Religion In A Clubby Hole

Re: # 242

dost-mitttar,

....... i think by now you have an appreciation for the pain of the pakistani people at the hands of their omniscient military :)

..... so be gentle ........

Romair:

You are in a pointless discussion. We have all ``admitted defeat`` and accepted that science has not provided answers to the mysteries of life and death and may never do so. Now, can we get to the other debate that people want to engage in, i.e., the myths and superstitions purveyed by religions that they know what scientists do not? And why is Satya Baba a charlatan but long dead people claiming to be prophets or Gods were not so?

parthaab:

I have never accepted Sai Baba`s miracles to be anything but tricks. I was only giving him as a benchmark. Why is it easy to dismiss him as a charlatan while accepting equally ridiculous claims of long-dead people based on hearsay.

Re: # 232


romair mian,

unknowingly you have proven einstein`s formula e=mc2 : a very very small amout of grey matter (mass) can be converted into a very very large amount of nonsense (energy) !!!!!

.... .... if you remember you had asked me to give you an example of how/when scientific ``laws`` were proven wrong - i gave you one (one that most children are familiar with) and now you want to go back to your ``0=0 interpretation`` of poor einstein`s theory ...... the way i understand it is that all he said was that energy (including radiation and light) has the properties of mass and one form of energy can be transformed into another .......... but i don`t think science has discovered all forms of energy yet and there is no definition of ``nothing`` ...... and yes, i am perfectly willing to believe that one day someone will be able to prove that under certain conditions einstein`s theory might not hold up (just like newton`s) ......... what happens if a particle is accelerated to a million times the speed of light ? .......will it disappear or become a form of energy that we cannot see, feel or measure .?......... . i am willing to bet that it becomes god !

........ now i have exhausted my knowledge of particle physics and have nothing more to add except point out, once again, that my beef is with the character of god not with his existence .......

Satya Sai baba has been challenged several times to submit his `miracles` to scrutiny. He is escaping every time into she shelter of the hundreds of gullible devotees that surround him. Not only the Bible but many religious books and mythologies contain such stories as walking on water, lifting up a mountain or breaking the moon. They never happened. They are just myths ascribed to prophets to make them look great and extraordinary. This very attempt has distorted the picture of the prophets and separated them from the people. Christ did not require walking on water to prove his greatness. His Sermon on the Mount, service to the people and chastisement of anything in sincere were sufficient to make him respectable. On the other hand by ascribing miracles to great men, the usefulness of their lives was lost, since people worshipped them rather than adopting the way of life which they taught and showed by example. If `miracles alone would make a man great, every juggler would be great.

The belief in god has little to do with miracles. The faith is an expression of the slave mind of man. The vested interests in slavery divert attention and side track thinking of miracles. The greatness of anyone consists in honest living and service to the people but never in making `miracles.` Those who talk of miracles are either dupes or cheats.

Caste system was based upon faith in karma and rebirth. It laid down that wicked characters were destined to be born in lower castes. So the assumption of division of labour and specialization of functions do not hold good in respect of the caste system. On the contrary, caste system held people apart in isolations in grades of degradation ending in untouchability. Therefore caste system is antisocial and inhuman. It subsisted in early times when people were religiously superstitious. In this age of democracy and equality, caste system is not only outmoded, but opposed to social justice and love for equality.

Division of labour is a social convenience and skills can be hereditarily communicated. But there should be no bar on change of professions according to change of tastes and no profession should be held inferior to another. In the caste system there was arrogance of intellectual professionalism in the Brahmins, while manual labour and tasks of sanitation were deemed menial and loathsome.

The prejudice against atheism is a fact. People are accustomed to consider atheism wicked. Bible and Quran rail at ``unbelievers``.

``The American Atheist`` recounts the disabilities imposed upon the atheists in U.S.A. It tells that ``Atheists cannot adopt. Atheist cannot have blank dog tags in the army. Atheists cannot join the Masons Scouts or V.F.W. without first lying by taking an oath of belief in god. Atheists are now excluded from government employment, unless they lie. Atheists have difficulty with passports. Atheists cannot even purchase time on most T.V. and radio stations.``

phir ham apni bajatay hein.

dhoom dhoom tananana, tana na na ray.........

Re: # 235

Apni apni daphli aur apna apna raag(One`s own drum and one`s own drumbeat)

Re: # 234 yeah but these older folks are getting into some obscure discussions in which one is trying to disprove what other doesn`t want to talk about.

Re: # 233

God created Man or Man created God??

Would somebody explain to me what is the point we are trying to make here ?

hamidm mian #231: ``newton and einstein.....heisenberg .......``

Do explain to me how Einstein and Hiesenberg discard what I am saying. Don`t they simply prove it even more........It is, infact, Einstein`s e = mc2, which shows that while energy and matter can switch from one to the other, if one is 0, the other will be 0..........

`` if you try hard enough you can come up with a scenario where given a different set of conditions, the definition of ``nothing`` might be different ...........``

Do point me to these scenarios. This what I am asking you to do. If you are so sure that the scientific theorires around energy and matter are wrong, then educate me. Seriously speaking. I am more than happy to change my mind. Unlike yourself, I don`t have ideological beliefs. I try to follow science........

One cannot pick and chose science, i.e. accept it when it suits our ideologies. And simply state that it is false and will be proven false, if it does not suit our ideologies. As I keep saying, you are stuck in an ideological comfort zone. Anything that challenges is simply discarded........

Can one present enough scenarios, where the tooth fairy exists also? Science says the tooth fairy does not exist. But I am sure it will be proven to be false, someday. After all, I believe the tooth fairy does exist..........

I thought I had my hands full debating with Urstruly, how word of mouth hadith could not have passed accruately, over 200 years. He says it can be done, without explaining how. I suppose there is a tiny outside chance that it could. Though highly unlikely. Some small statistical probability. However it is more difficult to get you to admit that science does not allow matter and energy to be created from nothing. Science says there is not even a tiny probability of this happening. Yet you are convinced that it can be done...........Yet keeping it a secret from me, how you know..........

romair,

........ i see you are still stuck on that energy thing ..... let me repeat what i said :`` i will not dignify your clueless query about ``broken laws`` with an answer except for two words: newton and einstein ``

...... and you might want to read anil`s follow-up with heisenberg .......

..... it is futile arguing with a fauji who knows everything ......... if you try hard enough you can come up with a scenario where given a different set of conditions, the definition of ``nothing`` might be different ........... are you sure that we know everything about particle physics ?.......... if so, then you can tell all those folks to stop wasting their time and money playing around at cern, fermi and stanford ...............

Anil #217: ``The way human knowledge has evolved in the last 200 years, compared to the last 4,000 years is massive, and it is only going to increase, unless something catastrophic happens that push back human civilization back by thousands of years.``

Yes this is true. And all the laws you quoted and all the research that is being done, is furthur solidifying the fact that matter and energy cannot be created out of nothing........

There are many experiments that take place in the world, which do (or did) not take all the parameters into consideration. At the same time, one has to prove they are wrong, before overturning them. That is what science demands. One cannot assume they are wrong.

I have asked all of you to spefically point out any research that is even hinting towards the direction that matter and energy can be created out of nothing. You have answered all the questions, except the one I have asked. The only answer to that question, you have presented, is that science is wrong. And will itself fix this problem. How you know this to be true, you cannot explain. But you just know........

It`s like someone saying, while I cannot answer who created God or when I will find Him. I will one day find Him. And if science of today says I cannot, well then the science must be wrong. When asked, can you point me to any scientific theories which are hinting that you will find God. They say no, but certain scientific laws were altered, hence any law that states I cannot find God, will be overtuned also!!

This is called ideology. Being set on one result and declaring any research to be false, if it points away from that result...............One cannot play both sides of the game. One cannot push science when it suits one`s purposes. And then disregard it when it doesn`t..........

Using this logic, one day we will discover Santa Claus and his reindeers as well. Let`s keep hoping!! If science today says, Santa Claus cannot fly. Don`t worry. The science is wrong. It will, no doubt, get overturned one day...........Why? Well because we know Santa Claus exists and can fly............

I think yourself, DM and Hamidm mian are ideologically stuck in a comfort zone. And are completely unwilling to even consider anything, even if it is proven through science, that challenges your comfort zones. Much like people who follow religion are stuck in a comfort zone. Give them any science, and they will simply say, the science is wrong and will be overturned someday. How? They don`t know. It just will..........Much like what the three of you are arguing........

Are you willing to even consider the possibility that the science maybe correct and your comfort zones are false. That the fact that matter and energy cannot be created out of nothing, will not be overturned............That perhaps your ideology that science cannot have a paradox is incorrect............

Anil/hamidm/DM #: I am quite amazed by your comments. I thinkyou are following ideologies and not science. You have come up with conclusions that you want to be correct, and are trying to find the science that will support your conclusions. When you cannot find the science, or if the science points in exactly the opposite direction of your conclusions, then you completely discard the science. And simply state that one fine day it will be overturned.........

That is not how one should pursue science. Science should be pursued with an open mind. One should let it lead and follow along and accept the coclusions it generates. Not first define the results, and only accept the science that points to those results........

I have presented specific proven scientific theories on the creation of matter and energy. Not a single one of you has presented a single fact that can deny these theories and the paradoxes they create. Not one. DM is usually quite fast on Google and finds something, when he is commenting about things he doesn`t understand. Even he hasn`t found anything.....

Hamidm mian has said, he has no idea about anything that will show how matter and energy can be created out of nothing. He has even gone on to admit that he even has no clue about the field he is discussing. He admits that science, itself, states that matter and energy cannot appear from thin air, i.e. this is no longer an unknown. It is a proven scientific known. Yet he still states that, No, someday his views will be proven correct. Some day, the same science will, itself, state that it was wrong. How, why, when and where, he has no idea. It will just happen. Because it must to suit his view that science can solve anything everything!

Anil has compared me to those who burned scientists on the stake! Why? Simply because I am stating a proven scientific fact, i.e. energy and matter cannot be created from nothing. And I am highlighting the paradox it creates. I am arguing science. However, this paradox creates a dent in his belief system. A dent that he has not presented any argument to fill. He is not going to allow proven scientific laws to change his belief system. The belief system must remain correct, regardless of what science states........

Not one single person has presented any info on the incorrectness of the scientific fact, I presented. They have pointed to some other experiments that were carried out without considering all the parameters. And have extrapolated that, due to this, all experiments (specifically those that do not suit their views of the world) will someday be overturned also..........

If one uses this line of reasoning, then I state that one day science will prove that the earth is made of jello and cheese. The current proof and experimentation that it is not made of jello and cheese is wrong........I believe it is made of jello and cheese, and it will be proven someday.....

Truly amazing!!

There are no four or three or five groups. There are only two groups--one those who believe and others who do not believe.

The believers(atlest in this forum) are also well aware of modern scientific theories look at the world as a whole. They also do not negate the existence of God. They try to analyse the world objectively and whereever they find the gaps they try to fill those voids with the hypothesis of God. They find that when God is filled in those voids ,the things become clear to them and that generates their faith in God.

The non-believers do not think objectively like above--they have a particular mindset. They do not have any reason why they disprove the existence of God. They only point to the wrongdoings in the name of God /religion etc. done by the believers to which they dont agree.

The thinking of belivers is absolute whereas the thinking of non-believers is relative.