ``low caste``.

if you ``educated hindus`` think like this have to be the most primitive, vicious individuals on earth. for whom it is more important to keep the shackles of your primitive culture on the weakest members of your sodity, than it is to respect their individual freedom. those christian missionaries who open themselves for attacks from hindu extremists in order to help out the weakest members of hindu society deserve a lot of credit. you wont find any pakistani on chowk berating christian missionaries in pakistan the way i see the ``educated babus`` like avkrishna in his post below, or the writer of this article.

Poolani,

A great article. About time the Media starts focusing on these shady activities of Christian Missionaries..

As much a danger Islam was/is to Hinduism, Christianity as practiced by these Missionaries is a bigger menace and needs to be dealt with appropriately...

Can you also send me the links of Hindu groups who are spearheading this Reconversion project?

Thanks,
Avkrishna

Poolani should dig deeper. In Narendra Modi`s Gujarat, a state that the RSS and its fanatic allies such as the VHP and the Bajrang Dal, no non-Hindu is safe

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not even a liberal, an agnostic, an atheist, a humanist or a citizen committed to no sacred text other than the Constitution of India. Tribals, Denotified Tribals, Dalits, Christians, and every other marginalised or disenfranchised minority is a target of the BJP government. Zaheera Shaikh can be lured by an offer she cannot refuse. She could even be reconverted tomorrow. What would such a reconversion prove? The tenacity of saffron fascism in the world`s only pluralistic democracy? Poolani has done some disservice by building a one-sided report without providing a comprehensive perspective in a State in crisis.