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Husain, Hinduism, Hindustan: Testing Tolerance Ah- so Consociationalism is the same as racial bigotry- Interesting new concepts in political science you are introducing my dear Harish.


Gandhi said:

Kaffirs (Black people) are as a rule uncivilized -- the convicts even more so. They are troublesome, very dirty, and live almost like animals. Each ward contains nearly 50 to 60 of them. They often started rows and fought among themselves. The reader can easily imagine the plight of the poor Indian thrown into such company

Gandhi said:

I observed with regret that some Indians were happy to sleep in the same room as the Kaffirs, the reason being that they hoped there for a secret supply of tobacco, etc. This is a matter of shame to us. We may entertain no aversion to the Kaffirs, but we cannot ignore the fact that there is no common ground between them and us in the daily affairs of life. Moreover, those who wish to sleep in the same room have ulterior motives for doing so. Obviously, we ought to abandon such notions if we want to make progress.

--

And all you can do is produce something about ``not acceping a numerical majority``? Or is asking Muslims to serve Musalmans? And that too defend the indefensible i.e. Gandhi`s racism.


What has your desperation come to my dear Harish_hyd ?

Husain, Hinduism, Hindustan: Testing Tolerance The great Mahatma of equality who never existed.


On What Gandhi wanted

The last week has been very busy. We have not had a moment`s leisure. We saw Mr. Theodore Morison of Aligarh and the well-known Mr. Stead of the Review of Reviews. Mr. Stead has boldly come out to give us all the help he can. He was therefore requested to write to the same Boer leaders that they should not consider Indians as being on the same level as Kaffirs

Indian Opinion, 15-12-1906, CWOMG Vol. 6, pg 183



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On What Gandhi wanted (3)

CLASSIFICATION OF ASIATICS WITH NATIVES

The cell was situated in the Native quarters and we were housed in one that was labeled `For Coloured Debtors`. It was this experience for which we were perhaps all unprepared. We had fondly imagined that we would have suitable quarters apart from the Natives. As it was, perhaps, just as well that we were classed with Natives. We would now be able to study the life of Native prisoners, their customs and manners. ...Degradation underlay the classing of Indians with natives. The Asiatic Act seemed to me to be the summit of our degradation. It did appear to me, as I think it would appear to any unprejudiced reader, that it would have been simple humanity if we were given special quarters. ...the Governor of the gaol tried to make us as comfortable as he could...But he was powerless to accommodate us beyond the horrible din and the yells of the Native prisoners throughout the day and partly at night also. Many of the native prisoners are only one degree removed from the animal and often created rows and fought amongst themselves in their cells.

Indian Opinion 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 120


Apart from whether or not this implies degradation, I must say it is rather dangerous. Kaffirs are as a rule uncivilized -- the convicts even more so. They are troublesome, very dirty, and live almost like animals. Each ward contains nearly 50 to 60 of them. They often started rows and fought among themselves. The reader can easily imagine the plight of the poor Indian thrown into such company

Indian Opinion, 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 135



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On What Gandhi wanted (2)

INDIANS ON PAR WITH KAFFIRS

There, our garments were stamped with the letter `N`, which meant that we were being classed with the Natives. We were all prepared for hardships, but not quite for this experience. We could understand not being classed with the whites, but to be placed on the same level with the Natives seemed too much to put up with. I then felt that Indians had launched on passive resistance too soon. Here was further proof that the obnoxious law was intended to emasculate the Indians.

It was, however, as well that we were classified with the Natives. It was a welcome opportunity to study the treatment meted out to the Natives, their conditions [of life in the gaol] and their habits. ...We were given a separate ward because we were sentenced to simple imprisonment; otherwise we would have been in the same ward [with the Kaffirs]. Indians sentenced to hard labour are in fact kept with the Kaffirs.



Indian Opinion, 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 135



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On What Gandhi wanted (1)

I have, though, resolved in my mind on an agitation to ensure that Indian prisoners are not lodged with Kaffirs or others. When I arrived at the place, there were about 15 Indian prisoners. Except for three, all of them were satyagrahis. The three were charged with other offences. These prisoners were generally lodged with kaffirs. When I reached there, the chief warder issued an order that all of us should be lodged in a separate room. I observed with regret that some Indians were happy to sleep in the same room as the Kaffirs, the reason being that they hoped there for a secret supply of tobacco, etc. This is a matter of shame to us. We may entertain no aversion to the Kaffirs, but we cannot ignore the fact that there is no common ground between them and us in the daily affairs of life. Moreover, those who wish to sleep in the same room have ulterior motives for doing so.
Obviously, we ought to abandon such notions if we want to make progress.


Indian Opinion, 6-1-1909, CWOMG Vol. 9, pg 149



On What Gandhi wanted (9)



Gandhi`s disdain for black people continues:

It is one thing to register Natives who would not work, and whom it is very difficult to find out if they absent themselves, but it is another thing and most insulting to expect decent, hard-working, and respectable Indians, whose only fault is that they work too much, to have themselves registered

What is a Coolie, Indian Opinion 2151904, CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 193

CWOMG: Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi


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On What Gandhi wanted (8)


The whole affair is as much a disgrace to the Indian community as it is to the British Empire. The British rulers take us to be so lowly and ignorant that they assume that, like the Kaffirs who can be pleased with toys and pins, we can also be fobbed off with trinkets

Indian Opinion, 29-2-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 105

CWOMG: Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi


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On What Gandhi wanted (7)


More on SEPARATE AND UNEQUAL theory of Gandhiji...

His Excellency has, moreover, justified the definition of `coloured person` on the ground that it is a legacy from the old Government. But British Indians object to the definition for that very reason. Their position is this. The ordinances will not in practice apply to them. The Boer Government insulted the Indians by classing them with the Kaffirs. Now there is no occasion to perpetuate a needless insult

Indians in the O.R.C, Indian Opinion, 6-1-1906, CWOMG, Vol. 5, pg 177-178

Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi: CWOMG


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On What Gandhi wanted (6)



October 4, 2005

On What Gandhi wanted (5)



It reduces British Indians to a status lower than that of the aboriginal races of South Africa and the Coloured people.

Indian Opinion 15-9-1906, CWOMG Vol. 5, pg 419-423

On What Gandhi wanted (14)

On Minority White rule in South Africa:

We, therefore, have no hesitation in agreeing with the view that in the long run assisted Asiatic immigration into the Transvaal would be disastrous to the white settlement. People will gradually accommodate themselves to relying upon Asiatic labour, and any White immigration of the special class required in the Transvaal on a large scale will be practically impossible. It would be equally unfair to the Natives of the soil. It is all very well to say that they would not work, and that, if the Asiatics were introduced, that would be a stimulus to work; but human nature is the same everywhere, and once Asiatic labour is resorted to, there would not be a sustained effort to induce the Natives to work under what would otherwise be, after all, gentle compulsion. There would be then less talk about taxing the Natives and so forth. Natives themselves, used as they are to a very simple mode of life, will always be able to command enough wages to meet their wants; and the result will be putting back their progress for an indefinite length of time. We have used the words `gentle compulsion` in the best sense of the term; we mean compulsion of the same kind that a parent exercises over children


Indian Opinion, 9-7-1903, CWOMG Vol. 3, pg 359-360

CWOMG: COLLECTED WORKS OF MAHATMA GANDHI.

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On What Gandhi wanted (13)


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On What Gandhi wanted (12)



What the British Indians pray for is very little. They ask for no political power. They admit the British race should be the dominant race in South Africa. All they ask for is freedom for those that are now settled and those that may be allowed to come in future to trade, to move about, and to hold landed property without any hindrance save the ordinary legal requirements

Petition to Natal Legislature, CWOMG, vol3, pg 330


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On What Gandhi wanted (11)


Ah... and they said Plessey Vs Ferguson was bad...

Well here is Gandhi with his theory of ``Separate and Unequal``

...The petition dwells upon ``the co-mingling of the Coloured and white races``. May we inform the members of the conference that, so far as the British Indians are concerned, such a thing is practically unknown? If there is one thing, which the Indian cherishes more than any other, it is the purity of type. Why bring such a question into the controversy at all?

The Transvaal Chambers and British Indians, Indian Opinion 24-12-03, CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 89


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On What Gandhi wanted (10)

More on Gandhi`s theory of ``separate and unequal``

Why, of all places in Johannesburg, the Indian Location should be chosen for dumping down all the Kaffirs of the town passes my comprehension. ...Of course, under my suggestion, The Town Council must withdraw the Kaffirs from the Location. About this mixing of Kaffirs with the Indians, I must confess I feel most strongly

Indian Opinion, 10-4-04, CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 130-131



Note:


CWOMG: COLLECTED WORKS OF MAHATMA GANDHI

KAFFIRS: Gandhi called black folk ``kaffirs`` - as was the custom in his day.

Husain, Hinduism, Hindustan: Testing Tolerance Dear Harish,

I pity your desperaton that you now quote ``Pakis`` who you`ve repeatedly denounced as a stupid people. Gandhi needs such propping up by people. Otherwise his reality is very ugly. No convincing needed there. All you have to do to convince yourself that I am wrong is to close your eyes to the the facts.

Husain, Hinduism, Hindustan: Testing Tolerance Harish,

The word that comes to mind for your pipedreams is ``Khush Fahmi``.

Gandhi`s truth is there in his works, life and actions. He was racist, casteist and a Hindu bigot. I concur with Mr M N Roy when he says that Gandhi was medieval Hindu fascist. There is no other way to put it.

I do believe that whenever you make a claim, its some deep seated insecurity speaking. Are you trying to convince yourself that I am wrong? Are you going to quote ``Paki from Canada`` for reaffirmation of Gandhi`s greatness, when his collected works reveal his reality?

Please proceed sir.

Beating The Retreat Harimau, Veeresh,

What I know honestly is what you both have said is utter hogwash and nothing else- and I am sure you know this.

``Safer place for Muslims``



Shame Shame Shame Shame!!! ON Harimau and likeminded liars.


Nearly 700 Muslims have been slaughtered and burnt, their homes and business looted, while police deployed to stop the rioting watched without doing anything in India in the last few weeks. TV news cameras, especially those of the BBC have taped the complicity of the Gujarat police in the mayhem on Muslims. The riot of Gujarat is justice Indian style. It is revenge for the murder and burning of 58 Hindus in a neighboring state.

The Provocation to Murder and Mayhem

A train carrying Karsevaks --Hindu fanatics, who are determined to build a Hindu Temple at the very site where ten years ago they demolished a Muslim mosque, was set on fire by a Muslim mob that went out of control after an altercation between karsevaks and some Muslims on a railway station in the town of Godhra on February 26th. Nearly sixty people were burnt to death; forty of them were women and children. This incident is clearly a gruesome and morbid manifestation of the prevailing animosity between Muslims and Hindus in India today.

The karsevaks, who happened to be very unsavory characters, were indulging in atrocious behavior on the train. They were exposing themselves to women, harassing Muslim women and robbing petty shopkeepers all along the journey. Their reputation preceded them to Godhra and there when they refused to pay for the snacks they consumed they were attacked by Muslim youth and the altercation ended in the gruesome burning of the train in which innocent women and children were also brunt to death. Even though the Karsevaks were clearly unruly, and even though Indian police has remained very tolerant of Hindu fanatics, what Muslims did in Godhra was deplorable and deserves the strongest of condemnations. All of those responsible for the Godhra tragedy deserve to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

While one can understand Hindu anger and outrage at what happened in Godhra, the Hindu reaction in Gujarat against Muslims who had absolutely nothing to do whatsoever with what happened in Godhra is unacceptable. The role that the police and the government of Gujarat played will forever remain a scar on India’s claims to democracy and secularism.

State Sponsorship of Terror
The most egregious dimension of the riots in Gujarat has been the complicity of the government in the massacre of nearly 700 Muslims. Gujarat, a state ruled by Hindu nationalists, has experienced retaliatory attacks against Muslims and their property. Nearly 700 have been killed of which over 100 have been burnt alive in their homes. Muslim shops and homes have been burnt and robbed while police officers have stood and watched. BBC news crews have been filming parts of the looting and arson and it is amazing how police officers just stood by grinning as Hindu fanatics went about expressing their religious fervor. Even kids felt emboldened to go out and indulge in indiscriminate looting of property.

While what happened at Ghodra can be blamed as an intelligence failure (if it was a premeditated crime) or as a surprise if it was a spontaneous act of evil. In the first case the authorities must be held partially responsible but if it was unexpected they cannot be blamed. But what happened in Gujarat for three entire days was expected. India does not have the civil society that underpins American democracy. After the horrible events of Sept. 11th, politicians, religious leaders and human rights groups took immediate steps to ensure that innocent Arabs and Muslims would not suffer any violent backlashes. In India it is natural to expect that innocent people would be killed. In the last fifteen years Hindu nationalists have gone looking for excuses to massacre Muslims. Now given this provocation it was obvious to all that there would be a blood bath.

The inability of the government of Gujarat to protect the lives and properties of Muslim minorities should not be seen as ineptness or incompetence. It should be seen as the deliberate complicity of the government in the massacre. Indeed the police was acting as facilitators of the arson and murder. It reminds me of the anti-Sikh riots in Delhi after the assassination of Prime Minister Indira Gandhi in 1984 when the government took revenge on the minority by allowing Hindu fanatics to slaughter over 55,000 Sikhs and of course rob and destroy their property.

The Axis of Evil
The relationship between the political party, BJP, in power in Delhi and Gujarat with Hindu fanatics who have terrorized Muslim, Christian and Sikh minorities in India over the last two decades is mutually beneficial. Rather than protecting minorities, parties like BJP act as official sponsors of terror providing political cover to the Hindu fanatics and keeping the police at bay. The fanatics in turn provide political momentum to the Hindu nationalist agenda. This axis of evil between Hindu organizations, the mass movements such as the VHP, the militias such as Shiv Sainiks and Karsevaks, and the political parties such as the BJP, have the blood of over ten thousand Muslims and other minorities on their hands.

There is substantial historical evidence that shows that Hindu-Muslim riots exacerbate social polarities in India and Hindu nationalist parties, like the ruling BJP, have often cashed the resulting hatred at the polls. Political parties in India often use inter-religious riots to benefit at the polls. A few deaths, no matter how horrible, have rarely bothered the conscienceless politicians who rule India. The BJP, which now rules India, had only 2 seats in the national parliament in 1986. It made the dispute over the mosque a national issue and launched a nation wide campaign to demolish it and replace it with a temple. Several riots and thousands of deaths later they achieved their goals of demolishing the mosque in December 1992 and winning the majority in India’s parliament.

The Algebra of Arundhati’s Injudiciousness
Mannyd

Would love to stick around and read your very lame comebacks- but unfortunately or perhaps fortunately I have to run.

So keep `em comin`.

The Algebra of Arundhati’s Injudiciousness
Saminasha on manny:

`I see him less as a knight and more like the Monty Python shopkeeper who sold dead parrots and insisted they were alive... `

Point taken... and we all know who manny`s dead parrot is.

The Algebra of Arundhati’s Injudiciousness
To quote Arthur.. You are a looney mannyd.

Have a good one.

The Algebra of Arundhati’s Injudiciousness
I see that one Mannyd trying to be funny again...

He reminds me of the ``Black Knight`` - you know from the Monty Python fame:

Remember this?





The Black Knight

--

[King Arthur music]
[music stops]
BLACK KNIGHT:
Aaaagh!
[King Arthur music]
[music stops]
BLACK KNIGHT:
Aaagh!
GREEN KNIGHT:
Ooh!
[King Arthur music]
[music stops]
[stab]
BLACK KNIGHT:
Aagh!
GREEN KNIGHT:
Oh!
[King Arthur music]
Ooh! Uuh.
[music stops]
BLACK KNIGHT:
Aaaagh!
[clang]
BLACK KNIGHT and GREEN KNIGHT:
Agh!, oh!, etc.
GREEN KNIGHT:
Aaaaaah! Aaaaaaaaah!
[woosh]
[BLACK KNIGHT kills GREEN KNIGHT]
[thud]
[scrape]
BLACK KNIGHT:
Umm!
[clop clop clop]
ARTHUR:
You fight with the strength of many men, Sir Knight.
[pause]
I am Arthur, King of the Britons.
[pause]
I seek the finest and the bravest knights in the land to join me in my court at Camelot.
[pause]
You have proved yourself worthy. Will you join me?
[pause]
You make me sad. So be it. Come, Patsy.
BLACK KNIGHT:
None shall pass.
ARTHUR:
What?
BLACK KNIGHT:
None shall pass.
ARTHUR:
I have no quarrel with you, good Sir Knight, but I must cross this bridge.
BLACK KNIGHT:
Then you shall die.
ARTHUR:
I command you, as King of the Britons, to stand aside!
BLACK KNIGHT:
I move for no man.
ARTHUR:
So be it!
ARTHUR and BLACK KNIGHT:
Aaah!, hiyaah!, etc.
[ARTHUR chops the BLACK KNIGHT`s left arm off]

ARTHUR:
Now stand aside, worthy adversary.
BLACK KNIGHT:
`Tis but a scratch.
ARTHUR:
A scratch? Your arm`s off!
BLACK KNIGHT:
No, it isn`t.
ARTHUR:
Well, what`s that, then?
BLACK KNIGHT:
I`ve had worse.
ARTHUR:
You liar!
BLACK KNIGHT:
Come on, you pansy!
[clang]
Huyah!
[clang]
Hiyaah!
[clang]
Aaaaaaaah!
[ARTHUR chops the BLACK KNIGHT`s right arm off]

ARTHUR:
Victory is mine!
[kneeling]
We thank Thee Lord, that in Thy mer--
BLACK KNIGHT:
Hah!
[kick]
Come on, then.
ARTHUR:
What?
BLACK KNIGHT:
Have at you!
[kick]
ARTHUR:
Eh. You are indeed brave, Sir Knight, but the fight is mine.
BLACK KNIGHT:
Oh, had enough, eh?
ARTHUR:
Look, you stupid bastard. You`ve got no arms left.
BLACK KNIGHT:
Yes, I have.
ARTHUR:
Look!
BLACK KNIGHT:
Just a flesh wound.
[kick]
ARTHUR:
Look, stop that.
BLACK KNIGHT:
Chicken!
[kick]
Chickennn!
ARTHUR:
Look, I`ll have your leg.
[kick]
Right!
[whop]
[ARTHUR chops the BLACK KNIGHT`s right leg off]

BLACK KNIGHT:
Right. I`ll do you for that!
ARTHUR:
You`ll what?
BLACK KNIGHT:
Come here!
ARTHUR:
What are you going to do, bleed on me?
BLACK KNIGHT:
I`m invincible!
ARTHUR:
You`re a looney.
BLACK KNIGHT:
The Black Knight always triumphs! Have at you! Come on, then.
[whop]
[ARTHUR chops the BLACK KNIGHT`s last leg off]

BLACK KNIGHT:
Oh? All right, we`ll call it a draw.
ARTHUR:
Come, Patsy.
BLACK KNIGHT:
Oh. Oh, I see. Running away, eh? You yellow bastards! Come back here and take what`s coming to you. I`ll bite your legs off!

Dina Wadia Claims Jinnah House Re: # 22

So gujju shows his colors once again!

Tell me... your penchant and fascination for this word ``cuckolded``.... it seems to me that your father might be such a man... and indeed this is just a cry for help... to find your real father?

Is this SuhailKazi getup ... does this mean that you suspect the big Musla who used to live next door??

Wapsi (The Returning) Mohar11...

Good to see you living up to the Chowk Indian ethos...

One Indian Craps.... the other one licks it and says tasty.... the third one jumps in and say ah something smells nice.

Mahadev Gobind Ranade (1842-1901) Re: # 448


Learning from your dad`s experience I see?