Church Lures Gujarat Tribals to Christ

kaurasach #80 Do you have any basis for saying that hindus are converting to sikhism in pakistan since the environment is more hostile to hindus?

And how do you explain individuals like Dinesh Kaneria (popular cricket player, Pakistani hindu) and Bhagwan Das (Pakistani hindu, appointed acting chief justice of the Pakistan Supreme Court; judge responsible for trying and sentencing to a jail term on corruption charges a former Commander in Chief of the Pakistan Navy)?? And how do you explain the warm reception that thousands of Indian hindus received when they visited Pakistan last year?

Ref Mullah32 #10

[...you wont find any pakistani on chowk berating christian missionaries in pakistan the way i see the ``educated babus`` like avkrishna in his post below, or the writer of this article.]

Of course not.

The missionaries don`t engage in conversion activities in Pakistan. The punishment for that is death by stoning.

As to accepting the freebie services, after all the dhimmies owe it to the People of the True Faith.

Also, I await your explanation on the other questions i asked in #79. Thanks in advance.

Thank you, harimau.

urstruly: I hope you are busy perusing the Quran to find support for your statement per my request, and that is why you have not yet come back with a response.

the b1tch against conversions in indian is the fear of separatism. this is somewhat misguided imo. north-east separatism has reasons other than religion. e.g. bodos are hindus. in south, there is a lot of conversion to christianity, some from other forms of christianity (e.g. syrian orthodox)..there is no known separatism emanating from that. same is true of centra indian tribals.

in old days, when the modern indian nation was new, the converts used to have this sense of alianation because of language and the new-found ``skills`` assiciated with it. e.g. these converts would learn the guitar or piano, and not nadaswaram or the bharatnatyam. now, english is not that big a deal..and more christians are comfortble with learning whatever instrument they please. so the bogey of separatism is misplaced imo.

so, while i think all this conversion stuff is stupid and definately would oppose denigration of religion as a sales-trick, there is not problem with allowing conversions at all, and that is essentially the indian state and more or less indian society view...conversions are legal and happen all the time. commies are against hindu missionaries.

#77

Holy Prophet (pbuh) has re-validated the Judo-Christian law on apostasy by his actions and spoken word - law that demands the death penalty for apostasy - through the manadate given to him by Allah himself through verse 6:90 (The Cattle v90: ``Those were the (prophets; refrring to atleast 20 prophets who are mentioned by name in the preceding verses) who received Allah`s guidance: Copy the guidance they received; Say: ``No reward for this do I ask of you: This is no less than a message for the nations.``



So Holy Prophet made it mandatory to ``Copy the Guidance`` of the Judo-Chrsitian law is it is stated below:


For following another religion: Exodus 22:20 states: He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed. See also and Numbers 25:1-15.

For proselytizing (conversion): Deuteronomy 13:1-10 states that a person who tries to convince an Israelite to convert to another religion must be killed.

I have to go now. Look forward to enlightening responses from kaura and urstruly. (and harimau, you too may write a post to mullah32, if you wish. i dont want you to feel left out simply on account of the fact that you did not wash your face this morning).

urstruly: (on my way out, but just say #87)....Yaa Khuda!! failing to find anything in the Quran to what he boldly claimed ``Islam said``, Urstruly has to dig into Judeo-Christian books to support his need to stone to death those he change their religion!!

Urstruly:

Are you suggesting that Hindus should also decree death for anyone who converts to another religion or tries to convert a Hindu? Do you realise that this means that neither you nor tahmed would be a Muslim today?

Tauheed,

The news of these conversions are common; i am too busy these days......thus the long absences from CHOWK.....and my half finished posts.......

anyways GOOGLE it. Tribune carried a detail news on this......


Solitary examples like the cricket man and the judge....while hundreds are forced to convert is a ``Wahizaat`` gull.......

Google Leiah (on indus banks; try different spellings).......entire Hindu population was converted by threats and abductions.....handful escaped to Haryana.......

For conversions in Bangladesh, go to Mukto Mana org.....it has pictures too.....

Warm Reception is a hospitality thing amongst muslims.....In the frontier areas, even an enemy is given hospitality......before he is butchered.......it is muslim thing......doesn`t amount to much......

When i have free time, I am writing about this stark difference between muslims and non muslims.......

YES........at least SIKHS should have a decree to the effect.......here is the reason.....


Ranjit Singh ( a villain (or at least a selfish fool) and failure in my book) should have converted muslims back......``sikhi or death``.....paid back in the same currency as Abdali, Aurangzeb, Mir Mannu etc......

Had he done that, (most would have converted without resistance).......NO muslim majority in Punjab, NO PakiSATAN, NO loss of millions of innocent lives......

He was a `secular` and angel compared to muslim monarchs......


What did it earn him, his progeny or sikhs?

The plate pissers forgot his secularity overnight.......

This is the muslim strategy to survive and thrive......lie low (or if necessary, bootlick) when the opponent is strong......breed......wait for the opportunity......forget.....and wipe them out when you are strong.....that is Why islam and muslims have spread across the globe.......

same strategy is being used in the West and US.......Paris riots are the latest.....

Hindus also converted to islam either by force....or in uncommon cases for favors......or they gave away their daughters to save themselves or their interests..........

Some convert to marry muslim girls or boys.....

Most emplyees converted to islam during mughals....made lives easier....and won favors.....

that is why most artisans in India are `muslims`......

Aurangzeb tried to convert ``bhai nand lal Goya....who fled to the protection of the Guru - and later compiled the best Persian poetry in sikh literature.....most were not so lucky.......

In Bangladesh, prominent Hindu merchants are converting to save their properties.......

Urstruly (#87),

Earlier we had a similar debate … where you tried to validate Torah over Quran. This earlier debate was on the issue of adultery. As usual, you supported killing the perpetrator. As I pointed out Quranic verses which contradicted your position, you danced around the issue.

Quran on apostasy

Quran addresses apostasy in several places and not even once mentions any worldly punishment for apostates. Rather, in one place Quran mentions that if a person leaves Islam, and later reverts back to Islam, Allah will be most forgiving towards him. Killing this person for apostasy, which you support, would leave no possibility of this person returning back to Islam.

Quran validating earlier scripture

Verse 6:90 applies to the general teachings of Torah and those of other earlier scriptures. All revealed religions have the same Source, and therefore their message is fundamentally the same.

These religions differ from each other in details, as each religion was tailored to the needs of specific people, for specific times. As Quran addresses all people for all times to come, it introduced new details in divine Law, abrogating the earlier ones as needed. This principle is highlighted in the verse 2:106, where Quran says … None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar …”

I am of the view that you are misinterpreting 6:90, while ignoring 2:106 and other Quranic verses dealing with apostasy. Here’s the link to our earlier debate:
Click []

kaurasach:

I googled and this is what I found. Of course, our Muslim spinmasters will claim that these are not true Muslims. True Muslims merely sit quiety while they let `naqli` muslims do their dirty deeds and leave them to issue pious sermons to non-muslims.

``Karachi: An alarming trend — that of Muslims kidnapping Pakistani Hindu girls and forcing them to convert to Islam — in Pakistan’s Sindh province is forcing the worried resident Hindu community to marry off their daughters as soon as they are of marriageable age or to migrate to India, Canada or other nations.

Recently, at least 19 such abduction cases have occurred in Karachi alone, while several others have been reported in the media.

Sanao Menghwar, a Hindu resident of Karachi’s Punjab Colony, is a traumatised man; all three of his daughters —Aishwarya, Reena and Reema — have been kidnapped and forced to convert to Islam.

In the police complaint that he filed at the behest of the Panchayat after two days of futile searching for his daughters, he stated that when he and his wife returned home from work, they discovered their daughters had gone missing.

The police arrested three Muslim youths in connection with the crime, who were later granted bail by a court because they’re minors. Menghwar’s daughters continue to remain missing.

“Kidnapping Hindu girls like this has become a normal practice. The girls are then forced to sign stamp papers stating that they’ve become Muslims,” says Laljee Menghwar, a member of the Hindu Panchayat in Karachi.

According to him, the Pakistani government needs to examine and put a stop to the social oppression of religious minorities in the country. “Hindus here are too frightened to vent their anger — they fear victimisation. But we have now decided to go public with these cases and demand justice,” Laljee says. Their cause has found support in the Pakistani Christian community, who carried out a demonstration with them in Karachi, protesting against this crime.

Similarly startling incidents have occurred in several districts of Sindh and evoked identical responses. At least six Hindu girls met this fate a few months ago in Jacobabad (a tribal area heavily inhabited by Hindus) and Larkana districts.

Sapna, the daughter of one Seth Giyanchand, was recently taken to a shrine (Amrote in Shikarpur district) by Shamsuddin Dasti. Dasti, a Muslim friend of Sapna’s brother, is a married man and father of two.

Nevertheless, the custodian of the shrine, Maulvi Abdul Aziz lost no time in converting Sapna to Islam (her names was changed to ‘Mehek’) and marrying her to Dasti. The case came to light only when Sapna’s parents stated that their daughter hadn’t eloped but been abducted.

Human rights activists, such as Nuzhat Shirin who belongs to the Aurat Foundation, says that religious extremism is rapidly increasing in Jacobabad and other Sindh districts.

Extremists in turn encourage shrines, which are involved with forced conversions. When a Hindu girl is converted to Islam, hundreds of extremists belonging to religious parties such as Maulana Fazlur Rehman’s Jamiat-e-Ulema Islam (JUI), take to the streets and chant religious slogans.

In Sapna’s case, when she was presented in court with Dasti, extremists showered rose petals on them and loudly chanted religious slogans. The fanaticism was so daunting that Sapna was too frightened to even speak with her own parents who were also present in the courtroom. At that, Maulvi Aziz, who was also standing in the courtroom, was said to have remarked, “How can a Muslim girl live and maintain contact with kafirs (infidels)?”

Sapna’s story sparked widespread demonstrations by the Hindu community. Presidents and mukhis of Panchayats from various towns and districts met in Jacobabad to discuss this serious issue. Activists and leaders from educated segments of society strongly criticised the role of religious leaders, like Maulvi Aziz, in these forced conversion cases.

Still, the threat of victimisation by Muslims is palpable; Shirin says when forced conversion cases make it to court, lawyers themselves avoid taking them up, fearing a backlash from maulvis.

Giyanchand meanwhile has said that he has no other option but to migrate to India — it will be difficult for him to find grooms for his other daughters because of Sapna’s controversial conversion.

And forced conversions are not the only problem that the Hindu minority (there are 2.7 million Hindus in Pakistan; Pakistan’s total population is 140 million) is facing in the country.

A powerful syndicate of bandits and patrons in the northern districts of Sindh regularly kidnap rich Hindus for ransom. They not kill hostages if the ransom doesn’t arrive on time, they even kill some despite their ransom being paid.

Sadham Chand Chawla, the former president of the Hindu Panchayat, Jacobabad, was abducted and murdered. His killers remain at large despite enormous protests. Following his murder, his family had received several threats until they secretly migrated to India.

[http://web.mid-day.com/news/world/2005/november/123248.htm]

dost mitter

As far as I know Manu Simirti mandates death penalty for apostasy. It is also not clear to me whether Manu based his law on a divine mandate or just decried by himself. I am also not sure if Hindus have such cannonical process to enact such law in present day. In case of Muslims, it is a divine mandate and a Muslim tradition since Mosaic Law or may be since Adam (pbuh) but written Islamic traditions only start after Psalms of David (pbuh).