Here We Go Again

#390, Kaurasach {`` could sleep at night if tose sikhs had killed mslim marauders or their famlies in pakisatan.....there was a plan to defend sikhs ...... which was undermined by hijra congrasis and mslim police........instd of killing INNOCENT muslims in E Pb.
I am writing a piece abot it.....will finish over the Thanksgiving holidays.....will pblsh i t here ``}

Kaura Bhai,
Thanks for saying what you did. I agree with you and it bothers me that Muslims who kill innocents, both non-Muslims and Muslims, often get away with these murders, and innocents end up paying for their crimes.

I look forward to your essay, please share it with us. I think that Sikhs, through the actions of these jhattas who performed the worst imaginable cruelties on victims from Delhi, UP, and East Punjab, have unnecessarily and unjustly received notoriety among many many Muslims for the misdeeds of a few violent and cruel people.

Salim;

I have a few mntes on computer whose keyboard is Mexican - doesn`t work prperlyy &(*&(&(*&(&)@##@#


.........Nevertheless the attackers of those trains were SIKHS.......and I struggle with it..........


On one hand, it can be seen as a `NECESSARY EVIL`........on another, teaching of religon and upbringing doesn`t alllow it.......so,.....

nder the best crcmstances, I could sleep at night if tose sikhs had killed mslim marauders or their famlies in pakisatan.....there was a plan to defend sikhs ...... which was undermined by hijra congrasis and mslim police........instd of killing INNOCENT muslims in E Pb.

I am writing a piece abot it.....will finish over the Thanksgiving holidays.....will pblsh i t here or another webiste.......

dharma #368, {``#368 by dharma on November 17, 2005 2:47pm PT
#365 besharam
you never answered my questions on the other board.
1) I asked if your kids know that you are a sugardaddy.
2) and if you know that prostitution is illegal in TX?
And after reading your numerous posts claiming that ``hindoos`` are hateful
I gathered the following from your posts
1) Hindus smell
2) Hindu women are always looking for sugar daddies
3) Hindus are ugly
4) Americans and the politicians don’t like the H1bs in US ``}

Dear Ma,
I know that you asked the questions of someone else, but I used to be somewhat of a zealous student and took homework very seriously - sometimes, even doing homework assigned to others. :) OK, I am exaggerating a lot, but it sounds good and almost responsible. :)

Here are some answers - don’t know if BehramJI Ateshband Gannewalla agrees or not:

1) Do my kids know that I am a sugardaddy? When I have kids, I will ask them. Meanwhile, anyone claiming to speak as my kid is definitely an imposter.

2) Do I know that prostitution is illegal in TX? Damn, must you remind us all? Ever since they closed the ``Chicken Ranch`` things have gone south in Texas and now we have George Bush2 for second time - I don’t trust people with a number ``2`` as the suffix of their names - hamidm2, tahmed32, atif2. I guess I don’t have to elaborate - these are called ``do number walley. even if they are pretending to be butteesi.`` They made a nice play and a movie called the ``Best Little Whorehouse in Texas.``


Now the four Hindu items:

1) Hindus smell - Yes, they do. Bhagwan gave them pretty good noses and a powerful sense of smell. On occasion, some Hindus can see, touch, and hear too.
2) Hindu women are always looking for sugardaddys - With so many Hindu men running around with sugarcanes, do you blame them? In fact since Pakis have started copying Indians in everything, the latest fad in Lahore is for Muslim men to walk around displaying their own gannas in order to attract Muslim women looking for sugardaddys. Sweetness is an equal opportunity endeavor.
3) Hindus are ugly - I wouldn’t go that far. Have you seen some of the Pakis lately? With all that hair on their faces and hiding behind ugly burkas, they are in no position to call anyone ugly. To set the record straight I think that most Hindus, including the ones from the South, y`all, are very attractive - Priyanka Chopra, Lara Dutta, Bipasha Bhasu, and many many others, including now, Meera. :)
4) Americans and the politicians don’t like the H1bs in US - Absolutely not true. As an American, but not a politician, I can categorically deny this. I like the H1bs. They keep our software running. Before them, we used to get the stupid ``Application Error`` advisory from Bill Gates and the only remedy was to reboot the stupid PC and lose all the insults that we had typed in our document. Also, H1bs are the source of much comedy and fun for the ABCDs. Pakis are just saying that because H1b visas don’t apply to taxi drivers, baggage handlers, kebab dhaba tandoori chefs, and AlKayda scouts.

Shishapa #370 {``And Sugars too...
Salim,
You were in Austin? Did you study at UT? ``}

Shisha,
Yes, Sugar`s - right behind the Hilton. Thanks for reminding me. I thought that the talent was more attractive at Sugar`s but the Yellow Rose was somehow more fun. :) Both places offered excellent food, believe it or not.

Yes, I loved Austin and no, I did not attend UT. :) BTW, the Great Hills area was so unlike Texas - reminded me of the Bay area.

#378, rsridhar {``Wokay, wokay (in my south indian accent). White pigs are cute too. Just as u say. BTW, i have enjoyed reading your posts. ``}

Shri Sridhar, :)
Thank you for cutting the porky pigs some slack in the beauty department. Your southern accent was indeed very convincing. Sri, I like to read your views too - you have both logic and conviction to back up your thoughts. Thanks for sharing.

Ballukhan #382, {``Thanks for rewriting the history..........such sweeping generalizations..................such a painting of the historical events in one sweep only reeks of laziness........... and an ardent desire to stereotype events into neat boxes .........I would appeal to your humanistic sensibility to avoid re-affirming these sterotypical theses and sweeping false world views in order to present a counterpoint to the sterotyping of all muslims by some christian rightwingers............. the way out of this quagmire is to isolate the extremists and not letting them take control of OUR leadership``}

Ballu Bhai,
At least I offered specific examples and events in history. :) I don`t think I was being lazy, I think I was being polite in not posting a lengthy Romair-like tutorial on Western ``Civilization.`` I listed separate events and briefly indicated how they are related to religious extremism emanating from European interpretation of Christianity. You have made several sweeping statements about my laziness, my attempt to affirm stereotypical theses, and making false world views. I think that you need to offer some specifics. I will be glad to debate you concerning specific events in history. Just because I don`t roll over and accept every blame that you care to heap upon Islamic ``civilization`` does not make me a supporter of terrorism - eastern, western - or southern. It is quite fashionable now to get on the anti-Islamic bandwagon and start hurling garbage on everything Muslim - from mosques to Korans to kebabs and even belly dancers. :) Please try to be rational. I agree with your last comment about the way out being the isolation of extremists - yes extremists representing ALL hateful and violent goals.

Re: # 340

Hi Manto

Why arent you concerned about things in your backard. Your obsession with past is stunning. Do contribute something to make your dream, a developed Pakistan, a reality. Its not going to help if you continue to condescend. Your Indian obsession really is surprising. Go start some business and try to create jobs in Pakistan.

NFP, I say this with all due respect to u,that your current article was below par-it sounded more like a mere rhetoric of an elitist thinker, who wrote this feature while listening to some gossips in a drawing room debate. The suspects held in connection with the current bomb attack have roots to the Balouchistan Liberation Army(BLA)-which had claimed the attack just hours after the blast. The dimensions of the politics behind this attack and the one you dicussed does not reflect the realities. All in all, a dissapointing effort. A better idea perhaps would be for you to stick with your reviews on the music industry, which undoubtably is your forte.

Re: # 376

A Hundred year treatise has no relevance today. The article is at best reflects a moral upperground of Mr.Rights type.

Re: # 341

``Nazis` hatred for the Jews may have originated in the age-old European Christian (certainly practised during the Crusades - the 1st and possibly the 4th) habit of blaming Jews, the evil Christ killers, for all calamities. The IRA was a deeply Catholic militant organization having its origins in the Irish Catholic struggle against the Protestants of William of Orange, Cromwell, etc.. The Crusaders were killing Jews and Muslims (and Eastern Christians) for Christ, the Cross, and God (Deus Lo Vult - God wills it!). We all know about the Conquistadores, discovering new lands and converting/killing native peoples for Christ (and King, Queen, etc) - For God, King, and Country. :) I don`t need to explain the religious aspect of the Inquisition to you - It was carried out against Spanish Muslims, Jews, witches, heretical Christians, and other unfortunates. If you look at the French Revolution, the Russian Revolution, and some others you will see that these were a direct result of religious oppression by the nobility and clergy that led to rebellions against the Church. Many of the wars in America were based in religious beliefs and a desire to install Christian European civilization upon native peoples - just ask the Aztecs, Incas, Iroquois, Cree, Seminoles, Mohicans, Algonquins, Chippewas, Yakima, Blackfeet, Arapaho, Cheyenne, and other Indians about how they were Christianized and civilized.``

Thanks for rewriting the history..........such sweeping generalizations..................such a painting of the historical events in one sweep only reeks of laziness........... and an ardent desire to stereotype events into neat boxes in order to, what I said before, justify the common nodding of heads by us on the ``conspiracy theories`` about the US or other western democratic civilizations that we so aspire to condemn just in order to keep our lowly self esteem...................I would appeal to your humanistic sensibility to avoid re-affirming these sterotypical theses and sweeping false world views in order to present a counterpoint to the sterotyping of all muslims by some christian rightwingers............. the way out of this quagmire is to isolate the extremists and not letting them take control of OUR leadership..........as some one said........the next target is going to be the moderate muslims...........

#374 behsaram1

``deen-e-haram:

Actually, there is no need to respond to a dirty old man like you, who wants to learn whether it is Ok to become a sugar daddy.

To be a sugar daddy costs money. And stingy fools like you do not have it. Besides, you can ask your own kids what it really takes to be a sugar daddy.

It seems you are Bipolar. Hence, I am not sure, whether you are reading this in the manic mode or the depressed mode.

You just want a response to get dignified. And now got it. ``

What kind of response is that? Now I am stingy and bipolar? What made you think so? can you point to my posts which give you that impression. Dont go on hating people and calling people names without basis. Whatver i wrote about you i can substantiate with your own writings.

behram1 #345

`` Pakistani administration should watch this relationship very carefully. Hindoo Chamcha`s are at it again... Now they want to stab Saudi Arabia, as they did to Iran ``

Exactly what did India do to stab Iran ? What harm can India exactly do to Saudi Arabia ?

`` NEW DELHI - It has taken a half century for a Saudi monarch to visit India but the main guest for the country`s Republic Day celebrations on January 26 will be King Abdullah bin Abdul Aziz. ``

Improved relations between biggest energy producer and India (soon to be third largest energy consumer) are long overdue.

re:#345 by behram1 on November 17, 2005 9:03am PT

(Pakistani administration should watch this relationship very carefully. Hindoo Chamcha`s are at it again... Now they want to stab Saudi Arabia, as they did to Iran )
Looks like har@mi now has a@tish in his rear for sure.
What is bothering this guy.
This is realpolitik. India needs energy for growth. In the long term, civilian reactors will provide that energy but that has a gestation period of at least 10 years (provided the deal with US goes to fruition). Meanwhile, India should get energy from all possible sources. Saudia Arabia is not my favourite. It is a sponsor of jehad. But its royalty is close to US and if it is ready to do business with India, heck why not.
India should send the Saudi King to Pak for a day so Pakis can grovel at their master`s feet.
Sridhar

re:#342 by Salim_Chauhan
Wokay, wokay (in my south indian accent). White pigs are cute too. Just as u say.
BTW, i have enjoyed reading your posts.
Sridhar

Moderator

I just opened and saw some hateful and degrading `Juggat-baazi` going on between two chowky friends - vide # 374. I had hoped this would be stopped at least by the new set up but it seems to have worsened.

A well written article on Gandhi. For your reading pleasure...

---

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2005 11 18 story_18-11-2005_pg3_6

VIEW: Chatterjee, Gandhi and the caste system —Farida Majid

George Orwell could understand the political posturing of Gandhi and hence he remarked on its “shrewdness” in his 1949 essay, ‘Reflections on Gandhi’. Orwell was born in India, and sympathised with its plight under colonisation. His essay, ‘Shooting an Elephant’ will forever remain a classic — a most moving testimony to the evil workings of colonisation.

Orwell’s comments on Gandhi should be taken seriously because of his deep knowledge of the colonial mindset of the British imperialist policymakers and intellectuals — a mindset that he held in utter contempt. He could tell, like none of us really can, how Gandhi was playing the political card of the “untouchables” to the benefit of his colonial masters. Orwell knew the nuances.

As far as I know, Gandhi could not read Sanskrit, and was unschooled therefore in the vast literature of Hindu shastras, philosophy and jurisprudence. His sense of the Hindu “caste system” was what he had received from the British and other local writers. The imperial British administrators were obsessed with the idea of the Indian system of “caste” and endlessly analysed it. This was not so much for the sake of real knowledge of how it functioned in the pre-colonial societies without exploitation of lower castes, but in an overall effort to malign Indian civilisation.

The people of India were not “plunged into the lowest depths of wretchedness and despondency”, as Thomas Babington Macaulay and his colonising cohorts falsely envisioned them to be before they took over India, as a pretext for taking over India.

It is important to have an understanding of how colonial rule actually changed the way caste used to function in India.

From the end of the 18th century the British changed land ownership, revenue collection and other agricultural and commerce laws whereby the peasantry and ordinary labourers were dispossessed and disenfranchised by enacting a series of laws. They then codified the lower castes in such a way that smothered the upward mobility lower castes had in the past. New laws freed the Brahmins from traditional strictures of moral conduct and obligations, making them the group that most benefited from colonial opportunities.

By the time the British left, the caste system of modern India had turned into reality as one that the British had feverishly imagined it to be — an instrument of extremely cruel social injustice. Bearing little or no resemblance to the pre-colonial economy or the way hierarchical social arrangement functioned in the past, caste as it is prevalent in India today is the biggest system of institutional racism adversely affecting the largest number of people in the world.

Other than the word shudra, all the words we use today to describe the lower castes are new-fangled, colonial, and Gandhian. Whoever heard of “scheduled caste” or the term “dalit” in the 19th century? “Harijan”, a nomenclature gratuitously imposed by Gandhi, is intended to make lowly people feel proud of being “God’s creatures”. To a writer like Bankimchandra Chattopadhyaya (aka Chatterjee), the great Bengali writer writing in the 1880s, the word “acchyut” (untouchable) was an adjective, not a common noun designating a class of people.

Gandhi’s shrewd tactics with his weirdly passionate ideas about the “caste system” being an integral part of Hinduism was a ploy to carry on the authoritarianism of imperialism even after the British left India. How much did he really know about Hinduism? How much did any ordinary person know? It was an easy job for him to present himself as one dedicated, out of the goodness of his heart, to alleviating the misery of these lowly people born in their lowly station. Being born in a low caste is an inescapable fate — with a hint that such a birth is due to bad karma, which could not be helped and is due to an implied innate flaw in the low caste person.

In sharp contrast, we read the writings of Bankim, a superbly versed Sanskrit scholar, immensely proud of his scholarly Brahminical lineage and the contribution of numerous Bengali pundits to the body of Nayashastra and other branches of philosophy, Sanskrit literature and juridical commentary. He was not himself a practising, ritualistically observant Brahmin. Though obviously trained in his Brahminical studies, he pursued, as we all know, a newly devised weighty regimen of modern secular education and was the first distinguished graduate produced by the newly established Calcutta University. His was a genuine voice of anti-imperialism that boldly empathised with the dispossessed peasantry and workers of Bengal — both Hindu and the Muslim — due to colonial rule!

Bankim detested varna! He wrote against it with unmitigated scorn. And he wrote against it in a language that I have rarely seen any other writer express. There are many writers who wrote heart-wrenching tales of injustice due to caste discrimination — the Bengali novelist Sharatchandra Chattopadhya was certainly one of the greatest protesters against social injustice due to caste. His novels are marvellous studies of subtle manipulations through established, rule-governed Hindu social practices and how a small section of the society undermines the other, larger section’s basic humanity.

But Bankim is the one who actually stated that varna is the cause of all the backwardness and wretchedness of today’s India. Unlike the British and Gandhi, Bankim does not talk about caste in essentialist terms. He talks about varna in developmental terms through history and concludes that the varna system ended up being no good for anybody, not even the middle-tiered castes. He reserves his sharpest barbs for the Brahmins. Those Brahmins who created the great epic and romantic literatures, laws and philosophies of India have gone astray, their mental faculties now as fallow as a desert, he laments. Since the structure of Hindu society is Brahmin-centred, with the gaping blank at the centre, Bankim would have seen no use for preserving the system.

Had Bankim been alive to witness Gandhi’s political manoeuvrings and his costume drama (of wearing the langhoti and pretending to be one with the Harijans with his captive audience being the colonial masters), he would have died in shame. Bankim was modern enough as a secular but proud as a Hindu — as a progressive 19th century Indian intellectual; as an internationalist or ‘multi-culturalist’ as we call them these days — to have enthusiastically supported the abolition of the caste system.

Isn’t it ironic that Gandhi is being upheld as the hero of the “untouchables” and Bankim is being heralded as the “flag bearer” of the mean and contemptible brand of Hindutva goondaism? In the unswerving pursuit of truth and in possessing piercing insights into the follies of the domineering powers, Bankim was a precursor of Orwell. Like Orwell, he too would have been certain to have detected the pretensions of Gandhi and protested loudly against the preservation of the cursed caste system.

The author is a Bangladeshi academic living and working in New York