Religion In A Clubby Hole

Re: # 239

Caste system is prevalent in only One religion i.e. Hinduism. It is not there in Islam, Christianity, Budhism and Sikhism.

Even Hindusim has now accepted it to be a scourage and efforts are being made to eradicate caste-system altogether.

The prejudice against atheism is a fact. People are accustomed to consider atheism wicked. Bible and Quran rail at ``unbelievers``.

``The American Atheist`` recounts the disabilities imposed upon the atheists in U.S.A. It tells that ``Atheists cannot adopt. Atheist cannot have blank dog tags in the army. Atheists cannot join the Masons Scouts or V.F.W. without first lying by taking an oath of belief in god. Atheists are now excluded from government employment, unless they lie. Atheists have difficulty with passports. Atheists cannot even purchase time on most T.V. and radio stations.``

phir ham apni bajatay hein.

dhoom dhoom tananana, tana na na ray.........

Re: # 237

yes.Why not.........

Kal kya hoga kisko pata,
Abhi zindagai ka lelo mazaa.........

Would somebody explain to me what is the point we are trying to make here ?

Re: # 233

God created Man or Man created God??

Re: # 234 yeah but these older folks are getting into some obscure discussions in which one is trying to disprove what other doesn`t want to talk about.

Re: # 235

Apni apni daphli aur apna apna raag(One`s own drum and one`s own drumbeat)

hamidm mian #231: ``newton and einstein.....heisenberg .......``

Do explain to me how Einstein and Hiesenberg discard what I am saying. Don`t they simply prove it even more........It is, infact, Einstein`s e = mc2, which shows that while energy and matter can switch from one to the other, if one is 0, the other will be 0..........

`` if you try hard enough you can come up with a scenario where given a different set of conditions, the definition of ``nothing`` might be different ...........``

Do point me to these scenarios. This what I am asking you to do. If you are so sure that the scientific theorires around energy and matter are wrong, then educate me. Seriously speaking. I am more than happy to change my mind. Unlike yourself, I don`t have ideological beliefs. I try to follow science........

One cannot pick and chose science, i.e. accept it when it suits our ideologies. And simply state that it is false and will be proven false, if it does not suit our ideologies. As I keep saying, you are stuck in an ideological comfort zone. Anything that challenges is simply discarded........

Can one present enough scenarios, where the tooth fairy exists also? Science says the tooth fairy does not exist. But I am sure it will be proven to be false, someday. After all, I believe the tooth fairy does exist..........

I thought I had my hands full debating with Urstruly, how word of mouth hadith could not have passed accruately, over 200 years. He says it can be done, without explaining how. I suppose there is a tiny outside chance that it could. Though highly unlikely. Some small statistical probability. However it is more difficult to get you to admit that science does not allow matter and energy to be created from nothing. Science says there is not even a tiny probability of this happening. Yet you are convinced that it can be done...........Yet keeping it a secret from me, how you know..........

Re: # 232


romair mian,

unknowingly you have proven einstein`s formula e=mc2 : a very very small amout of grey matter (mass) can be converted into a very very large amount of nonsense (energy) !!!!!

.... .... if you remember you had asked me to give you an example of how/when scientific ``laws`` were proven wrong - i gave you one (one that most children are familiar with) and now you want to go back to your ``0=0 interpretation`` of poor einstein`s theory ...... the way i understand it is that all he said was that energy (including radiation and light) has the properties of mass and one form of energy can be transformed into another .......... but i don`t think science has discovered all forms of energy yet and there is no definition of ``nothing`` ...... and yes, i am perfectly willing to believe that one day someone will be able to prove that under certain conditions einstein`s theory might not hold up (just like newton`s) ......... what happens if a particle is accelerated to a million times the speed of light ? .......will it disappear or become a form of energy that we cannot see, feel or measure .?......... . i am willing to bet that it becomes god !

........ now i have exhausted my knowledge of particle physics and have nothing more to add except point out, once again, that my beef is with the character of god not with his existence .......

Re: # 241

hamidm:

``unknowingly you have proven einstein`s formula e=mc2 : a very very small amout of grey matter (mass) can be converted into a very very large amount of nonsense (energy) !!!!! ``

LOL...


Is raja pakistani aka romair a representative of paki education/military or just an aberration???

romair,

........ i see you are still stuck on that energy thing ..... let me repeat what i said :`` i will not dignify your clueless query about ``broken laws`` with an answer except for two words: newton and einstein ``

...... and you might want to read anil`s follow-up with heisenberg .......

..... it is futile arguing with a fauji who knows everything ......... if you try hard enough you can come up with a scenario where given a different set of conditions, the definition of ``nothing`` might be different ........... are you sure that we know everything about particle physics ?.......... if so, then you can tell all those folks to stop wasting their time and money playing around at cern, fermi and stanford ...............

Anil #217: ``The way human knowledge has evolved in the last 200 years, compared to the last 4,000 years is massive, and it is only going to increase, unless something catastrophic happens that push back human civilization back by thousands of years.``

Yes this is true. And all the laws you quoted and all the research that is being done, is furthur solidifying the fact that matter and energy cannot be created out of nothing........

There are many experiments that take place in the world, which do (or did) not take all the parameters into consideration. At the same time, one has to prove they are wrong, before overturning them. That is what science demands. One cannot assume they are wrong.

I have asked all of you to spefically point out any research that is even hinting towards the direction that matter and energy can be created out of nothing. You have answered all the questions, except the one I have asked. The only answer to that question, you have presented, is that science is wrong. And will itself fix this problem. How you know this to be true, you cannot explain. But you just know........

It`s like someone saying, while I cannot answer who created God or when I will find Him. I will one day find Him. And if science of today says I cannot, well then the science must be wrong. When asked, can you point me to any scientific theories which are hinting that you will find God. They say no, but certain scientific laws were altered, hence any law that states I cannot find God, will be overtuned also!!

This is called ideology. Being set on one result and declaring any research to be false, if it points away from that result...............One cannot play both sides of the game. One cannot push science when it suits one`s purposes. And then disregard it when it doesn`t..........

Using this logic, one day we will discover Santa Claus and his reindeers as well. Let`s keep hoping!! If science today says, Santa Claus cannot fly. Don`t worry. The science is wrong. It will, no doubt, get overturned one day...........Why? Well because we know Santa Claus exists and can fly............

I think yourself, DM and Hamidm mian are ideologically stuck in a comfort zone. And are completely unwilling to even consider anything, even if it is proven through science, that challenges your comfort zones. Much like people who follow religion are stuck in a comfort zone. Give them any science, and they will simply say, the science is wrong and will be overturned someday. How? They don`t know. It just will..........Much like what the three of you are arguing........

Are you willing to even consider the possibility that the science maybe correct and your comfort zones are false. That the fact that matter and energy cannot be created out of nothing, will not be overturned............That perhaps your ideology that science cannot have a paradox is incorrect............

Anil/hamidm/DM #: I am quite amazed by your comments. I thinkyou are following ideologies and not science. You have come up with conclusions that you want to be correct, and are trying to find the science that will support your conclusions. When you cannot find the science, or if the science points in exactly the opposite direction of your conclusions, then you completely discard the science. And simply state that one fine day it will be overturned.........

That is not how one should pursue science. Science should be pursued with an open mind. One should let it lead and follow along and accept the coclusions it generates. Not first define the results, and only accept the science that points to those results........

I have presented specific proven scientific theories on the creation of matter and energy. Not a single one of you has presented a single fact that can deny these theories and the paradoxes they create. Not one. DM is usually quite fast on Google and finds something, when he is commenting about things he doesn`t understand. Even he hasn`t found anything.....

Hamidm mian has said, he has no idea about anything that will show how matter and energy can be created out of nothing. He has even gone on to admit that he even has no clue about the field he is discussing. He admits that science, itself, states that matter and energy cannot appear from thin air, i.e. this is no longer an unknown. It is a proven scientific known. Yet he still states that, No, someday his views will be proven correct. Some day, the same science will, itself, state that it was wrong. How, why, when and where, he has no idea. It will just happen. Because it must to suit his view that science can solve anything everything!

Anil has compared me to those who burned scientists on the stake! Why? Simply because I am stating a proven scientific fact, i.e. energy and matter cannot be created from nothing. And I am highlighting the paradox it creates. I am arguing science. However, this paradox creates a dent in his belief system. A dent that he has not presented any argument to fill. He is not going to allow proven scientific laws to change his belief system. The belief system must remain correct, regardless of what science states........

Not one single person has presented any info on the incorrectness of the scientific fact, I presented. They have pointed to some other experiments that were carried out without considering all the parameters. And have extrapolated that, due to this, all experiments (specifically those that do not suit their views of the world) will someday be overturned also..........

If one uses this line of reasoning, then I state that one day science will prove that the earth is made of jello and cheese. The current proof and experimentation that it is not made of jello and cheese is wrong........I believe it is made of jello and cheese, and it will be proven someday.....

Truly amazing!!

There are no four or three or five groups. There are only two groups--one those who believe and others who do not believe.

The believers(atlest in this forum) are also well aware of modern scientific theories look at the world as a whole. They also do not negate the existence of God. They try to analyse the world objectively and whereever they find the gaps they try to fill those voids with the hypothesis of God. They find that when God is filled in those voids ,the things become clear to them and that generates their faith in God.

The non-believers do not think objectively like above--they have a particular mindset. They do not have any reason why they disprove the existence of God. They only point to the wrongdoings in the name of God /religion etc. done by the believers to which they dont agree.

The thinking of belivers is absolute whereas the thinking of non-believers is relative.

Dost-mittar #206: ``First of all, let me say that we are not discussing the limits of science but whether religion is anything other than a superstition and not something that provides rational answers to questions that science does not.``

As I told you, this is not what I am discussing. I was simply discussing what science has or has not proven. And trying to figure out the views of people who have ideological beliefs, and will not accept scientific proof, if it violates their ideological beliefs.

``What they will find out I obviously do not know and wont even be alive to find out if they ever did.``

If one uses this argument, then everything is up for grabs. Anyone can use this argument. Maybe they will find that Santa Claus and the Easter bunny actually exist. As does the tooth fairy. Should we assume that, this will happen........

I would like to suggest to you that you view the things that science has already proven and disproven, and formed laws around. And you accept those, even if they lead to results that go against, things that you ideologically believe in......

In fact, I find it kind of odd that you, of all people, set aside scientific beliefs when they do not suit your ideological beliefs, and state that alien beings may prove them wrong someday. While at the same time, you critique others of having ideological beliefs.

You need to make up your mind. Do you follow science or not? I follow it. And do not denounce it, if it doesn`t suit my purposes............