Church Lures Gujarat Tribals to Christ

Re: # 133

Riots took place in Kerala following the activities of some foreign missionaries. They resulted in the loss of limb of the missionary, and a court order to leave.

In Orissa too, a missionary was burnt alive and peace talks were held between the extremist groups.

Re: # 133

India will have a lot more time for development if it stopped being religious.

Only the VHP and the christian missionaries know what they decided upon. I am only infering that the VHP knows this is happening and is willing to let it go, particularly with a BJP in government, which can be blown away if the VHP so want it.

The ground reality is that people are being converted. And Modi is doing nothing to stop it.

Re: # 132
You said in 126 The second being that a compromise between the VHP and christian missionaries talked about a few months ago were only being given effect.
and again in 131 Can you tell me what the christian organisation compromised with the VHP in its talks following similar conversion related riots?
That is what I am asking as I have not heard of any compromise or even any meeting to discuss compromise between VHP and others.
Neither I have heard about conversion riots in ahmedabad or other cities of Gujarat.
You do agree that there is not relation in being atheist and prosperous.

Re: # 131

Can you tell me what the christian organisation compromised with the VHP in its talks following similar conversion related riots?

Re: # 126
I wonder from where you get your information. Modi has not buckeled from international or ngo pressure. He is going strong as ever in gujarat.
Conversions happened in gujarat before BJP or Modis times and they are happening as we speak now. Its illegal under Indian Law to stop conversion.
I have not heard about any compromise by VHP/Missionaries.
Its misleading to quote chinese example to relate prosperity with being athetist as people can cite more examples to properous religious countries like japan and usa. China has only recently cross $1000 per capita income and according to that standard there are countries like malaysia (muslim) and thailand (buddhist) can be considered prosperous.

tahmed takes southern-baptist hate-pamphlets in stride, but talk of a lemon, wo dulle se ruth gaya.

its just a sales metaphor tahamed ;-)

I mean #54..... not #25.

I read #25 and give analogy of lemon car that if one is lied to convert and then later on finds out the lie and even if can convert back....it does not matter, damage has already been done...similar to the car that will now sell for half the price. Read #25 and then my analogy. My analogy is in direct response to #25.

#120 You are acting very touchy...I swear to My God that when I gave the example of lemon car I was not refering to your religion but explaining the concept of being tricked/bribed/duped in general and that too in holiest of all things on earth a religion. Do I think at times Islam is a lemon religion? yes I do...(so here it is if I had to say that I will say that clearly not through analogies). But not while giving this analogy...This analogy was simply to make one emphathize with the feeling of getting bribed or cheated....something that you clearly stated was ok to do while offering someone conversion..or at least conversion from Hinduism since that is beneficial to the converted, and hence it is ok to benefit him even if missionaries end up bribing him.

re other post...if you know bolded words are not yours, I know and clarify they are not yours, other readers who are reading this know you did not say those words, then How am I misrepresenting your views?

Re: # 113

Poolani, there are several theories behind Gujarat being open to conversions. The first being of course that Modi himself was subject to pressures from the international fora for the riots there.

The second being that a compromise between the VHP and christian missionaries talked about a few months ago were only being given effect.

Whatever the reason, the blind follow the blind.

China is the best example I can think of as an atheist country which flourished.

If India stopped being religious, it might just stop being poor too.

Re: # 113

Poolani, there are several theories behind Gujarat being open to conversions. The first being of course that Modi himself was subject to pressures from the international fora for the riots there.

The second being that a compromise between the VHP and christian missionaries talked about a few months ago were only being given effect.

Whatever the reason, the blind follow the blind.

China is the best example I can think of as an atheist country which flourished.

If India stopped being religious, it might just stop being poor too.

Urstruly (#111),

You ignore the possibility that books of ahadith too suffered corruption, just like Torah and New Testament did. And that’s only one example of gap in your reasoning.

You listed two criteria to verify authenticity of Biblical scripture: (1) Quran, and (2) words/actions of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) (presumably as recorded by historians).

What if these two criteria contradict each other? On several issues Quran says one thing, but according to recorded ahadith, the dear Prophet (pbuh) did the opposite. You are blowing smoke when you ignore blatant contradictions between Quran and recorded ahadith.

Furthermore, Quran modifies divine law in relation to earlier scriptures, as it addresses the entire mankind for all times to come. As I pointed out (post #94), Quran admits to such changes and to abrogation of parts of earlier teachings as needed.

In short, your reasoning defies reality and fails to add up.

#113 Poolani
You brought up an important topic that has generated some interesting discussion. Interactions on any board in this forum since it is unmoderated tend to meander, so what?
If you`re concerned about quality, then rest assured that it`s not your fault. tahmed32 has the uncanny ability to turn any board into a pig sty..

If religion were just a private club for loonies and the misguided and those being taken advantage of, carrying on its practices behind closed doors with its incense and its candles and its dressing up and its peculiar rituals and its collections, that would be okay, more or less.

But it isn`t just a private club. It has taken custody of ``good``. Religion claims the right to determine what is good, and what is bad/evil, and it appropriates unto itself the right to tell the rest of us what to think and how to think on various subjects, and what `being bad` is.

To claim to speak with authority on behalf of a god on various subjects when the reality seems to be that they are just making it up on the back of an old envelope on a whim and they grab any old text and claim that text is the word of a god is fundamentally dishonest.

If religion can`t say, hand on heart, ``this is definitely what a god thinks, he told us so``, then they should shut up and stop making it up.

It is unfortunate that most religous comments to not contain the warning (even in small print): this or that is just a theory and may in the fullness of time be proved to be completely untrue or completely or partially true... we just don`t know at the moment and theologists are working on proofs but for the past 10,000 years have failed to find them. Noneless most monks, priests, churchwardens and choirboys think that for the time being it is seems a plausible theory even though plenty of people think it implausible, but hey their opinions aren`t worth a row of beans because ``generally accepted religious opinion`` overrides scepticism until the weight of evidence causes a theory to be regarded as untenable... eg `an eye for an eye` as defunct compared to flavour of the decade, the `turn the other cheek` ideology, but both are equally admissiblable and merely ideologies, yet the latter appears to be more acceptable, though the former was more acceptable in earler centuries. Priests who changed their minds and who now believe the `eye for an eye`ideology were of course misled and misleading earlier generations of students by wasting their time on something hardly anyone believes in nowadays. The religious community apologises in advance if by the time you read this text, the theory is disproved and replaced by something else... you will be credited for your time studying the history of religion and the daft theory which we now find amusingly naive, of which this may be one, or then again it may not, in which case you heard it first from us.``

It amuses me that the church - not known for its support for homosexuals - has been run by them for centuries.

Being a priest was one of the only ways of hiding your indifference to women in society without getting a red hot poker rammed up your jacksie.

... and let`s not forget nuns.

Why is it that religious people get very excited at finding a line in the holy book prohibiting homosexual acts, but they go all quiet when you point out the bits that talk about blood sacrifice or killing members of your own family to show your love of God? Sanctimonious cherry pickers, the lot of them.

We are put in this club or that (Muslim, Christian, Protestant, Church of the Yellow Rabbit) before we can think for ourselves. There, often, we tend to stay, even once we can think for ourselves. The music may be rather nice. The social gatherings may be rather nice. What being religious (and therefore righteous?) says about us may be rather nice. Too nice to leave, whatever we believe.

One has to distinguish between (a) being in a particular club (a matter of social convenience and status) and (b) believing what the club pretends to believe (an entirely different issue).

At a guess, probably most members of any particular religion don`t actually believe what the religion pretends to believe, but that isn`t a bar to attendance or membership. The more the merrier. So the farce that religion is, continues.

Children are the most influencible and that is why most religious target children to ingrain their blind beliefs, which become hard to erase later in life.

Seeing the direct and indirect religious conflicts around the world, should nt there be a minimum age, say 16, after which children can be exposed to this `opium` of the masses?

The problem with debates on religion is that they turn into an ``us-versus-them`` affair with all secularists branded as unreconstructed atheists and enemies of the faith, and all believers as irrational and fanatical. You cannot compare religion with science, but only with other religions. Political religion is a real danger in the future.

Will the world ever manage to get rid of religion? Probably not. We are stuck with it.
I am always shocked when those who consider themselves to be `intelligent` (I am thinking of Bush and Blair, among others) continue to believe that their lives are controlled by a man who lives in the sky.

If an alien landed from another planet and was told `I have never seen God, I just know he`s there, and he can see what everyone is doing at the same time, and I go into a building and sing songs to Him..` they would faint with incredulity.
Not to mention `when I am dead, I will carry on living, if I behave myself now`...

Unfortunately people who believe this sort of stuff have the ear and maybe heart (if not brain) of the world`s only remaining super-power. Christianity doesn`t have the monopoly on religious bigots. Religion and its obsession with genitalia may be mildly amusing at first glance....but sadly I don`t think it`s harmless and I don`t think it`s going away.

Re: # 119
tahmed32, you have made up the mind the any hindus posting on this forum is a blind to the problems posed by caste discrimination even though many (or all) hindu chowkies are against it.
People like me or avkrishna have continously agreed that indians have right to change the religion and also indians have right to propogate their religion. But what we are against is lies, bribes and cheating by missionaries to convert people including insulting hinduism.
You are the one who brought pakistan in this discussion in post #10. The blasphemy laws of pakistan make it very difficult for missionaries to convert while there are no such laws in India and thus you cannot compare between issues raised by hindus and pakistani.

dullabhatti - you are totally confusing, sir. you bring up the lemon car analogy in trying to tell me that islam is a lemon. i respond to it, and now you ask me to leave religion out of it.

you write a post that clearly misrepresents my views, and instead of apologizing you claim it wasnt supposed to represent my views.

i am disappointed since i expected a more intelligent response from you. that is all.