Religion In A Clubby Hole

Re: # 141

Interesting stiff. But its nothing new. As someone pointed out, Hitler used religion to kill. So did Milosevic. And many many others in history. And even today. OBL too, of course.

Religious fantasy thinking has been trying to clog - at times forcefully - rational thinking, for centuries. Watch the crap written by some religious nutters on not only this, but other threads throught chowk.

Religious extremism is one of the reasons why religion has to be questioned. The other being the question of rationality of course.

parthab #145 any comments on hindu religious extremism (I notice all your examples are from other religions)?

Re: # 145

i think issues on metaphysics, ontologies and realism have all been discussed at length on various topics of Gill....................we should be discussing about political Islam of OBL variety.............................which is another mutant of the good old TNT that is the hall mark of a `good` Paksitani ................

Re: # 146

When religion itself is a form of extreme subversion of thinking, where is the question of one fantasy being better than another?
When the muslim ``media`` was asleep, I wrote on chowk about Modi. Of course, all religions have their defenders and propagadists.

Re: # 147

Bashing other religions - you will find on all chowk threads. Mine is about bashing religion and god itself.

Re: # 146

When religion itself is a form of extreme subversion of thinking, where is the question of one fantasy being better than another?
When the muslim ``media`` was asleep, I wrote on chowk about Modi. Of course, all religions have their defenders and propagadists.

Re: # 147

Bashing other religions - you will find on all chowk threads. Mine is about bashing religion and god itself.

Re: # 145

One more comment on the issue of `rational` thinking................I feel proving or disproving the existence of almighty does not bridge the gulf between the ``IS and ``OUGHT`` ....................no amount of scientific proof on existence of god or his message can make us accept the ``OUGHTS`` unless the fear and deterrence of God`s infinite capacity to punish and bring pain to humans is assumed................

The issues that moderate muslims need to confront today is about political agendas that some global neo-fascists want to impose upon the muslims all over the world and turning them into some puppets in their fascistic mobilization through terror tactics.................we may find it amazing that the riots in France or elsewhere is consolidating the muslim faithfuls........no we are all wrong............ we are mobilizing the world opinion against ourselves..................to think that we would create thousands of palestine and kashmir like pockets of resistence the world over is sheer stupidity and shows the bankruptcy of our leadership......

parthab #146 i see you have avoided my simple question. this indicates what i was saying earlier is correct - while claiming to ``bash`` religion, you are, like most indian posters on chowk, quite beholden to hinduism. so far your article and your responses indicate that you find it easy to bash religion, as long as it is not your own.

as for ``bashing`` religion in general goes, i see you also ignored my earlier response to your ``religion bashing``. this is a hell of a way to have a discussion - being unable to acknowledge that you can be wrong.

and on the second day she created god ....................

( the scene opens with adam and eve in the garden of eden ..... adam, butt naked, is sitting on a rock while eve sits at his feet scratching under her arms ..... he
picks lice out of her hair and pops them into his mouth )

eve: now that`s enough, let`s have some sex

adam: not again ! we have already done it ten times today - i am a man, not a machine ..... by the way, how did you ever come up with that stuff and why are we doing it all the time .............. i know it feels good and all that, but i am feeling a little dizzy

eve (rolling her eyes and flicking her tail): no, you are not a man; you are a monkey - it will be many many eons before you loose your tail and all that icky hair before you can call yourself a man ............don`t be such a lazy bum and stop complaining ..........there is not much else you can do in this place - no shopping malls, no movies ...... sex is the only thing unless you want to swing from a tree and roll around on the grass ....... that gets old after a while, no ?

adam (examining his wee wee): but my penis is a little sore ....

eve (rolling her eyes and laughing): you call that a penis !...... it is a wee wee !

adam (looking hurt): stop laughing ..... and how would you know - it is not that there is anything else to compare it with ..... really, how do you know ?

eve (giving him a hug): addy dear, trust me, i know these things ...... but it is okay; you are doing just fine and we will go forth and mulitply regardless of the size of your rather meager endowment .....

adam: multiply?..... what do you mean multiply ? ..... i am confused ....

eve (sighing): adam you are kind of cluless like that character romair, arn`t you ?...... why do you think we are here - do you think it is just a coincidence ? .......... why do you think you have that.... that thing ............ and take off that fig leaf, it looks silly !......... darling, there is a reason for us being here .............

adam (looking puzzled ): reason? ...... jeez eve, i never thought of it this way .... i never thought about it that way .... why does there have to be a reason for anything ..... i thought we were here because `here` was the only place we could be and until there is a `there` we really can`t be `there` , can we ? ............. and besides, we have been here only a day and a half and so far it seems to be okay, so why start thinking about it ........

eve (reaching out and touching him): oh adam, you are such a dunce .....nothing happens without a reason or without somone or something making it happen ....... every thing has a cause .......... why do you think you get an erection ?

adam : blood flow?

eve : you poor fool !...... no adam, it is because you have been put here for a purpose

adam: to have sex ?

eve: exactly !

adam: but who? .... who would want me to do such a thing, and why ?..... you know eve, this doesn`t make much sense .... here we are in this nice place, with fruit trees and flowers and babbling brooks and the sun shining in the clear blue sky, and now you tell me that there is a reason for all this .......... you mean to say that somone might be watching us?......... you know, that really takes the joy out of this whole thing - it is rather disconcerting and i don`t know if i can perform under these circumstances .......

eve (looking a little worried and angry): adam, get a grip !......... stop worrying about these things .... let me do the thinking - trust me, i know ..........

adam: you know?.... what do you know ? ms smarty pants ! .......... if you are so damn smart then tell me who created us? .......... why is the sky so blue and why is the grass so green ? ...... and why, just why, am i here ?

eve (looking a little impatient): adam, just let it be ..... who cares?.... it doesn`t matter ....come here and let`s do it ?

adam : no! ...... since you started it you have to tell me ...... who put us here and why ?

eve: adam, i don`t know - i was just yanking your chain ! ... come here now and be a good boy...

adam : no!..... i must know ....

eve (looking a little exasperated and impatient): okay, if you must know, it is god ..... god is our father, he knows all and sees all and he live up in the sky in a gilded palace with his angels and he wants us to hve sex .........

adam (looking relieved and smiling): oh, why didn`t you say so in the first place


eve : now come here and give me a hug ........................

khurram #: ``Invoking a supernatural being doesn`t seem necessary in either case. The First Cause argument is very old and has been shown to be inadequate for just as long.......You can invoke God at the creation of the universe or even at the creation of life.``

You are unnecessarily bringing God into the discussion. As I stated earlier, the existence of God cannot be proved. So let`s end that side of the discussion. What I am trying to debate is the limited nature of science. The gap and paradoxes that exist in science itself. You are unwilling to discuss those. You have not provided a single counterargument, other than stating that, one fine day, some miracle will happen, and the questions, I have asked, will be answered.........

The whole basis of scientific thought is based on the fact that matter and energy cannot be created from nothing. This is, thus, not an argument. But a proven scientific fact. Every single equation in an scientific field that has matter or energy in it, proves it. E=mc2 proves it. Na + Cl = NaCL proves it.

Science has proven itself, based on its own rules that matter and energy cannot be created from nothing. If they could, then the whole field of science will disappear. Matter and Energy will become undefinable and uncalculatable variables. E will no longer be equal to mc2. It will, infact become impossible to define a value for E (or m). F will no longer be equal to ma. You will not need Na and Cl molecules to make Salt. Salt will just appear from nothing.

In fact, the whole concept of using fossil fuels etc. to produce energy will go down the drain. One will not even need nuclear energy. Because energy will just, ``appear`` from nowhere, as per your theory. You could have a vacuum, and a nuclear explosion could occur in it, even if there isn`t a single atom in there. Water will appear in the vaccum, even if there is no hydrogen or oxygen.........

This is the caveman approach to life that you are suggesting. It is called magic. If one day magic takes over and things start appearing from nothing, then the science used to prove that magic, will itself be discredited........

This is the paradox.............

Science only informs us about how things evolve from one thing to another. It assumes the existence of a set of basic core elements. However, it cannot, by its own rules, inform us on how those basic core elements came into existence..............And the more data it gets, the more the paradox is solidified. Infact, these are all laws. They are not mere theories.

There is not a single occurence in the gazzillions and trillions of chemical reactions and energy transfers that are taking place in the world on a daily basis, where matter and energy came into existence from nowhere!!

Yet you are stuck on your, ``historical event.......which will someday be explained by science`` theory. When science, itself, has already agreed to laws on which it is based, which state that such an event cannot be explained by science...........

Re: # 154

romair mian,

......what the heck are you trying to prove ? ......... are you suggesting that until science proves (or disproves) the existence of god people have to believe in something ? ......... why? ........ is it kind of like people believing that lightening was a bolt from an angry god before they figured out the concept of electrical charges ? ............what is wrong with simply stating ``we don`t know yet, but we are working on it ``............... that would be a lot better than believing in the hobgoblin theory ............ but if you have to believe in something, why not the the tooth fairy, or joe pesci as carlin has suggested ?..... and what makes you think that eve did not invent god as i have suggested ?

........the problem, dear romair, is not with the concept of god, it is with the character of god - malicious, vengeful and bent on destroying everyone who doesn`t ``believe`` in him ..................... it is a horrible idea any way you look at it ............

Dost-mittar #122: ``You are telling others that they are not debating the issue while the fact is that you are changing the debate.``

There are multiple debates going on this thread. Of which I am involved in one.

``You misinterpreted again. When I said at least not yet, it clearly implies the possibility that science may never find asnwers to the question.``

Dil ke khush rakhne ko Ghalib yeh khyal achha hae.....seems to be the approach you are following. This is the problem. You are also stuck in a fantasy land. Much like Mr. Khurram. I can tell that neither of you have indulged in any kind of academic study of science. As I mentioned to him, blissful ignorance, based on an assumption that someday magic will occur, must be quite comforting. This is probably why people in such states are so confident of their views.... I shall leave you in your state of blissful ignorance........However I will address one point you have made.......

What exactly does, ``at least`` not yet mean?

Are you seriously suggesting that one fine day, science might discover that matter and energy can be created out of nothing!! Hasn`t science, itself, established, beyond a shadow of a doubt, by its own rules, that matter and energy cannot simply, ``appear?`` Isn`t this an established rule of science, on which all scientific equations, formulae, laws, theories and hypotheses are based?

Are you waiting for this rule to be turned on its head?

If one fine day, someone uses science to discover that matter and energy can appear out of nowhere and from nothing, then all the scientific rules, on which current science is based, will disappear. The method used to prove your, ``at least not yet,`` and Khurram`s ``someday/more data`` theories will itself be discredited. The equations on which such a discovery will be based, will involve matter and energy, and will themselves be useless. Thereby discrediting the discovery itself............

The impossibility of the appearance of energy and matter from nothing is an established law of science. It cannot be undone with the same science, ``someday,`` which you are claiming adherence to. It defines the limitation of science. And of our human mind. Both of which are not infinitely powerful.

Since I am a computer, ``scientist,`` and not a scientist in the pure fields, I would be interested in any comments from pure scientists, who have studied this. Maybe I have missed something. Can energy and matter be created from a vaccuum of nothingness?

Can you point me to any scientists you have studied, which have convinced you that someday such a thing maybe proved. Kindly no last minute Google searches (as you do when I ask you questions about your miltary theories). I would like to know if you have actually studied the subject, and formulated your view............Or are you just shooting from the hip.............

khurram #: ``It is absolutely a natural phenomenon that will one day be explained by science. I know of no scientist who claims otherwise. Please point me to some evidence if you disagree.``

If you don`t know of any scientists that state that organic life cannot be produced from inorganic life, then I am afraid you have not spend too much time, studying the subject. Before I answer your question, could you let me know whether you have reached your conclusions, on your, ``someday`` theory, based on study, or just through blissful ignorance..........

I suppose an existence of blissful ignorance is very comforting..............But I would encourage you to study the phenomenons and rules of science, if you want to indulge in a debate. Your theory is like someone saying, ``Well someday, we will run into God, hence he exists.``

Mr. b - Science learns from its mistakes. Religions never admit to ever having been mistaken.

Very very profound of statements. If God make mistake, then people wonder why God called god and not dog? Are you insinuated that Sir Ishaaq Nautan is really God? Come on, this not easy to digest.

Hamidm mian #155: ``......what the heck are you trying to prove ? ......... are you suggesting that until science proves (or disproves) the existence of god people have to believe in something ? .........``

No I am not trying to prove that. As I said, that cannot be proven.........I am only trying to describe the boundaries of science, and trying to find out whether all the people who keep proclaiming all these views on how science can actually answer everything, ``someday`` have even bothered to study science, at all. The more and more I debate with them, the more I am realizing that their confidence of their own theories is based, more on blissful ignronce than anything else..........

People don`t have to believe anything. What they should be willing to do is, at least, reason, based on logic. There is, indeed, a huge gap around the creation of the building blocks of, ``things.`` It is a gap that science, according to its own rules, can never solve. Science, itslef, admits it. If it was ever solved, science itself would collapse..........

Different people will fill this gap differently. Some through God. Others will just ignore it and not think about it. That is fine, it is eveyone`s choice. I am only trying to explain that this gap has been defined by science itself.........and it is no longer a mere theory, it is a proven scieintific fact.............

I think too many people are locked into their religion and anti-religion political views, to be willing to discuss something based on logic. Those who want to push religion, automatically, put God into this gap. Those who want to push anti-religionims in their politics, automatically put, ``someday science will solve this`` into this gap............Neither can provide any factual explanations..........

Re: # 156

.......romair mian,

are you sure that there is a god ?....... why not a team of gods ?........ given the chaos that one observes in this world and the fact that all large ``systems`` are created by teams, it is more likely that there is a team of rather incompetent creatures behind this mess .......... no ?....... and by the way, when did you become an expert on god ?....... since you asked dost mittar for his credentials, let`s see yours ................