Church Lures Gujarat Tribals to Christ

#32 ``This is a massive effort both by Catholic church as well as other denomications to target and proselytize others``

nothing wrong with that. unless you know better than the low caste people what is good for them. and if you think that is wrong, then the answer is to compete with the christian missionaries for hearts and minds. the answer is not to weave conspiracy theories (as you are doing), or to defame the missionaries who are doing stuff you would never deign to do, but to learn something about public service from these missionaries.

samosa: as i said, you can go around wearing a halo, ignoring the ugly realities of india. i point to mukhtar mai because i am not prepared to ignore the ugly realities of pakistan.

# 33

````nothing wrong with that. unless you know better than the low caste people what is good for them. and if you think that is wrong, then the answer is to compete with the christian missionaries for hearts and minds.````

That is exactly what we intend to do both by alleviating the current status of backward classes through official channels as well as supporting Hindu groups who fight the Chirstian missionaries on the same turf i.e. reconversion.. U seem to have a problem with that, I don`t know why.

```` the answer is not to weave conspiracy theories (as you are doing), or to defame the missionaries who are doing stuff you would never deign to do, ````

When Pope himself comes to India and declares from Delhi that his aim is to proselytize India, there is no need for me to invent any conspiracy theory..

I only intend to expose those missonaries who denigrate my religion for the sake of his..

```` but to learn something about public service from these missionaries. ````
I was never against that and you are right. They do perform a great service which needs to be appreciated and emulated to the extent possible by others,

Thanks,

Re: # 33
That is what hindu groups are doing is trying to bring the low caste people out from the injustice and to win their hearts and minds.
So pointing out the truth about tactics used by missionaries to convert people is weaving conspiracy theory and defaming them.
You dont think that the goal of missionaries working in India is to convert people. Graham staines who was killed in India had to report back to the church in australia about the number of people he converted just like a salesman to report to his supervisor about his sales.

Re: # 34
No one is ignoring ugly realities but i want to know the basis of your statement that desi community looks down on weakest member of society in India.

Poolani:

Thanks for starting a debate on an imporant subject. Most of the points I wish to make have already been made by stuka and others. Still, here is my thinking on this issue.

Freedom of faith is meaningless if it does not mean freedom to change one`s faith, too. I believe that the Indian constitution gives freedom to practice as well as propagate one`s religion, which implies that missionary activities are well within the law.

I happen to believe that missionary activities are good for Hindus, too. The sword of conversion is needed for the Hindu society to get rid of its ailments, so that there is no social incentive for anyone to leave the Hindu fold.

I also believe that Muslims, Christians and Pseudo-Marxists have no reason to complain when Hindu missionaries start to imitate Christian Missionaries and are providing medical, educational and social services to the tribals to prevent their conversion or to reconvert them. If in the process of competitive missionary activities, the lot of the poor tribals improves in some ways, so much the better for both tribals and India.

While individual conversions are fine, what about group conversions? In that case, it is quite clear that the conversion is not due to a change in faith but because of socio-economic factors. Should such activity be subject to state regulation?

I wish people had not brought Pakistan in this debate since it has openly declared itself to be an Islamic Republic and should not be judged by the same criteria that a secular republic should be judged with. But since it has been brought, it is legitimate to ask how many Muslims in Pakistan have declared themselves Murtaad since 1947 and lived to tell the tale? Given the bad publicity that Islam is getting in the world these days, there must be some who are tempted to find another religion superior to Islam. Please do not give unverifiable facts, such as my neighbour, my teahcer or someone else did it. Can someone tell about a well known case of a Muslim who converted to another religion in Pakistan? Hypothetically, what would happen to Shoaib Akhtar if he declared that he has converted to Christianity? I am quite aware that many Muslims openly declare themselves to be an atheist, but Muslims somehow do not find this as offensive as someone saying that he now believes that Mohammad was a pretender and not a real prophet. In my understanding of Islam, both should be Murtaad.

Notwithstanding the previous para, I am not aware of any laws in Pakistan against conversion to another religion. However, the fact that sharia courts have constitutional validity would, in my opinion, make it a grey area in Pakistan, if it ever came to the courts. Once again, I should emphasise that a declared Islamic Republic should not be judged by the same criteria as a state which is proud of its secular credentials.

Re: # 37 DM
Mostly everyone would follow similar line of thoughts.
Indian constitution gives freedome to practice as well propagate ones faith. But does this allow foreigners to do the same. Can there be different rights for foreigners and Indian citizen?
Most people are agast to foreigners converting people by lies and bribes.

samosa#38:

Is there a law against foreing missionaries? If not, they have the right to do their missionary activities. In actual fact, I believe that India is now a big exporter of christian priests to countries like Canada, where church is not a very popular profession.

If India does not want foreign missionaries, all it has to do a pass a legislation banning them, as several countries have done. But doing so would create an image problem for India.

Dost-mittar #37: ``as a state which is proud of its secular credentials.``

I have never quite been able to figure out this line of thinking. Could you explain, why someone should be, ``proud`` of their secular credentials. Or their religious credentials. Or their capatilist credentials. Or their socialist credentials. Or any other kind of credentials, including their Hindu or Muslim credentials that they may possess..........

When people start becoming, ``proud`` of some kind of credential, aren`t they declaring their superiority over others, for no reason? Isn`t it better to simply have credentials, without being proud of them? And just live like decent human beings, and just be nice to each other. Without highlighting one`s credentials........

I have met so many people who are unnecessarily proud of their Hindu or Muslim or secular or athiest credentials. Including many on this site. And yet I have found jerks amongst all such groups, individually and at a group level........In fact, when I go to some country or meet some, I try not to look at their credentials, and just judge them by how nice they are to me...........

I think it is the being, ``proud`` part that is the problem, not the credential part...........

Re: # 39
Indians priest do not go to proselytize. India does control the number of missionaries but many comes to india as tourist and are engaged in proselytizing.

#35 krishna ``as well as supporting Hindu groups who fight the Chirstian missionaries on the same turf i.e. reconversion``

some hindus burnt a missionary and his two young sons to death some years ago. you make no mention of that action. do you condemn that as being a cowardly, criminal murder by hindu extremists?

krishna: you accuse these missionaries of denigrating your religion - do you have any proof of it? anything on the web put up by these missionaries? I realize there is plenty of garbage on the web by extremists of all kinds - hindus, muslims, christians - but do you know of even a single missionary who maintains such a website?

and on #43, if you dont have proof - then that is proof that it is you who is defaming these missionaries.

# 42,

Yes, Unequivocally.

Thanks,

# 43 and # 44,
So the burden of proof you are asking from me is to point out the websites of missionaries. I am sorry and you might think this is cop out, but I dont intend to prove it that way...

Not only that I don`t have time to spend Googling this now..

The proof I have is the personal (first hand and second hand) experiences I had, while growing up, with some of the Missionaries/Christians who tried to preach their religion to me..

Thanks,
Avkrishna

Re: # 44 tahmed
Christian groups maintain website if not individual missionaries. Do some google and you will ultimately get your proof. Meanwhile I still havent found out how you found about that desi community looks down on weakest member of society in India.
Just one small example of views of a missionary.

To begin, Robertson`s experiences in Rajahmundry are described by a narrator. The scene is of a poverty-stricken people, bathing in the river at the head of which rests a statue of Lord Siva. Water is pouring out of Siva`s head and a snake is wrapped around his head as well. Robertson and his son are found in the midst of the scene, observing and mocking the early morning prayers of Hindus.