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Is Secular India really Secular and Islamic Pakistan really Islamic? DEAR CHOWK STAFF...WHY ON EARTH WAS MY NO. 76/77 POSTINGS DELETED...NO OBSCENTIES...CUT AND PASTES..NOTHING.......ANY REASONS FOR THIS DELETE ALL MY POSTINGS OPERATION HEHE...WOULD LOVE TO KNOW..SERIOUSLY

Is Secular India really Secular and Islamic Pakistan really Islamic? If anyone knows...including the Chowk Staff themselves..is there a way to directly contact the Staff..ie. an email address for instance

Is Secular India really Secular and Islamic Pakistan really Islamic? This ``Dalit`` individual is perhaps sprouting far too excessively for his own good...but to call the BJP a `secular` party can only be the product of a hyper-active imagination. Its key coalition partners and ideological base are precisely of the super nationalist and right wing fanatic type that was slowly but surely eroding India`s claim to be a secular democracy at the turn of this century.

Cause and Detect I genuinely believe that an introspective examination by the West (US and UK primarily obviously), into their often short-sighted, selfish and destructive foreign policies in the developing world as a whole, is definitely a long term requirement for more peaceful times in the furture. Yet, in no way does this examination into ``root causes`` legitimize violence against civilians primarily...and secondarily the issuance of blanket frankly ridicuoulous demans like get out of ``muslim`` lands. The real difference between this terror campaign by Fanatic Muslims has been the global scale, and the concept of the ummah. i.e. A Briton of Pakistani origin blowing himself and many innocents for the perceived suffering of Iraqis (A nation which in 99% likelyhood he had no real idea of culture, customs, traditions or anything for that matter other than they were his ``brethern``). In the world that has developed to the point of the fairly successful system of the nation-state.....it is this fundamental point that is highly worrying..and has to be tackled for that matter. Living in Saudi Arabia...one has to laugh when you hear certain locals wondering why the IRA and Hitler???????...were not called ``Christian terrorists``...and the LTTE...Hindu terrorists....i.e...why is this muslim label being given....and this viewpoint is spread quite far among certain moderates...to me..that is very very worrying....if you cant tell the difference by now...

Running Scared In context of the interesting debate on Pakistani growth, I thought this simple but suggestive email from an ordinary Pakistani in today`s Daily Times provides an interesting balance:


What about the rest?

Sir: I belong to that 99 percent of Pakistan’s population which does not own a new car. According to statistics, only one percent of the population of Pakistan can afford cars and that too with the help of auto financing and auto leasing. I have come across many articles, letters and news discussing the government policy towards the automobile sector. When there is an increase in car prices, authorities show concern. But why don’t they take this much interest in the hikes in the prices of basic commodities like sugar, bread, milk, wheat and salt.

The government seems to be more interested in keeping ministers, MNAs, MPAs and political lobbies happy. What about the rest of the population? Why don’t the authorities show concern for the poor people? I hardly see any voice being raised or concern being expressed over price increases that hit the majority of the people. The government is setting a bad example by providing expensive limousines to its ministers. I wish these ministers would alight from their expensive cars and just spend one day on the street.
HASSAN RABBANI
Via email

Is Secular India really Secular and Islamic Pakistan really Islamic? Actually for about 90% of the world`s ``developed`` nations, a combination of democracy and secularism running in their politics has been accepted by most experts as a reason for not only their economic progress, but also their social harmony and dynamics.(Thereby don`t someone tell me about `communist` China`s and autocratic Gulf`s great growth rates)

Losing My Religion Re 126: Technically Muslim men are allowed to marry non-Muslim women of the Book...i.e Christians and Jews......thereby technically this woman`s marriage would not even be halal if taken from an orthodox Muslim perspective....thereby I doubt her husband or his family were religious in any manner.

Is Secular India really Secular and Islamic Pakistan really Islamic? Complete Obscurantist Bullshit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!....Chowk Staff should welcome free thinking and exchange of views but articles based on a historical or contemporary perspective should have a modicrum of FACT sustaining them.

Pakistan’s Choice Great little Pakistani squabbling match happening...but I think some of the Indians are little harsh on the author here when you just sit and realise quite how progressive his views are too perhaps the vast majority of his compatriots as quite clearly shown here. Still in light of the common consensus among both liberal and conservative Pakistanis, that the 130 odd..perhaps as as high as 150 million muslims are a repressed, economically unproductive and singled out minority....this article..as biased as it may be..has some genuinely relevant points especially in light of in light of the WOT...the following TOI article might be interesting

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1186717.cms

Recent Terror in Egypt Somewhat biased but with enough substance at the core of it to make it relevant:




Why there are no Indian Muslims in al Qaeda

IANS[ SUNDAY, JULY 31, 2005 09:30:03 AM ]


Why are there no Indian Muslims in al Qaeda? There are no easy answers. But there are two probable reasons. One is the assurance of a level-playing field for all citizens in India because of the success of the democratic system. The other is the absence of American influence on Indian policy all through the Cold War years and, to a large extent, even now.

To start with the second, it has been observed that a majority of the terrorists come from Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Egypt and some of the North African countries. What is common about these countries is the lack of a genuine democracy, despite the adherence to form, and longstanding virtual patron-client links with the US. What is more, these two factors are interconnected.

A basic reason why the military or feudal autocrats control these countries is that the US propped them up to serve its economic and diplomatic interests. It was either the presence of oil or their utility as frontline states against the Soviet Union that guided the Americans.

As is known, Osama bin Laden, a Saudi millionaire, was an American ally when his band of fundamentalists fought the Soviets in Afghanistan. It is the cynical use of these countries by Washington that built up a reservoir of resentment among large sections of their people against the US.

This anger may have become all the more intense because there were no democratic outlets - no parliament, opposition parties, a free press and a free judiciary - to let off steam.

The difference between India and these countries is obvious. India`s `noisy democracy`, as an American newspaper recently put it, ensures that all segments of public opinion - anti-US, pro-US, neutral - are routinely aired.

Besides, during the Cold War, India was regarded by the US and the West as being in the anti-American camp despite its claims to be non-aligned. This perception gave India a certain dignified status in the eyes of its own people since the Western world was still seen as being engaged in a colonial enterprise.

The pro-American countries seemingly lacked this sense of self-esteem, as was evident from the title of one of America`s favourite dictator Ayub Khan`s book, ``Friends, Not Masters``.

The Pakistan president`s grouse was that the US tended to behave like a viceroy. The result was that while the governments of these countries were pro-American, most of their people were not.

But even more than India`s neutrality in foreign affairs (which was resented by the US as the revelations of the recent Nixon-Kissinger transcripts show), what has saved the Indian Muslims from falling into al Qaeda`s trap is its vibrant, multicultural democracy. Its value is now understood by the world even more than before because of the terrorist threat.

During the 60th anniversary celebrations of the end of World War II in Moscow, President George W. Bush introduced his wife Laura to Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh with the words that he was the leader of the ``most fascinating democracy in the world`` and pointed out that al Qaeda hadn`t been able to recruit a single Indian Muslim.

A recent Washington Post editorial noted that India`s ``large and tolerant`` Muslim population ``may serve as an ally against Islamic militancy``. The old habit of looking for a docile `ally` is again evident. However, the point that can be made is that the tolerance and upward mobility of Indian Muslims can serve as an example to the rest of the world. And the example underlines how a successful democracy can draw the poison from terrorist propaganda.

One of the reasons why the al Qaeda has gained ground among impressionable youth in the Middle East and elsewhere is that it portrays Muslims as an oppressed community. But this is far from being the truth in India, where the Muslims have done exceptionally well in several fields.

For instance, Bollywood today is full of successful Muslim film stars, so much so that Pakistani artistes too are coming to Mumbai to try their luck in Indian cinema. The unquestioned king of Bollywood at present is Shah Rukh Khan or King Khan, as he is called, whose films are almost always a hit.

The person he has succeeded as the matinee idol is Dilip Kumar or Yusuf Khan, who was the reigning monarch in his trademark roles of a tragic hero when Bollywood was replete with dazzling stars like Raj Kapoor, Dev Anand, Ashok Kumar and Guru Dutt.

Before Shah Rukh began his rise to the top, Naseeruddin Khan was regarded as the man at the top, although he acted more in the `parallel` or art films than in commercial productions. Shah Rukh is not an isolated phenomenon. Following him closely in the popularity charts are Salman Khan, Saif ali Khan, Fardeen Khan and others, including the rising Zayed Khan.

Among the heroines, Shabana Azmi and Tabu are the successors of a long line of Muslim glamour queens - Suraiya, Madhubala, Nargis, Waheeda Rahman, Meena Kumari and Mumtaz.

The point is that when an average Indian Muslim sees Shah Rukh ruling over tinsel world, or the pace attack in the Indian cricket team being spearheaded by Zaheer Khan and Irfan Pathan, or Sania Mirza bringing glory to India in the international tennis circuit, or Azim Premji emerging as a business tycoon, he not only feels proud of his community but also hopes to emulate them. They are his role models.

The fact that there is no glass ceiling in India and any talented individual is enabled to rise to the top irrespective of his background - poor or rich - and community - Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Sikh or whatever - eliminates the sense of desperation and deprivation which drive people to embrace extremism.

In the last one year, nothing has confirmed India`s fairness as a society more than the fact that the country today has a Muslim as its president, a Sikh as prime minister and a Christian of Italian origin as president of the Grand Old Party of Indian independence - all belonging to minority communities.

It is this unique tradition of social harmony that has kept Indian Muslims away from the path of insensate violence

Recent Terror in Egypt Really in regards to Post # 143.....those really are quite pathetic reasons for Musharraf playing game of practice of running with the hares and hunting with the hounds....in the long long as anyone..including Pakistanis know..this is just a receipe for disaster. There are certain times when a nation needs a drastic grass-roots upward make-over....Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan circa 1945 come to mind...as well as pre-Ataturk Turkey....I think its becoming obvious that this critical junction Pakistan has joined this club of nations. So its really no good at all blaming the educated ``elite`` who can recognize what Pakistan has got to do to move ahead eventually as a progressive modern democracy that can link well with its region and the world has a whole. Just because 90% of the nation may consist of illiterate and barely urdu literate masses...who are generally poorly informed of the nation a a whole let alone the world outside...and furthermore that there exists a toxic and virtrolic local press that caters and even instigates a primitive mindset...that does not mean Mushy as a viable leader bows to the wishes of them...No....Nazism came into Germany through ``elections``...and for the vast majority of its presence...had by far a distinct majority support from the German people...especially the classic ``masses``...Imperial Japan had the massess seemingly content with their ``Sun God`` leader...and general hatred and distrust of the outside world and influences....in these cases a foreign power had to come..destroy the entire apparatus..and quite a bit of the nation...and then rebuild like I said from the bottom-up...this may yet happen to Pakistan if the General continues his 2 faced game..and ever more linkages to the global terrorist network appear in Pakistan...OR....he can be a true Ataturk(actually live up to his ``hero`` than back off the minute conservatives speak out)....and take charge of forcing a nation down the path of not just moderation but eventually a secular democracy..that can help the nation grow economically and politically. This really is the dilemma for modern day Pakistan whether the 90% ``masses`` get into their misinformed heads or not....question is..what is Mushy going to do.

Recent Terror in Egypt One thing....when people say Mushy has done more for the WOT than anyone else...captured 700 important leads....blah de blah....do these people not have the logic as to why dear Mushy has captured the largest number of Al-qaeda linked terrorists in Pakistan!!!!!!!!!!!!....clearly there are more terrorists...and operational cells...and lastly an environment conducive for all the above....than in ANY...other nation....so the question is why the false pride...and retarded attitude of indignation when the world wonders....if Mushy is having the hardest job to do in rooting out extremists in Pakistan....it can be for no other reason that the political climate there has been the most conducive for the emergence of a truly multi-national terror apparatus over the past 20 years.

Recent Terror in Egypt I think some one mentioned the desire of the ``muslim masses to be toghether``...or some other inannity of this line.....well..having lived in Saudi Arabia...the ``cradle of the faith``. for 20 odd years.....I can assure there no desire among the ``massess`` in Jeddah, Riyadh or Dammam for any kind of close co-existence with BBakistanis from Peshawar..Lahore or anywhere for that matter (Indians..Banglas...and the rest for that matter too..incase you think Im being biased)..hehehehe......and what really unites the Morrocan and the Indonesian........please..please....this Ummah thing does not work in practice as much as fanatics and other ideologues push...it hasnt for any faith.....not in ANY faith for that matter U dont see Phillipino Cathlotics prostrating themselves for the miseries suffered by their ``brethern`` in Ireland during the worst of the IRA conflict......point is Faith is....and will continue..but so will distinct countries and cultures.....successful unions are based on a huge variety of common traits...cultural..geographic....along with values..both religious and non-religious....such as in the EU...ASEAN....etc.....NOT...on one simple overriding issue of Religion....its not really all that complicated...jus think of the what unites a Morrocan and an Indonesian line for a few moments and it will make sense.

Pakistan’s Choice There can be nothing called ``Secular`` Islam...just as there cannot be ``secular`` Christianity, Judaism, or Hinduism for that matter.....Pakistan needs get on ball with the rest of rational, civilized and developed world and learn to seperate State and Faith in a simple decisive manner. Religion should be left for the personal realm and kept there...it can never help any society when it enters the public.

Pakistan’s Choice Good Article....more than anything else..good to see a Pakistani point of view that is radically altered to far too common stereotype that the World has got used to viewing.

The Open Circle Re Mr. Thamizhan: No, what has gone on, certainly should not be the way that this topic deserves to be treated. But what do you do when you make your first, pretty calm reply with no real malice aimed at anyone NOR ANY PERSONAL OR RELIGIOUS INSULTS and get this in return:

Observe yourself:


#7 by Saj1981 on May 23, 2005 4:25am PT
Decent article mate...also good to see some of the resident RSS boys on form too.
[Reply to interact #7]

IS RETURNED BY THE FOLLOWING!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Re: #7 by GoanCatholic1981

This pathetic creature is the product of events where his great-great-great.....grandmother who was a slave to a Portuguese master in Goa was repeatedly and brutally raped over time.

He is dark-skinned, but feels that other than his skin, he deserves to be considered almost a real Portuguese.

So he has to enthusiastically second any anti-Hindu and anti-India sentiments expressed here on chowk.

Typical illegitimate half-breed mentality.



SO U TELL ME SIR....WHAT ON EARTH WOULD DO WHEN FACED WITH A FASCIST LIKE THAT. TAKE IT LYING DOWN...NAAH I DOUBT IT. POINT IS, ANYONE AND EVERYONE CAN WRITE AND ALWAYS HAS THE WRITE TO EXPRESS HIS VIEWS ON ANY RELIGION AS LONG AS IT IS DONE IN DIGNIFIED AND RATIONAL MANNER. HARISH HERE HAS LAYED OUT CASE THAT MIGHT HAVE SEEMED SLIGHTLY CRITICAL OF CERTAIN SENSITIVITIES, BUT HE HAS LAYERED HIS ARGUMENT IN STRUCTURED WAY, AND WITH AN ACCEPTABLE AMOUNT OF LOGIC. NOW THE SAME COULD HAVE BEEN DONE BY A CHRISTIAN OR A NON-CHRISTIAN FOR THAT MATTER TO DISCUSS THE HOW FASCIST THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WAS THROUGHOUT THE ERA OF THE INQUISITION, AND HONESTLY THAT HAS TO BE ACCEPTABLE TO IN A RATIONAL SECULAR SOCIETY, THAT INDIA HAS BASED ITSELF ON. IT IS WHEN PEOPLE GET VILE AND DOWNRIGHT FANATICAL THAT THIS QUITE CALM DEBATE SUDDENLY BECOMES A SHOW OF RIDCULE THAT IT CURRENTLY IS.

LASTLY SIR..THIS TREND IS CERTAINLY NOT HELPED WHEN MODERATES SUCH AS WHAT YOU YOURSELF SEEM TO BE START COMPLAINING THAT PEOPLE ``SHOULDNT PUT DOWN OTHER PEOPLES FAITHS IN SUBTLE WAY``..ETC WHICH SEEMINGLY LEADS TO ON CRITICISM OF HINDUISM IN THIS CASE NOT BEING ALLOWED....TWO STEPS DOWN THAT PATH AND YOU GET FIRE-BRAND FANATICS LIKE THE ONE I HAVE ADDRESSED BELOW GETTING A ``HARD-ON`` AS U SO APTLY NOTED IN TRYING TO PUSH THROUGH THEIR VIEW AND ANYONE BEING ANTI IT...NATURALLY IS A COMMUNIST...LEFTIST...NON-INDIAN..PAKISTANI...JEW...ALIEN...HEHEHHE...GET THE POINT...FAIR DEBATE HAS HARISH HAS FRAMED HIS ARGUMENT HAS ALWAYS...ALWAYS...BE ALLOWED TO RUN.
[Reply to interact #8]