Religion In A Clubby Hole
Parthasarathy B November 21, 2005
#272 Posted by parthaab on November 28, 2005 8:40:48 am
The Jesus figure of the Gospels is clearly a constructed character, not a real person. He spends his time telling us things, not living his life. He isn`t even shown working for a living. Whoever penned the gospels started off with the question, `Now what should our hero protagonist look like, to say the wise things we want to put in his mouth?`, and then they painted the required characteristics into their fable-hero.
Ask any religious person to prove there is a real live-and-kicking god out there. They won`t be able to. Yet they think it is rational to pursue religion. It isn`t. It`s time religion got abolished.
How this religion nonsense ever got a foothold in the world is baffling: probably it did so because the deceivers were cunning and the rest couldn`t read.
Religion is a load of mumbo-jumbo invented to deceive people, and it has no place in the modern world, where people can think for themselves and should be asking for proof of what is claimed.
Ask any religious person to prove there is a real live-and-kicking god out there. They won`t be able to. Yet they think it is rational to pursue religion. It isn`t. It`s time religion got abolished.
How this religion nonsense ever got a foothold in the world is baffling: probably it did so because the deceivers were cunning and the rest couldn`t read.
Religion is a load of mumbo-jumbo invented to deceive people, and it has no place in the modern world, where people can think for themselves and should be asking for proof of what is claimed.
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#271 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on November 28, 2005 8:13:59 am
kalihawa {``Buddha was an explorer, the only one with scientific temperament. Most of his early life was spent on quest for meaning of life. Others like Mohammed and Christ appear to be possessed men.``}
Black wind,
So what does that make you? Some dark wind passed by the Dalai Lama?
Black wind,
So what does that make you? Some dark wind passed by the Dalai Lama?
#270 Posted by parthaab on November 28, 2005 6:31:42 am
Oriya boy turns Lord Shiva’s wife
After D K Panda, the Uttar Pradesh senior IPS officer who triggered a hue and cry by calling himself ‘Doosri Radha’, a teenager from Orissa’s Balasore district has become the talk of the town for claiming himself to be Goddess Parvati and ‘marrying’ Lord Shiva.
According to local newspapers, Bhawani Das, the son of hotelier Ashok Das, solemnised his marriage to Lord Shiva last Thursday with the full support and approval of his family.
According to reports, for the past one and a half years, Maa Bhagawati, another incarnation of Goddess Parvati, was entering Bhawani’s body at regular intervals and he had reportedly acquired a divine power to cure people of their ailments and predict their future.
A month ago, under the influence of the goddess, the boy expressed his desire to marry Lord Shiva who, according to him, was residing at the house of Gadhadhar Nayak — a retired officer of a nationalised bank, at Arad Bazar area of the town.
Bhawani’s family and Mr Nayak arranged the boy’s marriage with Lord Shiva last Thursday. The marriage was solemnised as per Hindu rites and tradition. Bhawani — dressed like a bride wearing a red saree, bangles, bindi et al — waited at his father’s place while an idol of Lord Shiva was brought in a baarat from Mr Nayak’s house. The procession was as colourful as any other Hindu marriage with music band and fireworks accompanying it. About hundred people took part as baaratis and a majority of them were women.
After D K Panda, the Uttar Pradesh senior IPS officer who triggered a hue and cry by calling himself ‘Doosri Radha’, a teenager from Orissa’s Balasore district has become the talk of the town for claiming himself to be Goddess Parvati and ‘marrying’ Lord Shiva.
According to local newspapers, Bhawani Das, the son of hotelier Ashok Das, solemnised his marriage to Lord Shiva last Thursday with the full support and approval of his family.
According to reports, for the past one and a half years, Maa Bhagawati, another incarnation of Goddess Parvati, was entering Bhawani’s body at regular intervals and he had reportedly acquired a divine power to cure people of their ailments and predict their future.
A month ago, under the influence of the goddess, the boy expressed his desire to marry Lord Shiva who, according to him, was residing at the house of Gadhadhar Nayak — a retired officer of a nationalised bank, at Arad Bazar area of the town.
Bhawani’s family and Mr Nayak arranged the boy’s marriage with Lord Shiva last Thursday. The marriage was solemnised as per Hindu rites and tradition. Bhawani — dressed like a bride wearing a red saree, bangles, bindi et al — waited at his father’s place while an idol of Lord Shiva was brought in a baarat from Mr Nayak’s house. The procession was as colourful as any other Hindu marriage with music band and fireworks accompanying it. About hundred people took part as baaratis and a majority of them were women.
#264 Posted by bolta_aaina on November 28, 2005 12:07:41 am
There is considerable debate about ``creation out of nothing`` in the forum.
Well, there cannot be anything as ``nothing`` in the universe. Even the empty space cannot be termed as ``nothing`` because science ,along with matter and energy, considers space also a part of universe. Scientifically speaking, the Universe consists of matter, energy and space. So far .it has been known that matter converts into energy and energy dissipates in the space. What happens to the energy after dissipating in space is not known--whether it gets converted back into matter or gets converted into energy or space or whatever. So far the reverse process is also not known. I dont think so far energy could be converted into matter(please correct me if I am wrong) then what to talk about space into energy and energy into matter.
So when ``nothing`` itself doesnt exist, there cannot be any question of any creation out of it. Well, if you mean ``nothing`` as empty space devoid of any matter or energy, then it may be too early to say-because so far we dont know whether space can be converted into matter or energy.But possibility cannot be ruled out.
Well, there cannot be anything as ``nothing`` in the universe. Even the empty space cannot be termed as ``nothing`` because science ,along with matter and energy, considers space also a part of universe. Scientifically speaking, the Universe consists of matter, energy and space. So far .it has been known that matter converts into energy and energy dissipates in the space. What happens to the energy after dissipating in space is not known--whether it gets converted back into matter or gets converted into energy or space or whatever. So far the reverse process is also not known. I dont think so far energy could be converted into matter(please correct me if I am wrong) then what to talk about space into energy and energy into matter.
So when ``nothing`` itself doesnt exist, there cannot be any question of any creation out of it. Well, if you mean ``nothing`` as empty space devoid of any matter or energy, then it may be too early to say-because so far we dont know whether space can be converted into matter or energy.But possibility cannot be ruled out.
#259 Posted by Raw_Dust on November 27, 2005 3:22:06 pm
Romair wrote:
``No, I am not sure there is a God. ``
you do understand that by saying this in any shape or form is an unforgivable sin? by this utterance, your sojourn in the nether depths of Hell is pretty much confimed - in any case, lemme say welcome to the club. :-)
UrsTruly:
you repeated your first-cause-that-was-uncaused mantra over again. i asked you something else. all i know is that origin of the universe is an open question and your final-terminal-point assumption is a self-serving assumption.
peace.
``No, I am not sure there is a God. ``
you do understand that by saying this in any shape or form is an unforgivable sin? by this utterance, your sojourn in the nether depths of Hell is pretty much confimed - in any case, lemme say welcome to the club. :-)
UrsTruly:
you repeated your first-cause-that-was-uncaused mantra over again. i asked you something else. all i know is that origin of the universe is an open question and your final-terminal-point assumption is a self-serving assumption.
peace.
#258 Posted by KaalChakra on November 27, 2005 12:01:52 pm
It may be too optimistic, but this may help - a last attempt :)
Romair, it seems that you are equating religion with science, and vice-versa, based primarily on your belief that both science and religion require their `believers` to make a ``leap of faith.``
But the word `faith` has always been used to describe very different things that really have nothing in common.
The `faith` of a scientist is quite different in its origin, its nature, its institutional support structure, and its practical consequences than the `faith` that of a typical religionist `believer.`
We may be all wrong, but if you tried to see why the two `faiths` are not of the same species, you will get a good idea of what people are trying to say.
Romair, it seems that you are equating religion with science, and vice-versa, based primarily on your belief that both science and religion require their `believers` to make a ``leap of faith.``
But the word `faith` has always been used to describe very different things that really have nothing in common.
The `faith` of a scientist is quite different in its origin, its nature, its institutional support structure, and its practical consequences than the `faith` that of a typical religionist `believer.`
We may be all wrong, but if you tried to see why the two `faiths` are not of the same species, you will get a good idea of what people are trying to say.
#256 Posted by parthaab on November 27, 2005 1:32:57 am
Religion and science :
Religion = Science of the mind.
Religion = Science of the mind.
#253 Posted by anil on November 26, 2005 2:02:24 pm
Romair (varous):
BTW, there are several schools of thoughts in physics that I can point which are involved in the research of origin of Universe.
The mathematics can explain the origin as the singularity where everything is zero and nothing is known about before the origin. Physics does accept it. There is no history or information before the origin. The present day mathematics is based on the fact that no previous information can escape from the origin or this singularity. Theoretical Physicists continue to challenge the singularity and attempt to go around it.
Matter - Anti Matter: This school of thought believes that matter and anti-matter which annhilate each other came out of this singularity. At the singularity there was nothing or nothing about the information is needed to explain the Universe, other than that a big bang created matter and anti-matter particles some annhilated each other and some separated. These particles were produced in equal numbers, but the symmetry was disturbed by the violence of the big bang, and some matter particle coalsced and became the foundation of our Universe. Likewise, anti-matter universe must exist elsewhere.
Stephen Hawkins:
He has proposed time to be a vector, which has a real number axis and imaginary number axis. Our universe, according to this theory, lives on the real number axis, while the imaginary number (time) is through which the pre-singularity information came.
Continuing on his research, he recently proposed that black hole is really not that black, as he had said earlier where no information escaped. He now proposed that indeed some information does escape from such singularity. This according to him may allow the origin of universe to get information from prior to the singularity. While at singularity the time will be zero only in the real number axis, and will have some value in the imaginary number axis to bring information from prior to ``singularity``. I have read all of Stephen Hawkins books, and watched documentaries. You might find these readings may get to closer to science`s explanations, but not create a belief system, that theology forces to accept.
Brian Greene etc.:
Brian Greene from Columbia University has written at least two books, on String and Super String theory. One, I believe, is called Elegant Universe. I have read this book. He proposes, that there are vibrating and spinning strings of energy. Their vibration, spin and collection based on Quantum Mechanics wave theory form basic particles neede for the matter. Thus at the most elementary level there is only energy, and not matter. There is a young scientist, at Princeton, who is regarded as the modern day Einstein, his name is slipping my memory, is doing a lot of research in area. What I read that present day mathematics is inadequate to prove or disprove String and Super String Theories. New mathematical tools need to be evolved.
Multiple Diemensions:
We live in four demensional universe. According to this theory there are more dimensions (11, I believe). At the singularity (origin) information, as they call it, escaped through other dimensions, some of these dimensions are very small to be observed. This theory, as I understand, tries to explain gravity is escaped information from these extra dimensions.
Brian Greene in one his books, tries to explain it, by giving an example of an ant crawling on a wire and is able to observe the curve, and hence three dimensions, while a human standing on the distance could only see it as a line, and thus single dimension.
I have more faith in science than theology to find right answer. If you call it as my comfort zone, that suits me too. I call it as my thought space. In my thought space, there is no room to accept caste system, religious rituals etc., or the finality of 1,400 year old message or messenger. Or winged angels, a superior human being talking to a human messenger as the link between God and humans, which defines a questionable and unproven heirarchy that must not be questioned. My thought space does allow me to respect these view points, and be friends with them as long as they do not imposed upon me, just as I do not impose my thought space on others.
Anil
BTW, there are several schools of thoughts in physics that I can point which are involved in the research of origin of Universe.
The mathematics can explain the origin as the singularity where everything is zero and nothing is known about before the origin. Physics does accept it. There is no history or information before the origin. The present day mathematics is based on the fact that no previous information can escape from the origin or this singularity. Theoretical Physicists continue to challenge the singularity and attempt to go around it.
Matter - Anti Matter: This school of thought believes that matter and anti-matter which annhilate each other came out of this singularity. At the singularity there was nothing or nothing about the information is needed to explain the Universe, other than that a big bang created matter and anti-matter particles some annhilated each other and some separated. These particles were produced in equal numbers, but the symmetry was disturbed by the violence of the big bang, and some matter particle coalsced and became the foundation of our Universe. Likewise, anti-matter universe must exist elsewhere.
Stephen Hawkins:
He has proposed time to be a vector, which has a real number axis and imaginary number axis. Our universe, according to this theory, lives on the real number axis, while the imaginary number (time) is through which the pre-singularity information came.
Continuing on his research, he recently proposed that black hole is really not that black, as he had said earlier where no information escaped. He now proposed that indeed some information does escape from such singularity. This according to him may allow the origin of universe to get information from prior to the singularity. While at singularity the time will be zero only in the real number axis, and will have some value in the imaginary number axis to bring information from prior to ``singularity``. I have read all of Stephen Hawkins books, and watched documentaries. You might find these readings may get to closer to science`s explanations, but not create a belief system, that theology forces to accept.
Brian Greene etc.:
Brian Greene from Columbia University has written at least two books, on String and Super String theory. One, I believe, is called Elegant Universe. I have read this book. He proposes, that there are vibrating and spinning strings of energy. Their vibration, spin and collection based on Quantum Mechanics wave theory form basic particles neede for the matter. Thus at the most elementary level there is only energy, and not matter. There is a young scientist, at Princeton, who is regarded as the modern day Einstein, his name is slipping my memory, is doing a lot of research in area. What I read that present day mathematics is inadequate to prove or disprove String and Super String Theories. New mathematical tools need to be evolved.
Multiple Diemensions:
We live in four demensional universe. According to this theory there are more dimensions (11, I believe). At the singularity (origin) information, as they call it, escaped through other dimensions, some of these dimensions are very small to be observed. This theory, as I understand, tries to explain gravity is escaped information from these extra dimensions.
Brian Greene in one his books, tries to explain it, by giving an example of an ant crawling on a wire and is able to observe the curve, and hence three dimensions, while a human standing on the distance could only see it as a line, and thus single dimension.
I have more faith in science than theology to find right answer. If you call it as my comfort zone, that suits me too. I call it as my thought space. In my thought space, there is no room to accept caste system, religious rituals etc., or the finality of 1,400 year old message or messenger. Or winged angels, a superior human being talking to a human messenger as the link between God and humans, which defines a questionable and unproven heirarchy that must not be questioned. My thought space does allow me to respect these view points, and be friends with them as long as they do not imposed upon me, just as I do not impose my thought space on others.
Anil
#255 Posted by parthaab on November 27, 2005 1:27:31 am
Re: # 253
I do not understand the attempts to satisfy religious beliefs with science. After all, religion was never `invented` on scientific quest. While science is just the name given to the quest for knowledge that existed throughout mankind.
What relation exists between religion and science, when religion itself is a superstition, and has more to do with the `science of the mind`?
I do not understand the attempts to satisfy religious beliefs with science. After all, religion was never `invented` on scientific quest. While science is just the name given to the quest for knowledge that existed throughout mankind.
What relation exists between religion and science, when religion itself is a superstition, and has more to do with the `science of the mind`?
#263 Posted by bolta_aaina on November 27, 2005 10:43:27 pm
Re: # 255
``I do not understand the attempts to satisfy religious beliefs with science.``
Science ultimately will get dissolved in the religion. Whatever science will not be able to explain will be explained by the religion.
``I do not understand the attempts to satisfy religious beliefs with science.``
Science ultimately will get dissolved in the religion. Whatever science will not be able to explain will be explained by the religion.
#268 Posted by Netizen on November 28, 2005 5:18:23 am
Re: # 263
talkative-mirror:
``Whatever science will not be able to explain will be explained by the religion. ``
Here’s a question that scientific research has so far not been able to answer:
Drugs crystallize in different polymorphic forms. It is very difficult to determine whether any particular drug form would change its polymorphic form during storage. If it does, it may change its physical properties and hence bio-availability. Academics and industry have spent a lot of resources trying to understand why drugs change form with-out any rhyme or reason. So far there is no answer.
Can you point me to some religious texts/religion which can answer this puzzle?
talkative-mirror:
``Whatever science will not be able to explain will be explained by the religion. ``
Here’s a question that scientific research has so far not been able to answer:
Drugs crystallize in different polymorphic forms. It is very difficult to determine whether any particular drug form would change its polymorphic form during storage. If it does, it may change its physical properties and hence bio-availability. Academics and industry have spent a lot of resources trying to understand why drugs change form with-out any rhyme or reason. So far there is no answer.
Can you point me to some religious texts/religion which can answer this puzzle?
#276 Posted by bolta_aaina on November 28, 2005 9:05:52 pm
Re: # 268
But why should religion answer this question?? Is Drug-making a part of any religion?? Its a pure science and it is to be answered by further observation and experimentation. I dont think religion has any role to play in it. But if science completely fails to answer this question, then religous angle will definitely come-in. It would not be proper to answer it now, I feel.
But why should religion answer this question?? Is Drug-making a part of any religion?? Its a pure science and it is to be answered by further observation and experimentation. I dont think religion has any role to play in it. But if science completely fails to answer this question, then religous angle will definitely come-in. It would not be proper to answer it now, I feel.
#265 Posted by malikjahanzeb on November 28, 2005 12:09:34 am
Re: # 263 bolta:
>>>Science ultimately will get dissolved in the religion. Whatever science will not be able to explain will be explained by the religion.
What an unflinching idealism yaar....
>>>Science ultimately will get dissolved in the religion. Whatever science will not be able to explain will be explained by the religion.
What an unflinching idealism yaar....
#266 Posted by bolta_aaina on November 28, 2005 1:19:35 am
Re: # 265
Its a bitter truth. The race will be won by religion and not science.
Science is now reaching a plateau. It is stagnating. It does not have a long life. yes Technology will progress. In the coming years, you will see more and more cheaper materials, cheaper gadgets, miniaturised components etc. But the basic science i.e. objective exploration of the nature will not move much further from now.
The recent survey has shown that more than 75% of the people of the world believe in God. The highest percentage is Philipines(91%) and then India(87%). Pakistan score was 78%(oops.. and we Indians thought Pakistan is a religous fundamentalist country). Now when science at its peak could not convince the world about non-existence of God, it is unlikely to do so in future.
So bolo God is Great.Allah-o-Akbar.Ishwar-Allah Tere Naam.
Its a bitter truth. The race will be won by religion and not science.
Science is now reaching a plateau. It is stagnating. It does not have a long life. yes Technology will progress. In the coming years, you will see more and more cheaper materials, cheaper gadgets, miniaturised components etc. But the basic science i.e. objective exploration of the nature will not move much further from now.
The recent survey has shown that more than 75% of the people of the world believe in God. The highest percentage is Philipines(91%) and then India(87%). Pakistan score was 78%(oops.. and we Indians thought Pakistan is a religous fundamentalist country). Now when science at its peak could not convince the world about non-existence of God, it is unlikely to do so in future.
So bolo God is Great.Allah-o-Akbar.Ishwar-Allah Tere Naam.
#269 Posted by parthaab on November 28, 2005 5:36:09 am
Re: # 266Gods and Goddesses
``Ishwar-Allah Tere Naam``
Which one do YOU believe in? Here is a list of the different Gods that Indians of yore believed and worshipped : P.S. Not started on the Persian or South American gods yet.
Below is a listing of the main gods and their websites.
Ambaa-L - An email-group devoted to the Divine Mother, offering hymns & texts singing Her glory.
Lord Ayyappa Sarana Ghosha - A website in Andrapradesh displaying Lord Ayyappa`s 108 names transliterated from the Telugu language.
Goddess Durga, India - This site from Dhanbad, India is dedicated to worship of Goddess Durga & portrays the festival of Durga Puja as it is celebrated in the autumn with different festivities & rituals all over India, but especially in Dhanbad.
Worship of Lord Ganesha - Ganesha`s 108 names; the importance of Ganesha Chaturthi; 55 famous Ganesha Temples in India, compliments of Shivaji Park, an online community in Mumbai.
God in Hindu Dharma and Temples, featuring many of the primary Hindu Gods.
The Eight Kuladevathas of Kerala - H.H. Sudheendra Thirtha Swamiji once told the Kerala community that their welfare would be adversely effected if they failed to continually worship their Kuladevathas or family Deities; he identified 8 important Kuladevathas for them to choose from & build temples to: Sri MahaGanapathi, Sri Lakshmi Narasimha Mahamaya, Sri Damodar, Sri Nagesh, Sri Ramanath Shantheri Kamakshi, Sri Mahalasa Narayani, Sri Mahalakshmi & Sri Devaki Krishna Ravalnath.
``Loving Ganesha, Hinduism`s Endearing Elephant-faced God`` - Himalayan Academy Publications continues its tradition of providing in-depth internet resources with the on-line release of the entire text of this very popular book by Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami.
``Merging With Siva`` - Himalayan Academy Publications offers another on-line release of the entire text of this profound book on God Siva and all about God Realization by Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami.
Lord Muruga - A must-see website for Tamils, Saivites and Muruga Bhaktars. Shakti Vel Muruga!
Lord Muruga - A comprehensive & informative website for Truth Seekers on the South Indian Deity, Bhagavan Sri Skanda, Son of Siva, also known as Lord Muruga & Lord Subramaniam.
Lord Muruga - An exceptionally good website in Tamil & English about worship of Lord Muruga in his Arupadai Veedu.
Sri Sita Rama & the Ramayana - A site dedicated to the glorification of The Ramayana and Lord Rama.
``Ishwar-Allah Tere Naam``
Which one do YOU believe in? Here is a list of the different Gods that Indians of yore believed and worshipped : P.S. Not started on the Persian or South American gods yet.
Below is a listing of the main gods and their websites.
Ambaa-L - An email-group devoted to the Divine Mother, offering hymns & texts singing Her glory.
Lord Ayyappa Sarana Ghosha - A website in Andrapradesh displaying Lord Ayyappa`s 108 names transliterated from the Telugu language.
Goddess Durga, India - This site from Dhanbad, India is dedicated to worship of Goddess Durga & portrays the festival of Durga Puja as it is celebrated in the autumn with different festivities & rituals all over India, but especially in Dhanbad.
Worship of Lord Ganesha - Ganesha`s 108 names; the importance of Ganesha Chaturthi; 55 famous Ganesha Temples in India, compliments of Shivaji Park, an online community in Mumbai.
God in Hindu Dharma and Temples, featuring many of the primary Hindu Gods.
The Eight Kuladevathas of Kerala - H.H. Sudheendra Thirtha Swamiji once told the Kerala community that their welfare would be adversely effected if they failed to continually worship their Kuladevathas or family Deities; he identified 8 important Kuladevathas for them to choose from & build temples to: Sri MahaGanapathi, Sri Lakshmi Narasimha Mahamaya, Sri Damodar, Sri Nagesh, Sri Ramanath Shantheri Kamakshi, Sri Mahalasa Narayani, Sri Mahalakshmi & Sri Devaki Krishna Ravalnath.
``Loving Ganesha, Hinduism`s Endearing Elephant-faced God`` - Himalayan Academy Publications continues its tradition of providing in-depth internet resources with the on-line release of the entire text of this very popular book by Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami.
``Merging With Siva`` - Himalayan Academy Publications offers another on-line release of the entire text of this profound book on God Siva and all about God Realization by Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami.
Lord Muruga - A must-see website for Tamils, Saivites and Muruga Bhaktars. Shakti Vel Muruga!
Lord Muruga - A comprehensive & informative website for Truth Seekers on the South Indian Deity, Bhagavan Sri Skanda, Son of Siva, also known as Lord Muruga & Lord Subramaniam.
Lord Muruga - An exceptionally good website in Tamil & English about worship of Lord Muruga in his Arupadai Veedu.
Sri Sita Rama & the Ramayana - A site dedicated to the glorification of The Ramayana and Lord Rama.
#279 Posted by bolta_aaina on November 28, 2005 11:53:25 pm
Re: # 269
When you have listed so many Hindu Gods & Godesses, it would be prudent to find out their meanings also.
I would only say that they are not God. They are Devis & Devtas and not Bhagwan/ Ishwar/Parmatma.
When you have listed so many Hindu Gods & Godesses, it would be prudent to find out their meanings also.
I would only say that they are not God. They are Devis & Devtas and not Bhagwan/ Ishwar/Parmatma.
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