Church Lures Gujarat Tribals to Christ

#15
If religion ceases to be a matter of personal dogma and crosses over into politics and becomes an ideology, it in turn becomes fair game for concerted political assault.
What we have oftentimes is not a fair market place of ideas. Some ideas are backed by a lot of money from rich countries and there`s no way you can compete with that.
Active proselytization with a political objective ought to be challenged.

#15 rozaiba seems spot-on for me.

impressed by the missionary zeal, rss has a developed a campaign, very similar called Ekal Vidyalay and Vanavasi Ashram and they run schools, primary care etc in adivasi areas...hindvi must be very familiar since a while back there was a big issue that IDRF folks were collecting money from Cisco employees to promote hate thru these schools.

whichever way, if they get better quality of life, more power to them. missionaries however do have an extremely long and bloody history of decimating local cultures thoughout the world.

tahmed, why dont you invite some of these missions in pakistan as well? maybe raise funds for that purpose?

TAhmed:

`````` you wont find any pakistani on chowk berating christian missionaries in pakistan the way i see the ``educated babus`` like avkrishna in his post below, or the writer of this article.````


Are Christian missionaries allowed to convert Muslims in Pakistan? Ii believe that was illegal?

I am saying this as a Hindu and not an Indian. Hindus do not go out and convert people to other religions and I do not want Hindus to be converted either. If these people are concerned about doing humanitarian work, let them do it without converting people. Ootherwise, they should not bitcch and moan when Hindu groups target christians to be reconverted either.

Why does the Catholic church oppose VHP efforts to convert Christians if they have been doing the same for the past 50 years?

If Hindus or Muslims are complaing about Christians converting the poor, than they should do a better job of selling their own religion to the poor (that is if they feel so strongly about the specific faith of people). Missionaries only succeed where others - governments, faiths etc. have failed.

I agree Roziaba. But when Hindu groups do exactly what Christian groups have been doing, it is called ``spreading hate``. Why? After all, if the Christians can open schools and give socio-economic help with religion attached, then so can Hindus. Hindus have targetted the same tribal groups for reconversion as Christians, and the Churches yelp and squeal about Hindu Fascism.

these missionaries are back again !!!

where is bajrang dal ???

stuka: i think we need to get to the basics here. And at heart is this very simple question: is religion for the benefit of the individual or for the benefit of God (or Allah or Brahman)?

If you believe the beneficiary is the ``individual``, then everything I am saying should make sense to you (i.e. let various religions compete for the individuals attention - and let the individual have the right to decide which religion appeals to him/her the most, and also to have the right to tell the hindu priest or the muslim maulvi or the christian priest to buzz since he is not interested in any religion).

If you believe the beneficiary is some deity, then nothing i say will make sense to you.

(if it helps to answer the above question, btw, ask yourself whether prayer - hindu, muslim, christian, doesnt matter - is for the benefit of the individual`s peace of mind, or it is to appease some deity`s needs to be told every day He/She is the mightiest of the mighty and so forth).

as for change in religion being illegal in Pakistan - I am shocked even you should have to ask such a question. Not only are people free to change their religion as they please in Pakistan (and in fact many do that routinely to pass some stupid religious law like forced retention of zakat from their savings accounts, or the prohibition on alcohol if you are a muslim). We have our own religious problems, but i think it is fair to say that no pakistani would write such a vicious article, let alone support it.

As for the missionaries - just pray that some day our desi babus (whose definition of class is money) are able to achieve their level of commitment to public service. no mullah or hindu priest would be caught dead doing anything resembling public service like mother teresa or any other christian missionary. that is why they hate christian missionaries so much, and try to defame them at every opportunity.

Re: # 23

Dear Shri Stuka,

You really have the wrong end of the stick. Teresa and Missionaries of Charity are any day a more potent cancer than the church ever will be.

Remember organisations like Opus Drei are under a 100k in membership but they are the brain that controls the foot soldiers of papism.

What organisations like MoC have done is that they have made reconverted secularists like you focus on the C part when they are actually for the M part. And remember this is not a discussion of MI6 where C is the title of the Chief meaning C for Cumming which Ian Fleming Changed to M for Mansfield in James Bond.

``If you believe the beneficiary is the ``individual``, then everything I am saying should make sense to you

I believe in this ...

``(i.e. let various religions compete for the individuals attention -``

which is precisely why I am not enamored of this..

`` and let the individual have the right to decide which religion appeals to him/her the most, and also to have the right to tell the hindu priest or the muslim maulvi or the christian priest to buzz since he is not interested in any religion). ``

And I do agree with this.

You see, since religion is for the benefit of the individual, I am 100% for individual choice, and therefore against the corporatization of religion.

``as for change in religion being illegal in Pakistan - I am shocked even you should have to ask such a question. Not only are people free to change their religion as they please in Pakistan (and in fact many do that routinely to pass some stupid religious law like forced retention of zakat from their savings accounts, or the prohibition on alcohol if you are a muslim). ``

Okay, I was simply asking. I know that it is illegal in many Islamic countries in the Arab world.

``As for the missionaries - just pray that some day our desi babus (whose definition of class is money) are able to achieve their level of commitment to public service. no mullah or hindu priest would be caught dead doing anything resembling public service like mother teresa or any other christian missionary. that is why they hate christian missionaries so much, and try to defame them at every opportunity.``

But that is also the other point I was making. Till the 70s, no Hindu group in India was doing anything comparable to what the Christian missionaries were doing. Now the Hindu groups have organized and they are doing the exact same thing. And the Church and Chrsitian groups are up in arms about that.

BTW, Ii would exclude Mother Teresa`s group because she was doing precisely the opposite of what the established church groups are doing ie: providing succour to all regardless of their faith. The Church groups OTOH only do so to those that accept Christianity as a faith.

We should fully support the missionaries in their efforts to civilize these women burning, penile worshipping, urine drinking pagans. Hindus would prefer to live according to their 5000 year old parampara but the civilized world has to bring them to modernity, kicking and screaming.

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know the official policy of converting religions in Pakistan......I know, unofficially, people do it. And it i quite common between Shias and Sunnis.........But they are in the same religion.........

But what if Mohammad Yosuf decided to become Yosuf Yohanna again? What would happne? I had an English teacher who became a Muslim, and then went back to his Christian faith. Nothing happened to him........And I have friends who consider themselves athiests, even though they were born Muslims........I moved towards athiesm at one point in my life.........But none of us are famous or well-known public figures........

Are the individuals converting to Christianity, from Hinduism, part of a lower cast? Are their upper caste Hindus converting also? From what I have read, most of the Hindus who converted to Islam, historically, were from the lower caste. Which is why one finds very, ``upper caste`` Muslim names in South Asia, like Qureshi, and Ansari and Syed. Obviously these guys` ancestors did not migrate from Arabia. They were just given these names, to riase their castes, so to speak...........

#25 romair,

Oops, my html coding stinks.
Here you go:
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2004/03/03/stories/2004030300220900.htm

#22 tahmed2,
since you have brought pakistan in these conversations. let me ask you about blasphemy laws in pakistan.
Missionaries berate hindus, hinduism and hindu gods but there is no law against that similarly if in pakistan if missionaries berate the majority religion or the prophet of majority religion do you know what happens to them.
Pat robertson a televangelist came to india and called Lord Shiv a demon. Can he go to pakistan and call the prophet a demon.
ali_1 could say the exact words of post 24 in India and he would not be breaking any laws but if he does anything similar in pakistan about pakistanis religion he would be hanged.

Conversions are okay if a person finds it in his heart but inducing or bribing people to convert is wrong.
People complain about islamic militancy but in north east india the militancy is supported by christians and funded by tithe of christians all around the world.

Stuka #23 So looks like we are basically in agreement on this fundamental issue of whether religion is there to serve the individual or vice versa. Organized religion has undoubtedly been a source of much abuse through the ages.

But lets not knock the christian missionaries. They dont represent organized religion any more than tahmed ranting about the Quran on chowk represents anyone other than himself. The missionaries have devoted their lives to live in difficult and often dangerous conditions, taking care of the weakest members of society whom the privileged members of desi society look down upon. This hatred for missionaries is nothing more than the indian version of the ``Mukhtar Mai Syndrome`` - i.e. to blame the west for demonstrating concern for those whom the desi babus themselves would rather ignore. Pakistani babus still cant get over the shock of a ``mai`` being feted by rich and famous in the US, while they themselves have to suffer the ignominy of applying for visas and being treated like any other joe upon arrival in the US.

Re: # 30
soysauce, if the christians abroad may not fund the insurgency knowingly but unknowingly they do fund.
It would be amazing if the government can check on the fund coming from abroad to the missionaries of any religion but mostly it will be christians and muslims. It is said to be around $1 billion.

Re: # 29
I would not mind you ranting about quran as much as you want. That is your right to do but it is vastly different from the missionary activities in India.
I would really like to know where you get an idea that `` taking care of the weakest members of society whom the privileged members of desi society look down upon``. It utter nonsense because if you had looked at response of expatrite indian for tsunami or gujarat earthquake you would not be insulting them.

samosa, i don`t think christians abroad are funding the insurgency. Conversions are fueling the insurgency as a byproduct. For instance in manipur or nagaland a few weeks ago, don`t remember which, a tribal community that had converted gave ultimatum to the few remaining holdouts to convert or leave. Missionaries themselves were probably not present there and the zeal of the new convert and desire for homogeneity is what was responsible. There is a very strong political aspect to the whole thing and what the government should do is institute strict oversight on funds coming from overseas for WHATEVER cause.