Here We Go Again

Re: # 501

Salim

“If you continue, people will declare you to be another one of my multiple nics.”

They cannot. I’ve been around Chowk for a long time. Most, for better or worse, know me quite well here.

However, it’s another story that some scorn and are burnt for me writing that post #495 to you. I may have emboldened their hatred for me. I say, good for them. C’est la vie!

#497, Jang {``salim you are a mohammedan. you seem to be willing to ignore some of the word of god, the message, but find greatness in the messanger for his human qualities, and not necessarily his direct hotline.``}

Jang, you can take a person out of Hinduism but you can`t take Hinduism out of a person. Apparently, we all have a need to find humans we can thoroughly respect and thus hope that they lead us to that elusive divine being.

I don`t mind being called a Mohammedan. Yes, I admire the Holy Prophet (PBUH) for his human qualities, but reserve the right to read, interpret, and behave as the divine message that we call a brain guides me. I hope we can all do that and put an end to uniforms and arms.

#495, Godot Sahib,
Shukriya Janaab. If I can have friends on both sides of the border, I too feel very fortunate. After all, we are all here because we love the Indian subcontinent, bar-e-sagheer.
Thank you so much for such kind and warm words of encouragement. If you continue, people will declare you to be another one of my multiple nics. I have always found your views to be both original and refreshing. You refuse to be easily tagged and I admire that trait in you. As for contributing to Chowk, I have submitted an article to FP in the past, but have not received a reply. So, I pretend to be an unauthorized author by scribbling on the walls of Chowk FP and UP. Perhaps, with the change in administrations, .... :)

#486 Ustruly {``The situation is identical to Mahabharat where Kurus and pandwas are facing off each other in the batlle field of Pandawana. When Arjun shows his reluctance to raise his weapons against those who were once friends and relatives, Lord Krishna encourages him to fight and do the Yudh

Urstruly,
A very good analogy. As much as we detest war, killing, and ancient forms of retribution, there is this concept of good fighting evil. I have a hard time understanding how violence, death, and destruction can be good, but apparently George Bush knows the answer. :)

#485 pmishra2 {`` salim

Informative analysis from which I learnt a lot. Re: early marriage of girls, both of my grandmothers were married between 12 and 14. ..Ancient texts have all kinds of brutalities mentioned and justified. Greek society was 50%+ made up of slaves and jewish bible also mentions (and does not condemn) slavery. The Bhagvat Gita mentions the ``four varnas`` and does not condemn it in any way (if anything, there is a suggestion that Arjuna is upholding his ``warrior caste`` duty). There is no other way but to separate between the aspects that are related to specific time and place and the more abstract learning that has to do with ethics, morality and good behavior. Regrettably, I have to say that many in Islam do not yet accept this.``

Mishra Sahib,
What a wonderful job of connecting all the ancient cultures to demonstrate that we need to move forward - learn from our development, keep the fundamental words of wisdom, learn from the lives of our ancestors, not necessarily repeat them.
Thanks,

#486 Urstruly {`` Salim,
I think you have cleared the cannonical position on certain issues quite effectively. However, I would like to further elaborate on your point on fighting against infidels etc. The cannonical position on that is that a war cannot be waged aginst any kind of non-beleivers (non-Muslims) because of their beliefs. It is forbidden to convert someone with sword. However, there is an exception to this rule. This exception applies only and only to the Prophet of God. He can wage a war against non-believers if he deems fit that it is the only way to expand on the mission that he is charged with by God.``}

Urstruly,
Thanks for reviewing my post. We agree that it is forbidden to convert by force. Whether or not we agree about the Prophet (PBUH) having the only say in using force is not important, because as we all acknowledge, The Holy Prophet (PBUH) is no longer with us and none will come after him. :)

So, from 632 AD onwards, there should be no force in conversion. Thus, maybe some of our Hindu friends have a point about some of the Muslim conquerors - e.g. Ghori, Ghaznavi, and others.

#493...salim you are a mohammedan. you seem to be willing to ignore some of the word of god, the message, but find greatness in the messanger for his human qualities, and not necessarily his direct hotline.

DMji, your grandmother was married to someone close to her age, no? That`s the difference.

Ajeya, you`re starting to talk like a mullah - ignoring empirical evidence in favor of literalism. This is the stuff fundamentalists are made of.
Two naturalized citizens of the United States who have taken the same pledge of allegiance could have different outlooks on life. Should they invade another country preemptively to safeguard the US, what does security of the US mean, who do we mean by the US, is it OK to criticize from within, at a time of war, how do we treat prisoners of war, when does torture become acceptable, what is the minimum level of economic safety that the citizens should have, etc., etc.
Same constitution, same polity, completely divergent views.
Regardless of what a literal reading may lead to, the evidence is there that different muslims read different things into the quoran. That, my friend, is human ingenuity.

Salim

You seem to have achieved a remarkable feat: You are admired from both sides of the border.

You are the new star of Chowk. It was quite a while back I wrote to you that you are very intelligent and will be a key contributor at Chowk. Because of your wit, intelligence, and honesty untainted by bias, you unite, not divide. That is the keystone of Chowk and you have come around to uphold it.

It’s a pleasure to read your posts. You make people think and you make them laugh. Keep up the great work. I suggest that you pen an article for Chowk and become a regular writer. You have so much to offer.

Thank you for proving my assumption about you right. I am rarely wrong in my assessment, and I wasn’t wrong about you.

Your friend,
Godot

#492 kaalchakra

This is precisely the challenge of ``reform`` or ``modernization``. I have no special knowledge or insight into this.

Every tradition has within it some tools to help with this. Otherwise, it will not survive history. I cannot speak for islam, I am too ignorant, but amongst hindus you can see ram mohun roy, gandhi, many others as having used concepts from within hindu traditions to move things forward. There have been similar movements for sikhs, jains, and others. People have to participate in an open process to figure out what is important to them.

#484, #shishapa {``Salim,
It is really admirable that you are so calm and patient in replying to all kinds of emails.
Your responses are devoid or any namecalling, bickering and vitriol however
provocative posts are.
You are in the league of Ferozk, Dost Mittar, Romair, and Hamidm2 and some others
I may have missed. ``}

Shishapa,
Thank you for your kind comments. While I don`t consider myself in the league of Ferozk, DM Sahib, Captain Romair, and Hamidum Sahib, I appreciate your exaggeration of my piety. Thanks again.

In discussing the life of the Holy Prophet (PBUH), I tend to become calmer and more patient - keeping in mind his example of the treatment at Taaif. During the early years, the Holy Prophet (PBUH) would walk to various places and preach the message of the One God. In the city of Taaif, a woman would dutifully dump garbage on his head as he walked by down in the street. One day, she failed to dump the garbage. The Holy Prophet (PBUH) went to inquire the reason for her forgetfulness and found out that she was ill. He consoled her and comforted her and the woman ended up accepting Islam.

While I may not be a thoroughly practising Muslim, my most sincere belief in Islam is due to the personality and life of Prophet Mohammed (PBUH). During my short life, I have taken a very critical stance on The Holy Prophet`s (PBUH) actions, and have found him truly to be the example of honesty, fairness, compassion, resolve, justice, and humility in his life. I may not be pro-Arab, I may not like Mullahs, and I may be totally against Islamic law as specified in the Shariah, but I do find myself genuinely a follower of Prophet Mohammed (PBUH). This man was humble, he sacrificed so much, refused bribery and exaltation, put the lives of his family, relatives, and friends in danger, along with his own life, just to deliver God`s message. The only title he ever claimed was one of Messenger - a delivery boy, a chaprasi, a postman, an errand boy, and a servant of God. He led by example, suffered as much as his followers, and there is no evidence of The Holy Prophet ever killing anyone. The fact that he was illiterate and yet delivered his highly refined message is a further testament to his simplicity and honesty. Any illiterate imposter wishing personal gain would certainly have claimed far more than Our Holy Prophet asked for and received.

Salim and pmishra2

``There is no other way but to separate between the aspects that are related to specific time and place and the more abstract learning that has to do with ethics, morality and good behavior.``

How does this separation become possible - this distinction between the temporal and the eternal?

#483, DM Sahib {``I should add that marrying a minor was not uncommon in Arabia at that time and should not be confused with pedophelia. Even my Punjabi granmother was probably married off before she reached her teens.``}

DM Sahib,
First of all, thank you for correcting me about the marriage with Ayesha being initiated by The Holy Prophet (PBUH) and not by Abu Bakr, as I had stated. I learned something. :)

I am glad that you are pointing out how marriage at a young age was common in so many different cultures. We have accounts of Temujjin (Genghis Khan) being a father at the unbelievable age of 11 or 12. I have read the Cleopatra was a mere teenager when she met Julius Caesar. Similarly, Romeo and Juliet were in their early teens. I guess in primitive cultures of the old days, female children were considered a burden that must be transferred to their husbands as early as possible. I am sure there are other reasons for this. Maybe the idea was that if nature made them physically capable of procreating then they should start right away, the sooner the better.

Sattar

I think you should first read before you post it.

In the second paragraph it says `` This was the policy which was adopted by the Prophet (pbuh) and his Rightly Guided Caliphs. Arabia, where the Muslims Party was first formed, was the first to be subdued. After this, the Prophet (pbuh) sent invitations to all neighboring countries,...``

This bold portion is the part of ``ultimate argument`` i.e. itimam-e-hujjat that I was writing about in my last post. The argument was made by prophet (pbuh) himself, the four rightly guided Caliphs carried on the mission that Holy Prophet charged them with or would have carried on had he remained alive little bit longer. Please do not forget that along with those messages Holy Prophet (pbuh) sent missionaries as well to convey the teachings to the people as far as China (Saad bi Abi Wiqas (ra) died there), Sindh (Abdullaf Shah Sahabi died there ) there and South India ( I forgot companions name). Similarly missionaries were sent to Africa, Persia, and northern Arabia as well. In those days North Africa and Syria were considered the Roman territories.

Now the second part whether this principle applies to the Muslims of later days or not, Maududi has argued that it is the most basic duty of the the Muslim state to spread the word of God all around the globe. The method is thru teaching and example. But it is common sense that like old times there are people and competing ideologies that have vested interest in keeping people from the message of God. These competing ideologies and nations would do anything including aggression to keep the spreading of message of God. The evidence to this is spread all accross us on daily basis where aggression, media and propaganda is used by enemies of God to its fullest to keep people from reaching Truth and Guidance. Defeating ``Islamic ideology`` is the mantra of modern media and justification to murder inncoenct Muslims all across the globe.

So Moududi argues that when we have a situation like this while disseminating the word of Godwhen the enemies of God join forces to end the mission and message of God then it is incumbent upon Muslim State to attack other nations and destroy their ideology before they can end Muslim ideology.

One can always depend on Mullah Urstruly to show the kinder, gentler face of islam.

[quote]
This exception applies only and only to the Prophet of God. He can wage a war against non-believers if he deems fit that it is the only way to expand on the mission that he is charged with by God. The reason for this exception is that a Prophet is ultimate method and way to convey to the people that God intends.
[quote]

Pardon me while I thow up. What a disgusting idea! One can see hear the roots of violence and cultural genocide that have accompanied islam for a 1000 years. At least this clown is honest about it - not that it matters to the millions who have been murdered by such an evil and heartless ideology.

Re: # 483 Dost

Your stance is correct. However, I must elaborate on one aspect here: During the seventh year of his Prophethood, Holy Prophet and his companions were excommunicated by Meccan community and forced to leave the city of Mecca. They were forced to live in a canyon called Shaab Abu Talib for three years outside the city of Mecca. The intention of Meccans was that these belivers would die with hunger and desease and yet they would not be charged with their murder to avoid any tribal retribution.

Those were the toughest three years of Prophet`s life. He and his comapnions were so deprived of food that on some days they would boil their shoes in water and eat the leather to survive. In those days only few Muslims remained in Mecca who had not openly declared their faith. These people used to provide food to the captives without letting anyone know. Among them there were two people most courageous. One was Abu Sufian who was instrumental in imposing that punishment but in his heart he was a kind hearted man. The other person was Ayesha (ra) who would risk her life almost everyday to provide food to the captives and not only that but convey messages of Prophet to the believers in Mecca and also provided news to him about what was going on in the Mecca. These captives remained in that canion for three years during which Holy Prophet`s wife Khadija and his uncle who raised him from infant died.

It is said that, Holy Prophet during his captivity realized the courage and intelligence of Ayesha and after one year of his release from captivity requested her hand from Abu Bakr (ra).