Church Lures Gujarat Tribals to Christ

samosa: i already gave you an example of desis looking down on the downtrodden - mukhtaran mai.

here is another example - on chowk, you will see indians mocking pakistanis by posting pictures of poverty stricken people in pakistan, and pakistanis mocking indians by posting pictures of poverty stricken people in india. does this indicate any sympathy for the downtrodden - the same kind of downtrodden people whom christian missionaries try to help? i dont think so.

samosa: the fact that you have to point to a nut like Robertson shows you dont have any basis for claiming that christian missionaries mock hinduism. And suppose (for the sake of argument) they did. so what? hindus mock islam, and muslims mock hindus every day on chowk.

what is it so damned important to you that some hindu does not become a christian? what business is it of yours anyway?


and the fact is that christian missionaries are dedicated to making life a little easier for the downtrodden in india. while hindu and muslim extremists (the ones most opposed to these christian missionaries) are dedicated to making life miserable for those unfortunate enough to be their targets - like the communal killings in india, the sectarian killings in pakistan, the burning of two churches a few days ago in pakistan.

#50 tahmed, robertson is not a nutcase.. he raises BILLIONS of dollars and is a main-stream moral-majority christian. baptists (religion of bill clinton and jimmy carter) routinely publish pamplets on occasions like diwali..

``More than 900 million people are lost in the hopeless darkness of Hinduism…Pray that Hindus who celebrate the festival of lights would become aware of the darkness in their hearts that no lamp can dispel.``

``Mumbai is a city of spiritual darkness. Eight out of every ten people are Hindus, slaves bound by fear and tradition to false gods…Satan has retained his hold on Calcutta through Kali and other gods and goddesses of Hinduism. It’s time for Christ’s salvation to come to Calcutta.``

you being you will prolly think this is not denigrating..(rolling eye icon)

Re: # 50
tahmed32, I do not mind if a hindus becomes christian and follow any other religion. I am against conversion process that start with lies and bribes. And that is what most of the missionaries do.
Chowkies who post poverty stricken pictures of pakistan or indians are not really mocking the people but poverty. Usually that kind of diatribe starts with I am better than you and the other shows no you are not. But no one in desi communities hates any downtrodden people from either country. while you take this an example for labelling the whole desi community but you forget the selfless charity performed by desis during tsunami, gujarat earthquake and even during kashmir earthquake where pakistani doctors from US, US and Canada went to Kashmir to treat the victims.
You might find robertson a nutcase but he depicts an average evangelist person viewpoint.

jang: Robertson rails against Islam at least as much - and probably much more so - than hinduism. So what? This is what freedom of speech is all about. That is no reason to discourage missionary activity - and if some people believe what he says and become christians, what goes it of you (to resort to the vernacular)?? :-)

samosa #52 If someone is willing to be ``bribed`` into changing religions, that is his or her choice. If someone is lied into converting, then he/she is free to change back when he/she discovers the lie. And can you any example of such a lie??

tahmed32:

I have said in my earlier post that I am all for missionaries of all kinds doing something for the uplift of the downtrodden even if they sell the snake oil of religion in the process. However, your and ali-1`s interacts seem to suggest that the only way of salvation for poor Hindus is to get out of their religion. Would you give the same prescription to thousands of Mukhtaran Mais of Pakistan or haris who suffer every bit as much humiliation and persecution as the lower castes in India? Or to all Muslim women who do not get equal status under Islamic law? I wouldn`t be surprised if the thought has never occurred to you, and rightly so. The solution to the social problem is social awakening, religious reform and political empowerment, not religious conversions; any other course would be inconsistent with your claim of all religions being basically good. For this purpose, if the problem is the caste system, then it should be one`s duty to fight that system, not religious conversion. I might have agreed with your prescription if the converted Hindus from the lowest castes were able to improve their socio-economic status in the society, which is not the case in india. In fact, this does not seem to be the case in Pakistan either where low-caste Hindus who converted to Christianity at the time of Partition are still derisively referred to as Choorhas and Bhangis, even by some Pakistani elite at chowk.

dm #55 what i am arguing for is not conversions, but in the right of the individual to convert if he/she wishes. that is all, so please dont read more into it than what i am saying.

and i never claimed that pakistanis were saints. i was in fact referring to the mukhtaran mai case as an example of this ``desi babu`` disgusting attitude of looking down on the weak and downtrodden in society. i recognize the ugly realities of pakistan. you are not just not recognizing the ugly realities of india (at least in this case), you are actually defending them!

Re: # 54
You want an examples of lies:
1.] Priest would take the kids at orphanage for a picnic in a bus. While returning the bus would suddenly stops. The priest would tell the kids to ask for assitance from hindu gods. They would but still the bus would not start. And finally the priest would tell kids the ask Jesus for asssitance and miraculously the bus starts.

I can quote more from my experience easily.
Even the revered mother teresa would baptize peoples who are about to die without their approval or knowledge.

If you think lying and bribing people is okay then I do not know what else to say.

Re: # 56
tahmed32, no one (atleast not me) is against the right of individual to convert if he/she wishes. All I am against is bribing, lying and cheating people to convert. Just like pointed out in this article about white powder (i.e. crocin or anacin). while it seems you are okay with that.

# 46
I took offense to the tactics they used and how my religion is demeaned in that process. Not the objective..

Since you have asked me all these questions, let me ask you one...

What is your objection to the Hindu groups using the same tactics and trying to re-convert the people back from Christianity? Your posts seem to indicate that you dont like anyone converting into Hinduism. (correct me if I am wrong),

Thanks,
Avkrishna

samosa: #58 People have a right to be cheated if they want. :-) That is what a free society is all about. And that is what 70 years of experimenting with socialism has taught the world.

So, unless some activity does clear and direct physical harm to someone or to someone`s property, one should let the individual have the right to decide for himself on such personal matters as religion.

tahmed32:

I am not denying the ugly realities of India, only differing with you that conversion is the solution to that ugliness. Nor am I suggesting that you are denying the ugly reality of Pakistan. But what I am saying is that you do not suggest the same remedy for removing the ugliness of Pakistan as you do for India. I specifically gave the example of Islamic laws which do not give equal rights to women. I am aware that you do not agree with that aspect of Islam but have you ever suggested that women should rebel against Islam and convert to another religion to seek a better status? No, you haven`t and rightly so and have correctly pointed out that Muslims should ignore Islamic laws and concentrate instead on what you believe to be its essential message. You might want to give the same advice to Hindus and ask them to get rid of their caste system rather than asking them to get rid of their lower caste people.

avkrishna #59 I dont have a problem with hindus trying to convert people, as long as they try to convince the other person. I said that early on in the discussion. That is how the european jews are supposed to have become jewish - the inhabitants of the black sea area invited a christian, a muslim and a jew to convince their king, who then decided he preferred judaism.

All i am saying is that the same right accorded to that king be accorded to everyone.

dm: again, i am not saying the hindus should convert, so i wont say muslim women should convert. what i am saying is that everyone - including hindus, including muslims - has the RIGHT to convert if he/she thinks that is in his/her best personal interest. I am sure the good Lord doesnt care - why should you or I?

tahmed32:

``what i am saying is that everyone - including hindus, including muslims - has the RIGHT to convert if he/she thinks that is in his/her best personal interest. I am sure the good Lord doesnt care - why should you or I?``

And who disagrees with that statement?