The American Nightmare: No Exit, No Entry

Dear Saima:

Thank you for this excellent write up. For a long while, I was having similar thoughts and opinions. And you put it all in this article. Were you listening in to my inner thoughts somehow?

Respectfully submitted,

Saima,

This is excellent analysis. You have some very good and substantive arguments.

The US is a fictional reality or reality that is almost fictional? The next decade will be crucial to find that answer.

I wonder how Tom Friedman would react if he read this article. I suppose a square world has to be flat too? No?

thanks

Much of the usual fare of US bashing can be dismissed out of hand. But if Saima Shah has written this article, I had better come back to understand the points she is making :)

Re: # 2

Quite true. The next decade may let us know exactly what the American dream was about.

I`d be curious to know myself what Friedman would think. No idea. Well. Tom Friedman skipped the social justice angle other than a few hints here and there. He writes after all for NYT, not Utne and we know how neatly divided media can be in the viewpoints it forwards. His subtext was `hey Americans wake up and smell the coffee, there is some competition.` The world is flat because more people than ever before can compete for the same business. He can make that assertion based on evidence that hits one between the eyes.

But if Friedman would ever want to know, a square world is flat selectively. It resembles a table of negotiation, where the guy with the most money always gets the cheapest price. It is a cube because there are inbuilt biases in the global exchange system.

We are all blind people trying to understand the elephant. And sometimes one`s handicap is even worse than blindness say if you are a line segment in a world of spheres.

Who dares show mirror to the wordlord?.Abhi munh dho kar aata hun
(Salon ne ess ko bhi presentation dikha di. Kithhe jaaye?)

a nice analysis with plenty of good points. I liked it - and found something on chowk which held my interest to the end.

I liked this in your reply below ``And sometimes one`s handicap is even worse than blindness say if you are a line segment in a world of spheres. ``. That is one hell of a point to make and very deep and thoughtful. :-() That could have and should have been the lead/intro to the article.

****The American dream is turning sour.****
One has to agree with the staement even though as kaalchakra has said much of the article`s anti-America bashing can be ignored.
So, is there a contradiction?
Well, no because the American dream`s souring has two components: they are attachment to too much consumption in Americans; we need statesmanship and some luck to bring Americans back to responsible consumption habits. The second one is a change in American leadership which is the easier of the two components to fix. Let us see what 2006 elections show. Let us see whether the execution of checks and balance is still secure.

With all due respect, this reads more like a wild chase from subtopic to another without any carefully constructed evidence. The thesis here is that American Dream is dead because of some of its institutions-but ideas connect these institutions are not explicated. There is a lot of stacking but no unpacking. Such as:

When was the American Dream alive? And for whom?

I also find the sections on ``copy paste`` a bit extraordinary. Is this piece saying that the world of ideas has been destructive because:

1. they destroy trees
2. there are too many of them
3. to present them to many reading audiences is to overload the world with ideas
4. because copy pasting does not make money, therefore it is useless?

I am at a loss for words....

#8 the emphasis seems to be that society puts making money as the only virtue - and in this results in a quick buck mentality - which means that ideas and concepts go out of the window and if you can pass of someone else`s ideas as your own - this becomes more efficient in the internet world where you need to do it fast before either (a) you are caught or (b) some copies your idea.

But who am I to say anything - let me get that in before you use that dreaded phrase ``with all due respect`` on me.......its like saying I think you are a blabbering idiot....

Re: # 8

Samina Shahid

Copypaste is a metaphor for how information is being created and shared. I referred to a book by Shapiro and Varian called, `Information Rules`. In this the authors have tried to analyze the economics of information.

Here is how I`d break the section down:

The world of ideas is limited--with a dejavu quality (copypaste); and why am I saying that:

Even though many words are being produced, thoughtful analysis and opinion is lacking in the mainstream.
There is incredible reliance on precedence rather than independent questioning.
People are intellectually lazy.
In Business, jargon is produced more often than really new ideas.

Perhaps this has an economic basis; it is easy to regurgitate older ideas since copy cost of information is 0. Businesses are told that their productivity can be so much higher if they just copy what the product that they made for one guy and make it for everyone.

However my pt was as also explained at length that the real cost is Unknown, Unmonetized since it is the opportunity to do something more original.

Re: # 7

Inquirer

Is it really that simple to fix? So, you don`t think that Bush is the face of what America has become? And that somehow one man because of major idiocy has done this to America? I am not so sure.

And also this article is really not America bashing. It is an attempt to understand just what is going wrong and where. So, I`d say it is America poking :).

S

Great Article Saima, Long, but what needs to be said, is said and that too in generous amounts. :-)

America right now reminds me of Oscar Wilde`s The Picture of Dorian Gray. The facade is one of self-proclaimed purity and righteousness and all things bright and beautiful, but beneath the thick veil (Drapes) it gets more and more diseased and sickly..

Re: # 11, Saima:
It is certainly not simple to fix. But due to a confluence of a few historical forces, America of 1950 found itelf declaring from rooftops that they are a democratic country in contrast to the Soviet Union which never made that claim seriously. Thus, sine the Nazi model had been discredited, theirs is the model world should follow. In reality that was not true at all. Only thing that was going for America was that its dynamic economy was in full swing. No doubt, that was the case due to the second world war`s influence. Gradually this self-delusion of democracy became overpowering in America. The Americans thought that they have always been democratic. That this was not so is amply documented in Franklin Roosevelt`s Memorial in Washington, D.C.

Then suddenly, the Soviet Union imploded and the forces representing rich Americans realized that that they no longer had to pretend to be democratic. The incentive simply did not exist anymore. And lo and behold Rehnquist made the the coup d`etat by declaring that Florida had to correct the errors of electoral procedure overnight. He even assured that this could not be considered precedent setting!! Rest is history!

Yet we do not have to give up hope. Administration is not Republican Party nor is Republican Party, US. I still believe that the resilience of American checks and balances would stand in good stead for America as well as the World. By declaring from the roof tops America`s commitment to democracy the forces may have been set in motion that would prevent America`s abandonment of democracy. The litmus test is due in 2006. Let us not despair.

Hooo. Such a critical finger-wagging naughty and nice article. started out simplistic and ended very astute. just two things, about the average American`s life earning being a graph where education is considered an expense that reduces credit worthiness, I disagree, while student loans do burden the average college goer, some considerably more than others, most Americans don`t see education as a terrible waste at all, quite the opposite. They know those costs can be recouped at any time over the next decades, and those that are willing to put in that much time and effort reap more than a fair share of benefits. And it doesn`t stop there. Just look at all the amount of training dollars spent annually by professionals of all levels/fields on keeping up their credentials, certifications, etc. People are willing to incur debt just to take a few courses that will enhance their careers. Companies today have entire departments dedicated solely to training and professional development for their staff, versus say thirty years ago when HR would be the end-all-know-all everyone bitched about.
and second, the corporation bit was very Royesque (arundhati).
The immigrant part was good, but #4, plastic vs metal. well, the Corporation always took in its own kind from the very beginning. that`s why it works so well. people with the same ideas on the same track going to the same destination always get there, who needs loose cannons or naysayers. they can go form their own corporations and play in the market on its footing fair and square. it`s a very simple model, and it works.
the copypaste part was hilarious. yes, it`s a pity that the last century had so much advancement from start to finish and things are just stagnating now. ford designed the basic ABC car and we`ll still driving it, with a few comfort updates. nothing new is being ``discovered`` or ``invented``, or so it seems. but behind the scenes, things are cooking just as much as before, in fact, even more. Kids today have resources that few could dream of in the 1880s and even 1950s, and they are able to tackle the challenges being put to them. being bombarded with computers, DVDs, ipods, LCD displays, and Elmo at age three, how much can one expect them to assimilate things quickly enough so that they can start to be productive and start churning out all those fantastic inventive oh ah ideas? Give it time. every few years will get an einstien who will revolutionize the world, but now we may get more than just a handful. so change and positive change will come, eventually, we are just taking things too much for granted to be able to see it. sorry for rambling.

#7, imo, the cake for 2006 will go to the Dems if history and hand-shake now-your-turn-to-spin-the-wheel politicking is anything to go by, for a low-key retirement-like four year run, after which... say, doesn`t Dubya have a brother?

re: somehow one man because of major idiocy has done this to America

psychopaths are rarely idiots. (not that I think Bush is either - he`s far too smart). plus, one man alone can`t control a Corporation, as you yourself said, the Corporation, in this case the Government, takes in just it`s own kind, and if Georgie Peorgie Pudding and Pie isn`t exactly it`s own kind, who is?

The USA has 4% (?) of the world`s population, yet uses 25% of the world`s resources. Based on this, there aren`t enough resources in the world for everyone to have the same living standards as Americans.

2/5th of the world`s population - China and India - barely used any of the world`s resources. If one throws in countries like Pakistan, Indonesia etc. that number goes beyond 2/5th.

Now these countries are demanding these resources also. Just to give you an idea, India, even today, uses the same amount of natural gas as Pakistan. Forget about the USA. The average Indian uses 1/7th the natural gas of the average Pakistani. What will happen when he wants to use the same amount of gas (or oil or anything) as the average American?

Based on this, the living standard in the USA is bound to go down. There is nothing the USA can do about it. Granted wrong foreign policies like Iraq or incorrect economic policies like what Bush has introduced, are accelerating the process. But it is impossible to maintain such a high living standard, forever, anyways. Unless one can keep utilizing 25% of the world`s resources.

The living standard of the average American is going to come down, not because IT jobs are being shifted to India or China. If my numbers are correct, less than a quarter of one percent of Indians are employed in the IT industry. And only a tiny % of Americans are also. The living standard will come down when 2.4 billion Chinese and Indians also want a chunk of those 25% of resources that the USA is using.

The price of the resources will go up, making it more expensive for the average American. Hence he will not be able to buy a new SUV, and will have to do with a small Huyndai. And his airline ticket for the annual vacation to Europe will become more expensive. Hence he will have to settle with Florida, etc.

Interestingly, I think Canada is quite nicely placed in this new world. Assuming it can delink its economy from a total dependence on the USA economy, and become a supplier to other countries, like China. Canada is heavily resource rich. It has far more than it needs. It has more oil reserves than Saudi Arabia. The Great Lakes contain 18% of the world`s fresh water in lakes. And Canadian rivers discharge 7% of the world`s river freshwater......Not to mention lumber, minerals and other export items........

Interestingly, Canada imports 25% of the USA`s total exports. USA exports twice as much to Ontario, as it does to Japan. USA exports more to Canada than to all countries of EU. Canada-USA is easily the largest trading partnership in the world. While 90% (?) of Ontario`s exports go to the USA. So, currrently, if USA goes under, so does Canada........

one suggestion:

the article should have the title: My very own private American Nightmare.

and this whole outpour - masked in spokesperson-like tone - would start to vibe-out almost to poignance ....

Dear Saima,

I must admit I had not read your articles, I have not been here long enough (in the scheme of things) and recently, when I saw the one with a title like “Sex, Rape,…”,etc. it kind of dissuaded me from reading further because it appeared sensationalistic. I did read through this one and tried to understand as much as I could.

Statements like “American dream has gone sour” based on markets going south sound quite sensationalistic and little else. The article is full of gross and sweeping generalizations – all unrelated. For example, the Patriots Act is a security measure – not an economic one. In any case, I think most people are likely to accept the words of Dr. Sen the Nobel laureate, over yours – especially when you make your “points” so half-heartedly and without any supporting information.

I personally believe the American dream is very much alive and thriving – and I also believe that the 280 million population thinks so too, which is the only important thing – and especially its “invisible” segment thinks so, which (you may be aware) is daily risking its neck to crash through those borders. I mean, we don’t see large-scale one-way flights OUT, do we?

It is unclear to me what you are trying to accomplish here. What would you like the Americans to do – fire the whole set of rulers and put in somebody else? A dictator, perhaps? You have any particular political leader in mind? If you don’t have any good alternatives to suggest, then this amounts to a “blog” but not a legitimate article.

Notes:
[But when the lion’s share of the big house, and the big car goes to a finance company, and all the nice things have a higher price than what you paid, Americans feel the terrible trap of consumer debt.]

With your business background you know this is a false statement. That lion’s share actually pays interest on a large loan that one CHOOSES to borrow at an interest rate one AGREES to. Nobody holds a gun to get a loan, either it is that, or paying rent (which means one pays another person’s mortgage). It is kind of hypocritical to criticize others for doing something they do as a rational choice - it is better than the alternative. (You realize a ‘zero percent interest’ situation would address your concern – for it will substantially reduce the monthly payment, is that what you would like in place?)


PS:

And while I am here, let me say this once (and only once) to S2.

S2, perhaps in your own mind you may at some point have had a good vision – but if you practice different (and un-even-handedly) from what you preach, your credibility is an automatic casualty. Everything else follows! It’s that simple.

This trivial interactor’s credibility is exactly that – of trivial consequence! Yours might be more substantial – or at one point, might have been.

And S2, you wonder why the baby is dying?!

And you think the “neem hakeem” with the same old medicines can handle it – without addressing THE “root cause”? (And don’t try to pin it on the hakeem, please – even an absolute newcomer like me knows the hakeem is a symptom – not the cause!)

I’m afraid the “baby” may already be dead!

Most deaths start in the mind!

And please believe me, I TRULY feel sorry – because perhaps at some point – this endeavor had an element of good intention!

Sincerely,
“Stan.”

Re: # 17
Romair, a question. If what you say is true, and there is aoing to be a resource crunch in the near future (it may have started already), and you say the US position is unsustainable, how in your opnion, would the rest of the population consume similar resources?you have allluded to it - like the US standard of living going down - but is that sustainable or feasible? Your statement Based on this, the living standard in the USA is bound to go down. There is nothing the USA can do about it has an air of bravado and doesnot carry much meaning - Can you expand on this?

You pose far too many questions, for small minds like myself to fathom.

This piece is a perfect example of a hand painting by a toddler. It’s too heavy on 7th grade economics lessons and less on facts. The beauty about the American model is that it is constantly being re-evaluated and adjusted. As new wealth is ‘created’, the pie is getting bigger and bigger. The American Dream is now a phenomenon only prevalent in other countries where people are lining up to immigrate to the US… they call it the Green Card dream.

A splendid article, and certainly NOT copy-paste.

Immigration:
In my part of the world many people cross the border and enter the U.S. (sometimes legally - often illegally) in order to make and save enough money to buy a home and a small business on return to their native land. They never intend to remain in the U.S.

Bush:
The PEOPLE of the U.S., in their ignorance and stupidity, chose George W. to ``lead`` their country and it is the PEOPLE who are responsible if things are turning sour. True, the first time around Bush didn`t get a majority of the popular vote, but it is the PEOPLE who have failed to correct a flawed system that allowed that to happen - a system that is in many respects anti-democratic.

Consumption Levels:
Well, if you think ``outside the box`` consumption levels can remain high in the U.S. even as other countries approach those same levels. It`s a matter of population control, world-wide. My rude friends put it nicely: ``You`ve fucked yourself out of a place at the dinner table.`` I don`t mean by this to indorse the U.S. level of consumption, I simply state the obvious - the difference between fewer people sharing limited resources and...but then, didn`t Malthus talk about this?

>>>>Bush:
The PEOPLE of the U.S., in their ignorance and stupidity, chose George W. to ``lead`` their country and it is the PEOPLE who are responsible if things are turning sour. True, the first time around Bush didn`t get a majority of the popular vote, but it is the PEOPLE who have failed to correct a flawed system that allowed that to happen - a system that is in many respects anti-democratic.<<<<


Mirmir Sahib… and the brilliant system of your part of the world is also a result of your PEOPLE that makes most of your PEOPLE to cross the border, because your PEOPLE cannot come up with a system that will keep them happy and employed in your part? I see, it is the other PEOPLE that keeps your PEOPLE underdeveloped. If you spent more time worrying about your PEOPLE and less about Bush, your PEOPLE might have a fighting chance of improving their lives that are not dependent on picking lettuce in neighboring country. May be?

I yearn to know the truth about US economy. Unfortunately, what I get instead is a liberal doom and gloom as this article presents or right wing zealots and nuts who portray a rosy picture. I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. I know that in the next ten years manufacturing will be phased out completely and along with it go all the manufacturing jobs just like what happened to the textile industry.

Saima,

In response to the following comments:

``Copypaste is a metaphor for how information is being created and shared. I referred to a book by Shapiro and Varian called, `Information Rules`. In this the authors have tried to analyze the economics of information.``

This passage makes clearer your focus on one economic interpretation of systems knowledge. It would be helpful to learn the background of this theory and what previous theories or contexts to which it is in response.

The theory itself contains the following thesis:


``The world of ideas is limited--with a dejavu quality (copypaste); and why am I saying that:

Even though many words are being produced, thoughtful analysis and opinion is lacking in the mainstream.
There is incredible reliance on precedence rather than independent questioning.
People are intellectually lazy.
In Business, jargon is produced more often than really new ideas. ``

In some ways one could say that most members of a society continually communicate repeated ideas, behaviors and world views-but arguably, it is this performance that allows them membership into societies that regulate and demand this adherence.

Secondly, I have yet to discover an idea that is independent of another idea. The very essence and identity of the idea is that it is a form of communication to other ideas. Scholarship is defined on the acknowledged knowledge making systems of the past-one does not create knowledge out of thin air-or ahistorically, acontexually or without an inherent agenda or call for social action. The plainest sentence illustrates this truth.

As an example:

1. What is my purpose in reading about the rioting that had taken place in French suburbs recently?

The answer is hopefully that I want to be informed of world events.

2. What is my purpose in informing myself of world events? (What is my agenda)

3. How does my purpose in informing myself guide my mythodology of information gathering?

4. Do I rely on news sources that can be fairly clearly labelled in terms of the explicit or implicit agenda of the business? What is my agenda in gathering as much diverse interpretation of this event/information? Where do I gather this information?

All of these actions are based around an acceptance of preceding info. Having had read the actual details of this event-I will automatically attach this info to a certain systemic world view-to economic, political, racial, gendered, colonialist, linguistic, transnational theory.

If I am really thinking, I will move through several theories that may overlap or contradict each other at various junctures.

But being able to do this requires of precedence of information-and in reading the thesis of theory you cite, I find it unsupportable that I can do this without precedent knowledge systems-in order for me to achieve an interdiscplinary and fresh reading of the event.

Having completed that-is my communicated my reading of this info rendered useless if I share it through the devalued medium of the copy paste article/email/blog etc?

Who decides what is the measure of value? How do you place a value on knowledge as per media?

Re: # 25

correction: methodology

--..-- #20: ``how in your opnion, would the rest of the population consume similar resources?Your statement Based on this, the living standard in the USA is bound to go down. There is nothing the USA can do about it has an air of bravado and doesnot carry much meaning - Can you expand on this?``

First of all, I have to say you have the most interesting nick on this site. Very creative.....

The answer to your question is that I don`t really know. I am not an economist. But I do try to read what economists write, and then see what makes the most sense. Here is what I have gathered:

If there are a fixed amount of resources in the world, which there is, then in a perfect situation those resources would be equally distributed across the world, thereby, leading to an equal living standard for everyone. However, that is not how the world works. The more efficient societies, through technology, force etc. tend to dominate the resources. Through technology, the use their own resources more efficiently. And through force they utilize the resources in the other countries (main reasons behind colonialism, war in Iraq etc.).

Now as the rest of the countries in the world becomes more efficient, through education, good governance etc., there ability to utilize and compete for resources increases. Also, there ability to protect there own resources, against aggression by more efficient countries, increases also. The British can no longer get the rates on South Asian cotton that they could when they owned South Asia. USA will not get the rates on oil, if the Middle East countries end up with strong nationalistic govts.

If India gets to a point where every citizen can afford a motorcycle, its demand for resources will increase. In addition, if it becomes more efficient as a country, it will have the wealth to compete for those country`s resources. It will, thus, attract far more of those resources towards itself, than it does now. If the USA uses 25% of the world`s resources today, if India successfully competes for 5% of those, USA will be down to 20%. Or it will have to pay more to remain at 25%.

This will result in a decrease in living standard in the USA. This is in relation to the lead the USA has over the rest of the world. Due to technological advances, living standards as a whole (medicine, longer life, safer cars and planes etc.) will continue going up. However, for every motorcycle that Ravi buys in Bombay, there will have to be Joe somewhere in USA who will have to pay more for fill his SUV. Which will leave him less money to spend on steak dinners...........

If we assume a utopian perfect world, with very equal resource distribution, one day Ravi will eventually move up to a Huyndai, and Joe will have to move down to one............Things won`t ever get that equal, but they will move in that direction...............To some extent, we are starting to see the initial state of that happening in IT...........The average living standard of the Indian IT developer is going to keep going up, while the growth in that of the average US IT person will not grow and probably decline, at some point.............

Re: # 25

Dear Samina

I think you have misunderstood the theory I referred to. It is an economic theory, subtly different from social theory-but highly illuminating in understanding the success and failure of new media industries e.g., software.

It is my opinion that academia relies too much on precedence. There is a general paucity of new ideas. In fact the system of academics, the method of research reduces the chances of a fresh theory because, for any theory to be posited it has to be `grounded` in preceding theory. There is a sense of linearity that can be suffocating. That is why academia produces very few radical ideas. Copypaste the metaphor is about not really even creating anything interdisciplinary--the example you gave has a lot more effort. Copypaste is noise where everything sounds alike. It is a metaphor for trade; how we do business and how we produce endless pieces of `information` that isnt really information anymore because it doesnt inform.

OK what does copy cost being zero really mean? It means that for a knowledge producer, who can convince the market to buy makes tons of money since copy cost of information is zero. It means that you dont incur the same costs that you do when you produce loaves of bread or any other physical output. It may be that because of this Internet blogs are devalued mediums since they cost nothing and there are so many of them.

Your questions are very valid. The market cannot place a value on information, that is why it copy pastes and that is why perhaps America is getting dumber over time? worth analyzing no?

rgds

S

Re: # 21

Re: # 21

The beauty of the American system is that it solves many problems. However I completely disagree that it will automatically readjust to correct itself. Any system has an input, a process, an output. If there are no inputs--things that are outside the loop of economics, then the system will not correct itself. Also, the market cannot anticipate very well. Certain things will be corrected long after the initial damage is done.

Anyway--more perhaps next column.

Regards

Saima

Re: # 19

The love affair with America has many phases. Perhaps you are in the first phase.

Rgds

S

Re#30

Dear Saima,

[The love affair with America has many phases.]
The same has been said of religion-based agendas.

[Perhaps you are in the first phase.]
Clearly, you don`t know the FIRST thing about me.

I bear you no malice. Cheerios.

Sincerely,
``Stan.``

Re#30 Saima (more)

[...has many phases.]

I am not in LOVE with the US - when can you understand this? I AM America - a part of it, anyway!

I think from INSIDE - can you do the same?

Do you have that ability, or will that create a conflict in mind?

Does objectivity have a role in developing credibility? Are you guys/gals objective?

Also, does selective muzzling build credibility?

Sincerely,
``Stan.``

PS:

Talking of phases, what did you do to T-Bhai? I would have liked to learn of HIS views, too - I sometimes wonder about the present phase of his loving relationship with this site - clearly, all that labor had an element of ``love`` - but perhaps, ``unlike`` you, he had an ``agenda``!

You are teaching us economics - can you guys/gals answer a math question? For example, how long is two days? (Hint: how does one spell - ``forever``?)

Re#30 Saima (even more, perhaps it is your lucky day!)

By any chance, were YOU the editor that waved through that Gandhi beauty which lighted up these corridors so superbly - and so aromatically?

Just curious, that`s all!

Saima Shah, {``The immigrant is invisible in American public space. It is as though he is ‘outsourced’ and is not really there in America. He pays taxes, he works but his identity, and his concerns and needs are of no interest to anyone but himself. America does not recognize the immigrant in public. However in private industry he is accepted as a worker. Compare this to the neighbor, Canada. Here the immigrant has a face, a concern and a politics in public space. However, he is rejected as a worker. Immigrants in Canada have a very rough time finding comparable work. But politically, Canada adopts several languages in government communication, multicultural days in school, holidays and recognition of traditional festivals at the workplace in cognizance of the problem of integrating a super diverse workforce.``}

Saima,
Good comparsion and an excellent essay about the ``vanishing`` dream. Still, I would prefer the pragmatism of the Americans over the empty idealism of the Canadians. Don`t be so alarmed, America may seem, especially to Muslims and Pakis, an unfriendly, even a hostile, host country. That is true and we can blame it all on a single event - the horrible and dastardly terrorist attack on WTC and Pentagon on 9/11/01. Even Americans are quite dejected for many reasons:

1. Another quagmire a la Vietnam in Iraq
2. Seemingly unending terrorism everywhere
3. Scandals in the Government
4. Unpopular president
5. Shift to the right
6. Fickle economy
7. Rising prices - especially energy (and in the winter time too).

But, America has been there before. Just when it seemed that the dream had become a nightmare and it was time to give the country back to the Injuns, thiings turned around - usually thanks to the energy, hard work, and tenacity of new immigrants:

1. Disaffection with the fruits of victory after the Revolution
2. Never ending warfare with the Indians
3. Devastating ``victory`` of 1812
4. Costly Civil War resulting in over half a million military deaths
5. Rampant corruption - carpetbaggers, reservation agents, con-artists
6. Assassinations - Lincoln, Garfield, McKinley, Kennedy, MLK, Kennedy
7. Race riots, urban ghettos, high crime, segregation, KKK, Jim Crow, Carpetbaggers
8. High crime due to immigrants - Irish, Italian, Chinese, Hispanics, Russians
9. Economic recessions - Depression, unemployment, bankruptcies,
10. Terrorism - Puerto Ricans, Al Capone, KKK, Anti-war, Hijackings, Bin Laden,

America has been there before and America has always bounced back, even stronger. Don`t worry be happy - GO SHOPPING

Re: # 28

Saima,

In reference to your comments

``I think you have misunderstood the theory I referred to. It is an economic theory, subtly different from social theory-but highly illuminating in understanding the success and failure of new media industries e.g., software.``

Besides the two theorists you have cited, any further suggested reading would be appreciated.

``It is my opinion that academia relies too much on precedence.``

Well, lets unpack this, shall we?

What is your definition of academia?

My definition of academia departs from the notion that it only concerns itself ideas found only produced text. Theory itself has thoroughly critiqued the role of textual production and its role in defining and administering the ideas of a given society or empire. We can thank the Marxists for that-although your average armchair capitalist wont readily admit that literary production (all genre of printed material) operates as an institutional function that makes and continue to make the rhetorical argument for a country`s domestic and international policies. Edward Said has used this lens to analyse how Europe and North America has used literary production to rationalize historical and modern day colonialist interactions with the Arab and Indian world. (the disciplines he spanned were: economics, literature, political science, cultural studies, language)

Ironically enough, were many so called Muslim critics today to run the production houses of North America, its doubtful that they would publish Said`s seminal book Orientalism, such is the intellectual laziness that motivates too many of them to past the fluidity of identities. Said, by the way, did write in support of Salman Rushdie. But he is not useful for these kinds of Muslims then-only when he is critiquing incisively the West.

I also wonder if you`d go to a surgeon with the attitude that its not necessary for her to know the relevant history of her speciality or keep up with new innovations. Would you expect her to develop new techniques that did not draw on the successes and failures of past efforts? I doubt it. So why apply this logic to other fields?

But back to the idea that academia only codifies and produces ideas that support particular systems knowledge-you`ll find in the last 30 years a rewriting and revisioning of the kinds of work and engagements that are relevant to as many experiences and realities that exist today-and this is due to the efforts of scholars who see the knowledge systems everywhere. How one is expected to communicate these interrogations? Does a press become devalued if they print groundbreaking work from activists and unpublished writers? What happens to the act of responding to the mainstream institution if one addresses it in mass medium?

Nick Flynn has a great comment where he says a blank piece of paper is worth more than one with something written on it, because if someone has written on a piece of paper, then that paper cannot be sold to another, loses its value. In the business world, that makes sense, but if you think it about, its a kind of insanity that dictates that the thought of a person is valueless. Why read books or anything? Why communicate?

Finally, internet blogs and sites may be considered ``valueless`` in terms of the theory you are citing. However, they are putting mass media out of business. People -and many Americans- are going to alternative websites to get their news and interpretations-websites that arent part of the production of empire.

Re#34 Chauhan
(Why does the word ``chooha`` come to mind?)

[Good comparsion and an excellent essay about the ``vanishing`` dream. Still, I would prefer the pragmatism of the Americans over the empty idealism of the Canadians.]

You LOVE to be on both sides of an issue, don`t you - as in ``sitting on the fence``? (Just my opinion, of course, based on what you say here. I have no way to know if there is any sincerity at all in those statements, anyway, or in anything else you may be saying.)

Re: # 34

Chauhan Sahib…the earlier challenges to America were not as bad as the current one. We are talking about an ideological enemy, with a missing head and a desire to have sex with 72 virgins. The sob is hard to please and even harder to get rid of. Al-Capone was a piece of cake compared to Al-Musawi Al-Zarkwai.

What do you think about what is happening in France? Do you think it is also some result of some American dream?

Re#34 Chauhan (further thoughts)

I hope you don`t take the chooha remark personally! At least you were not decorated with stronger terms - like ``moron``, which some people around here were!

I personally think Prithviraj was a great historical figure - especially BEFORE he was helplessly blinded - yet he seldom lost his accuracy of shots even afterwards.

re something #20 said, imo, resources are an ever-changing mix. you didn`t factor in progress when Ravi moves up to a hyundai, Chris may also move up, to a Boeing. today set resource allocation may be hypothetically x% steel x% plastic x% quartz x%human capital etc, once progress/technology/changes in productivity/political climate as conducive to labor conditions/natural disasters etc come in, that resource allocation can change.

sorry, I meant Romair #27

actually he did address that, my apologies. my PC screen was stuck on just the last para.

Re: # 41

Gorrila… Yes, the idea of a fixed pie is an old concept. The new though is that of ‘wealth creation’. 20 years ago, someone would have killed Bill Gates for mentioning that there will be time when real-time information can be exchanged between various parties using a keyboard. Some people are still looking at the world thru Telex system.

Yes, there is such a thing as sustainable development where resources are more efficiently managed. The entire world can fit into the Long Island of the NY. Israelis have two citrus crops a year in the same desert where Arabs couldn’t grow a camel’s dick. The idea is that instead of eyeing other people’s cake, you bake your own.

Stan #36 and #38 {``(Why does the word ``chooha`` come to mind?) ...
You LOVE to be on both sides of an issue, don`t you - as in ``sitting on the fence``? I have no way to know if there is any sincerity at all in those statements, anyway, or in anything else you may be saying...

hope you don`t take the chooha remark personally! I personally think Prithviraj was a great historical figure - especially BEFORE he was helplessly blinded - yet he seldom lost his accuracy of shots even afterwards. ``}

Stan as in home or land :)

No, I am really not a rodent - nor reptile, nor bird, nor an airplane. It just seems that way, depending on your perspective. :)
Yes, I think I am sincere, although I really don`t have a do or die attitude about anything.
Prithviraj Chauhan was a generous and kind man. May Allah give him a place in heaven. Ameen.

Kulharee #37 {``#Chauhan Sahib…the earlier challenges to America were not as bad as the current one. We are talking about an ideological enemy, with a missing head and a desire to have sex with 72 virgins. The sob is hard to please and even harder to get rid of. Al-Capone was a piece of cake compared to Al-Musawi Al-Zarkwai. ...What do you think about what is happening in France? Do you think it is also some result of some American dream? ``}

Dear Axe Bhai,
All of these scoundrels look domineering and unique when they are on the loose. Once apprehended, they all tend to look like Al and Sadman Houston. :) Both Zarkawi and UBL will look like the pathetic little weasel that was arrested and carried off screaming and kicking in Karachi a while back or sedated like the KSM fellow arrested in Lahore - I swear it looked like he needed his back to be shaved.

#37, Kulharee Bahi,
You asked how I felt about the events in France. If you are referring to the riots by African and Arab youths, I can simply say:
``Jiss thaali meN khatey heN, ussi meN ....``

Let them go back to their home countries for a better life. :)

Re: # 45

>>>>Let them go back to their home countries for a better life. :)<<<<

Salim Bhaijan, I never thought I will find anything to disagree with you about. Well, I have found one. I don’t think that they should go back to their countries. I think the problem is that France has failed them. Its policies have always been anti-immigrant (French TVs don’t have ‘colored’ anchors; can you imagine that in the USA?). The ghettoization of France resulted in what you see today. I simply pointed it out to the anti-American Chowkies who are always telling us how bad the US is. Well, hello, why don’t they have to say anything about the French? Hello again, Canada is no different. Canada is a France in waiting. Muslims in Canada are as marginalized as they are in Europe. USA is the only place that has allowed (through its laws and policies) all its immigrants to become part of the mainstream; not only to have a wet American dream, but also see it materialized. 2nd Generation Indians in the US have higher income levels than Jews. Son of Pakistani cabbies can dream to attend Harvard and Princeton. In places like England, Canadia, and France, they can only hope to get to be the first in the line to collect the dole.

I think not only the KSM needed to have his back shaved, but I think he is not the real monkey. Sob looked so pathetic. Why do all these people look so fuked up? Have some respect for Jihad at least – look presentable.

#45 eh? just because some country gave them a place to live they ought to be treated like insects? As immigrants most of them earned the right to live there. They deserve all their rights like every other citizen.

All immigrants, not just muslim ones, are marginalized in Canada. White Canada likes to reserve them for labor jobs as much as it possibly can.

yes #46, you can imagine that in the USA. colored - read black - anchors are called tokens, just like colored ceos, programmers, researchers, etc. that`s why ``People, Learning and Development`` runs ``diversity training`` forums.

Just so there is no misunderstanding!

Clarification on #38

[At least you were not decorated with stronger terms - like ``moron``, which some people around here were! ]

SHOULD HAVE BEEN...

``At least you were not decorated with stronger terms - like ``moron``, which some people around here were decorated with!``

One can never ever be sure that one won`t be misunderstood - mostly on purpose, of course!

Kulharee #46 {``Salim Bhaijan, I never thought I will find anything to disagree with you about. ...France has failed them. Its policies have always been anti-immigrant (French TVs don’t have ‘colored’ anchors; ,,, Canada is no different. Canada is a France in waiting. Muslims in Canada are as marginalized as they are in Europe.``}

Axe Bhai,
One question. How come it`s the Muslim immigrannts bent upon violence and destrucition in France. Mon dieu, there are Vietnamese, Cambodian, Christian blacks, Caribbean islandanders and others. Why is it that only Muslims (black or Arab) are engaged in this nonsense? There are other more decent and far more effective ways of protesting in democracies. I have observed life in Canada and I do not see the kind of discrimination that is being indicated by some. Maybe I need to revisit Canada.

Also, even if US has better laws concerning discrimination and the fact that it presents a much fairer and more objective set of opportunities for Muslims, we certainly have a curious way of showing our appreciation. We need to treat UBL, AlKayda, and other ``Islamic`` terrorist organizations as our own enemies.

Re: # 35My definition of academia departs from the notion that it only concerns itself ideas found only produced text. Theory itself has thoroughly critiqued the role of textual production and its role in defining and administering the ideas of a given society or empire.

This statement is true and valid only for the arm chair socialists and sociological/liberals art. In the sciences this changes.

In fact in science radical ideas/notions often are independent of of the past and precedence. That is in fact the problem with most social scineces - since they always return to an equialibria which is dictatorial or dogmatic (as thie above and other posts indicate). Science is the the only liberating entity in this world, the rest bind you down. social science`s lot were the ones who finished Copernicus and Galileo.

Whatever Said said is also true of the arab world. The issue there is not one of copy paste per say (like for example what happens occasionally on Chowk). The rapid flow of information in the 21st century is such that it encourages copy paste, the speed of life is such that there isno time to think things through - and we are often left with copy and paste. If you followed the discussion between Kaalchakra and your friend Dotty (here on the fp and later on UP (along with a few others like Dr Dr)- this was precisely this. Kaalchakra by citing Tubek`s robust methods was seeming to provide a basis/justification for the here and now scoiety where as Mr Dots was suggesting that progress was essentially dependent on the system being a markov chain. (its a bit esoteric but the parallels are there - and there are a number of people working on use of these two in economics and the theory of ideas). Occasionally it pays to move away from the confines of a marxist framework, and move to the purely scientific.

As an aside, what are yours, and others on this board, thoughts on the fact that 100% of the costs of any product on earth rightnow are the costs of labour. Resources have zero costs attached to them!. If you own a car - the cots of the car is essentially cost of the labour - and zero for digging up the material from the earth

On a personal level, apologies for this, you seem way to blinkered in your own little niche of scholarship, that what is beyond your nose is not visible to you - or you refuse to understand it!


Also can you keep this simple. The dense paragraphs you output from your keyboard need not one, or two, or three, or four but 6 readings to make sense. Something a lot simpler, with fewer comas, colons, and semi colons would make it more readale. Then, i.e after reading the tex finally when I parased it using google, the result was amazing.

Re: # 34

:) LOL.

A neat sweep over a wide canvas. The article and post 34 (Salim C.) got me thinking. First, inspite of the cut and paste nature there is a lot of information on the US. Second, the education system in the US makes you confident enough to come up with your own ideas and arguements. Unlike, say the old British system, Saima and Salim are not making their arguements by saying that ``Marx said so..`` or ``Ricardo said so..`` etc. Third, immigrants (at least to a certain extent, relatively speaking) do not have to bend down to mainstream ideas. Moreover, even in their own domain they can freely put forth different ideas and argue. The first, second and third point provide an arena for the growth of fresh ideas. This to a great extent is missing, at least in India and Pakistan. While Saima may very well be justified in feeling pessimistic and Salim in feeling optimistic, I feel that at present the US is the best arena for the growth of frest ideas. In fact the stark polarities in the US will probably help. People cannot remain stupid forever.

Re: # 53

Thanks for the reply.

I am not `feeling` pessimistic.

Quite simply, if US is the best place for fresh ideas in the world today, it has a big fight ahead to stay that way. And the government seems least concerned about fluffy goals like freedom of speech, democracy, quality of education, healthcare affordability etc etc.

The state of the US economy is very intriguing.

Re: # 14

``They know those costs can be recouped at any time over the next decades, and those that are willing to put in that much time and effort reap more than a fair share of benefits. And it doesn`t stop there. Just look at all the amount of training dollars spent annually by professionals of all levels/fields on keeping up their credentials, certifications, etc. People are willing to incur debt just to take a few courses that will enhance their careers. Companies today have entire departments dedicated solely to training and professional development for their staff, versus say thirty years ago when HR would be the end-all-know-all everyone bitched about.``

I keep bumping into people who went back for second or third degrees but didnt get the jobs they wanted coz the jobs disappeared. How come almost every new graduate these days has to struggle for a job? The idea that for sure you will get a good job if you have a good degree is no longer true. People are therefore not so sure that sacrificing a few years for a degree will necessarily provide a better job. Trade certifications are somewhat different. Corporations support on the job learning if it complements an existing job and people get to that position over time. However if the pay-off from training is less than outsourcing Corporations will not send people back to school to train them, instead they will be fired.

Re: # 54

``I am not `feeling` pessimistic.``
Thanks for correcting me. Sorry for the assumption.

Yes you are right in some sense, the US has a big fight ahead. But not the people living in the polity of the US.....they simply have a big challenge ahead. But isn`t it what people like you ( and perhaps me) live for?

Re: # 14

Enjoyed all your comments.

On the Royesque. Thanks but I am technically an `insider`. A corporate employee type. Whereas Roy could anthropomorphize the corporation--demonize it and make it out to have a brain and an evil heart, I unfortunately for me know exactly what the corporation is about. It is the great nothing of the 21st century. A nonentity populated by bossy people. A fishpond. A children`s playground of nasty little ones. There is no evil in a Corporation, other than the rivalry of the people who work in it and who totally loathe each other. A Corporation is, in other words highly over rated and can go the way of the dinosaurs very soon since it is so inefficient. I promise you a whole column on the Corporation.

Re#54 by SaimaShah

[Quite simply, if US is the best place for fresh ideas in the world today, it has a big fight ahead to stay that way.]

My janitorial understanding is that a free and competitive environment is a GOOD thing at all levels – even among nations – and definitely inside the nation. Countries which encourage it thrive because every one tries his/her best to excel and beat the competition.

[…And the government seems least concerned about fluffy goals like freedom of speech, democracy, quality of education, healthcare affordability etc etc.]

These appear to represent different things:

(1) Freedom of speech is a guaranteed (first) bill of right – it is not for ANY government to decide on or award (and chowk has not REALLY distinguished itself as a guarantor of that right, so this is a fine bunch to accuse others!)

(2) Democracy is the overall umbrella – what we have in this country is a republican form of government – mandated by the constitution – not for a particular administration (of either party) to decide.

(3) The remainder are “welfare state” items – they are not guaranteed by anybody or for anybody in this country. Personally I would be very suspicious of ANY government which started to want to do so many “good” things for me – it is quite likely they will soon start telling me what IS good for me – including what TYPE of “democracy” (you get my drift).

Sincerely,
Beej.

Re: # 54

I forgot to add something...Yes, the govt. is extra powerful. But if the indivudual were to challenge the govt., you perhaps have a greater chance in the US...perhaps.

I may be wrong, but you can tell me where else.

After all Md. Yusuf did not challenge the govt. of Bangladesh.

GT.

Re#55 Saima

[I keep bumping into people who went back for second or third degrees but didnt get the jobs they wanted coz the jobs disappeared.]

The whole idea of a “degree” translating into employment is faulty and it is unfortunately so deeply rooted in the sub continental psyche. The jobs should create themselves for those who are innovative and are able to figure out how to make themselves useful in the existing, changed society – indeed such individuals become the SOURCE for future jobs. Don’t write off the American innovative spirit so easily.

[How come almost every new graduate these days has to struggle for a job?]

Because transition periods are generally difficult – for everybody – but end up working out the best in the end – overall! What may look like a bleak period temporarily for some of the graduates – they will figure out eventually on what is the best thing for them to do individually – and a few years from now, will be proud individuals who will tell their children how they were able to overcome all these hardships and still thrive “back in those days”!

[The idea that for sure you will get a good job if you have a good degree is no longer true. People are therefore not so sure that sacrificing a few years for a degree will necessarily provide a better job. Trade certifications are somewhat different. Corporations support on the job learning if it complements an existing job and people get to that position over time. However if the pay-off from training is less than outsourcing Corporations will not send people back to school to train them, instead they will be fired.]

Life long employment is a thing of the past now – as it should always have been. If people are productive and innovative – they will thrive much better in this type of environment. It is immensely better for individuals to be separated from unprofitable positions where they are not doing their best – the disruption may feel like hardship (and indeed it is) – but virtually every one is able to find something that better suits their skills and temperament and also boosts motivation, of course! (There is nothing like guaranteed employment to kill innovation.)

Re: # 60

``The jobs should create themselves for those who are innovative and are able to figure out how to make themselves useful in the existing, changed society – indeed such individuals become the SOURCE for future jobs. ``


Yes,..very good! But what about those who try real hard and are not able to figure out. After all, if you know a bit about ``prediction theory`` you will agree that this is not easy. Should we forget about this group. In fact, if this intelligent group were to believe in your thery and then feel left out, is it OK for them to declare the rest ``heretic`` and take up the gun? please think...nay, feel a bit (if you can) before rewplying.

GT.

Saima ji, I think enough about what’s wrong with the USA, now tell us what can be done to make you happy, I mean to make the USA the best place in the world. List a few economic policy initiatives that the US should institute to become a picture image of Canada or something closer.

Thanks

Bush is saying ``we do not torture``... I am watching CNN.

You plan to write on this:

``A nonentity populated by bossy people. A fishpond. A children`s playground of nasty little ones. There is no evil in a Corporation, other than the rivalry of the people who work in it and who totally loathe each other. A Corporation is, in other words highly over rated and can go the way of the dinosaurs very soon since it is so inefficient.``

From a historical perspective, if you are honest ehough (i.e. hard working enough) please try to differentiate it (or compare it) with Bush`s regime, the Saudi regime, the Sonia Gandhi regime and The Mushy regime.

GT.

p.s. my one year old wants to punch the keeboard so I am costrained in my interact.

You plan to write on this:

``A nonentity populated by bossy people. A fishpond. A children`s playground of nasty little ones. There is no evil in a Corporation, other than the rivalry of the people who work in it and who totally loathe each other. A Corporation is, in other words highly over rated and can go the way of the dinosaurs very soon since it is so inefficient.``

From a historical perspective, if you are honest ehough (i.e. hard working enough) please try to differentiate it (or compare it) with Bush`s regime, the Saudi regime, the Sonia Gandhi regime and The Mushy regime.

GT.

p.s. my one year old wants to punch the keeboard so I am costrained in my interact.

Re: # 64

GT Sahib, the same also kinda made my eyebrows rise. That’s one grand joke if I have ever heard one. Walmart alone (one measly Corporation) imports 80% of what China sends to the USA, you can imagine if Walmart became defunct, what will happen to consumers in the US (and who the hell cares about what might happen to Chinese – cheap labor). I think Saima was just banging her fingers on the keyboard when she wrote this.

Let you baby play with the keyboard, s/he might also come up with some major, hopefully better, theories.

Meanwhile, Showkat Aziz is live on CNN addressing the Donors in Islamabad.. he has a huge Kashkool the size of Texas …I pray to Allah that it gets filled, if not for Pakis, for poor Kashmiris.

#58/59 plus other replies

All the comments are really interesting. We all go back to this one idea; ok, so US stinks in some parts. Ok. But then where else to go? This is still the best system so what can your critique really do? Comparisons to India/Pakistan/Europe etc. come up. So many people take the path of, `it ain`t really broke, why fix it?.`

The fact is I don`t really know what is right for immigrants to do. I don`t have any solutions. I just write about what I saw, understood and wondered about.

Let`s bring it down to complete basics; IMHO it isn`t the best system because it ignores that you exist. You work here all your life and you never belong politically. You can live in America for 15-20 years and never vote--so the comment about it being easier to change the system in US--well only if you have that blue passport. That if you get time from your day job, raising children and family. And where will you start? Will you write to CNN to tell them about what is going on and how disenfranchised you feel because you have been living here for 15 years without the basic right to vote? I havent seen that sort of thing in media (fairly common in Canada). Why? Because you are afraid of being ridiculed or coming on to a dangerous watch list of some sort? You are American so you don`t want to draw attention to the fact that you weren`t. or Aren`t or whatever. Why is that?

It is the wealthiest system so you can afford more things than you can anywhere else in the world. Well, it isn`t getting wealthier so thats a cause for concern because costs are rising and eventually that means lower living standards.

It also uses technology in everything, so you will know how to operate a number of systems and gadgets. You will drive cars your ancestors dreamt about. You will have gadgets in your house for everything, over time you wont be able to operate anything and feel embarassed that you have to ask your kids to turn on the tv.

You will most likely die of cancer because the food is rotten because it does not rot.

If you are naturalized, you will always feel apologetic that you weren`t born American.

When you visit home, you get a lot of admiring looks but those visits are kind of rare. If thats the time you feel happiest about being in America, it is kind of worrisome.

You will always wonder if you did the right thing for your children. When they end up at Berkeley and what else you will feel that you did do the right thing, because now you will be counted as part of the very best people in the world. But when they make it abundantly clear that your needs are not part of their life, you will wonder again.

When you lose your job, become ill or need something from the government, that is the time to see if this system is the best. It is a ruthless system, it compensates the strong at the expense of the weak.

Someone said that we are engaging in dialogue because of the confidence the American system gave us. That isn`t true. I joined Chowk in 1997 in Karachi. Academically, I am a product of IBA, Karachi and Canada. But I do see your point. The American culture imparts confidence. One becomes more direct and forthright living here. The best American insitution is the entrepreneur. Some of the most brilliant people thrive in a capitalist system. The miracle of capitalist creativity is the best side of America. But for how long, is the question.

Re#61 by GT

[Yes,..very good! But what about those who try real hard and are not able to figure out. After all, if you know a bit about ``prediction theory`` you will agree that this is not easy. Should we forget about this group.]

LIFE is not easy. There have always been groups of people in every society who do not make it – for example, the US prison population disproportionately represents certain minority groups of its population – I am not promoting or denouncing them – it is simply a fact of life (and clearly not limited to the US, perhaps it is a relatively rosier situation in that country even for those who “lose out” (let’s be honest here)) – and like all facts of life, people eventually adjust to them. It is a peculiarity of (our) subcontinent that whoever seems to be losing out immediately:

(1) Starts complaining and playing the victim.

(2) Starts demanding his/her “fair share” as a given right – without having a clue (or caring to think about) how THEY could be of use in turn. The demands cwould be either for a handout, subsidy, quota, or a government program.

(3) Starts crying “injustice” and agitating – perhaps damaging the setup more – sometimes the infrastructure (burning buses and the like), instead of coming up with an original or constructive approach.

[In fact, if this intelligent group were to believe in your theory and then feel left out, is it OK for them to declare the rest ``heretic`` and take up the gun?]

What you call “taking up the gun” is quite a typical manifestation of item (3) listed above – our people are sometimes very quick to solve our problems through using the gun rather than reason. (I could even go further and accuse that this Chowk administration’s quickness in banning selected interactors in a very biased manner is a very typical illustration of that same trait and that sub-continental mindset while the present article itself is perhaps a manifestation of (1))

If we believe that we are ALL God’s children – and not mere puppets and clones of whatever group – social, religious, regional, that we identify with – we would work on ourselves to improve our LOT rather than demanding such improvement for us from others.

We all have an equal opportunity to learn from our individual experiences (including failures) and to try to make better attempts and readjust our approaches.

Not everyone is willing to take advantage of such a God-given opportunity, of course – complaining is a LOT easier!

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Dear Saima:

I can`t wait to see the corporation go away the way of dinosaurs. As they say sooner rather than later. All corporations have created a big clot on the world economic life line. They have taken humanity as hostage. And this is one of the reasons we see huge demonstrations against the world trade organization.

You probably have heard that Coca Cola Company got their @ss kicked in Mexico by a simple lady who owns a convenience store in Mexico City. Due to this verdict in Mexico, Coke, whose Mexican market is the largest amongst all of its international markets, will have to modify its business practice. This was just a blip on the BBC-TV this morning. I did not see this news item covered by the main stream US TV-media (ABC, CBS, NBC).

I disagree with you when you say there is no evil in Corporation. Actually, in recent years Corporation`s behavior in many countries have been seen as evil. These corporations want free access to other countries resources and enters those societies in the name of free market and then they rob them. If this is not evil, then what is?

Actually employees are just pawns in the big scheme of things that they have no control over, and they are always being swooshed around in circles, until they lose their integrity and humanity. These corporate employees are fed constantly to worship their chieftans almost to diety levels. Go to any major bookstore in the US and you will find this worshipping in the business section. You will find books on leadership and you will find that the only leadership that matters are these unscrupolous leaders of Corporations. They have made themselves ubiquitous in their own self praise and admiration, as if they are the present day Maharajas, and we have to bow to them.

I cannot wait to read your column on Corporation.

Respectfully submitted,

Re: # 67

Believe me, if you are smart enough you do not end up in jail. You play the system....and it is not very difficult.

Re#66 by SaimaShah

Saima, I do not wish to minimize the intensity of your frustrations and the fact that perhaps there are many others who feel a bit along similar lines – perhaps especially in the area of civil rights, in the current climate of heightened security fears. Certainly, it is perfectly legitimate and a God-given right (and perhaps duty) to express such fears.

Note: you started out talking about ALL Americans but you have now narrowed it to the immigrant experience.

Immigrants generally never have it as easy as the “native” population – that has been the case in the US ever since its early days. In fact, immigrant rights (even illegal immigrant rights) are protected just as much as anybody else’s – under the constitution. However, if one compares with what the Irish immigrants underwent, the Eastern European immigrants did, and the saddest of them all, the African Americans did – the present day South Asian immigrant experience comes out sounding like a fairy tale. But there is always room for improvement – provided the approach is right (and abides by democratic norms)! Perhaps the US living standards were not as good in the past as presently – which means that perhaps it could happen to go the other way too –and worsen! Again, just a fact of life!

Tons of bad things can happen to individuals – whether in US or in the subcontinent or elsewhere.

I must disagree with you on “If you are naturalized, you will always feel apologetic that you weren`t born American.” – Why should anybody? – We are all covered by the same supreme laws – of that constitution! Those who suffer from any complexes along these lines should aggressively work to reduce them. I have also stated elsewhere (I forget where and when) that one problem with the subcontinent is that the parents get too involved in the lives of children and try to plan those out meticulously – a bit too much so.

At this point, it is appropriate to put in some good words on this article – and my main observation is that your honesty in expressing your feelings is to be appreciated. At least you have not been pretentious in this article – you wrote what you felt and were not afraid to discuss it – and did not become defensive by being worried about a “loss of face” as I have seen some writers do here – perhaps again a sub continental trait!

Re: # 66


You impart so much feeling, not linguistic explanation, that I agree (how I do not know). At the same time, I do not think that you are complaing about the system. You are simply expressing frustration at not being able to come up with a universal language to put forth your theorem (tautology or feeling)....Actually I am grasping at edges too.

Gt.

Re: # 45
chacha chauhan...
can we apply the same rule on altaf bhai and his followers and send them back to where ever they came from for a better life...;)

Re: # 66

Dear SaimaShah:

One thing that all immigrants from South Asia must get used to real fast in America is to be a rugged individual. Unlike the South Asian culture of dependency, America creates values for those who depend on themselves. And that has always been America`s strength.

[IMHO it isn`t the best system because it ignores that you exist. You work here all your life and you never belong politically.]

This is because immigrants are mostly confused about politics. Democracy is difficult. Making decisions are difficult. Which party to vote for is difficult. Personally, I have always studied the issues and voted in almost all elections. So, I do not accept your premise that ``you never belong politically.``

[Because you are afraid of being ridiculed or coming on to a dangerous watch list of some sort? You are American so you don`t want to draw attention to the fact that you weren`t. or Aren`t or whatever. Why is that?] Saima, that is simply not true.

[You will most likely die of cancer because the food is rotten because it does not rot.] I like that play of words..... `` the food is rotten because it does not rot``.

[If you are naturalized, you will always feel apologetic that you weren`t born American.] I have never felt that way.

[It is a ruthless system, it compensates the strong at the expense of the weak.] Yes, agreed.

[The American culture imparts confidence. One becomes more direct and forthright living here. The best American insitution is the entrepreneur. Some of the most brilliant people thrive in a capitalist system. The miracle of capitalist creativity is the best side of America.] And that is what the immigrants should be doing instead of jumping on the corporate gravy train that makes them lethargic.

[But for how long, is the question.]... As long as we have the good old American political system intact, that has not been hijacked by the two party system.

Now, you are swaying away from your article.

Respectfully submitted,

Re: # 66

Actually, to communicate, I should let you know that I cannot express myself well in language (?). I work on applied game theory (and hence GT). The rigours of the structure of this language (?) truncate my thoughts. Of course, therefore, when I go beyond I make mistakes in communicating (which are prone to misunderstandings). Anyway I enjoy the process, and my last post (as well as others) didn`t mean to be paternilistic. Please do try to understand.