Voyage to the Valley

Re: #6

Jagdeesh,

I have been lurking around Chowk for five years now. I have yet to come across anything more funny or more true than this i.e. intercat # 6.

In your breakdown, you did not include any `Bravo`-type interacts like this now, did you ?

Also, my best wishes to the author of the article and to everyone on both sides of the border who feel for and are doing something for the benefit of the people of Kashmir. I for one am hopeless as far as respective governments are concerned.


Best regards,
Mustafa

[Garkote was again the place where I was reborn, my name changed to Nusrat and all effort made by the people to make me learn Kashmiri thinking that it was the only thing left to make me adaptable to the place.]

But for the presence of the Indian Army, you WOULD be Nusrat by now, the fourth wife of some goatherd in Kashmir.

So get down on your hands and knees and thank the Indian Army.


LOL.. nice one.. what`s up with tamil brahmin gals??.. (I`m assuming the writer is one from the name.. I could be wrong).. Previously it was amrita or aruna ?? .. Just bcos they get some space in a website for their childish gibberish, they comment on a serious issue like Kashmir..

We have to wait and see how much of the flexibility from Pak is 9/11 (no diff. bet. muslim freedom fighters and terrorists) induced..

:-))

A Kashmiri is as different to a Bengali like a Tamil is to a Punjabi.. If Kashmir gets anything special, I want TamilNadu the same privileges..

Even I felt like I want to secede after a military man (probably from north east) prevented me from crossing a short cut road near the OTA in chennai.. But after some time decided it is not such a good idea.. :-))

To all Chowkies:

Haiy tau yeh rasm-e-zamanah, lekan phir bhi
Ho mubarak tumhain yeh saal nya, meray rafiq

Happy New Year

Mohammad Gill

Instead of groping in the dark about what we ``think`` is the situation let us read some one who is better informed:

Hindustan Times

A solution, anyone?


A.G. Noorani

December 19, 2005

‘The BJP alone can find a solution to our problems with Pakistan, because Hindus will never think whatever we have done is a sell-off,’ L.K. Advani said on March 13, 2004. Ousted from power, the BJP has done its best to obstruct the peace process. A.B. Vajpayee wrote to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, on June 16, 2005, criticising the government’s halting steps towards a rapprochement. It would be a great pity if the PM were to allow himself to be deflected from course by the BJP.

The two-year-old peace process has reached a deadlock; but the Kashmir issue has reached a stage from which, with skill and good will, it can be brought to a finale fully consistent with the criteria which the PM propounded in May 2004. He told Jonathan Power that “the Kashmir dispute is stopping us from realising our potential” and “we have an obligation to ourselves to solve the problem”. The correspondent reported: “I pushed him on how far he himself would accept compromise with Pakistan over Kashmir. ‘Short of secession, short of redrawing boundaries, the Indian establishment can live with anything’.”

President Pervez Musharraf’s proposal for ‘self-governance’ ensures just that. It marks abandonment of the 58-year-old demand for ‘self-determination’, which implies change of status, unlike self-governance. The contrast is so glaring. Its nuances emerge clearly when the record is recalled. Two years ago, on December 18, 2003, Musharraf said, “We are for the UN Security Council resolutions, whatever that stands for. However, now we have left that aside. We keep saying that if we want to resolve this issue, both sides need to talk to each other with flexibility… going beyond stated positions… and meeting halfway.” This was said on the eve of the Saarc summit in Islamabad where he met Prime Minister Vajpayee. The dialogue process was resumed on January 6, 2004.

On October 25, 2004, he suggested a precise, if debatable, formula as “a food for thought for you (the editors). Take Kashmir in its entirety. It has seven regions. Two of the regions are in Pakistan and five are in India... identify a region, whether it is the whole of seven or part. I do not know. Identify the region forever and change its status.” Three features stand out — tentativeness, tacit acceptance of the partition of J&K and change of status, which India could not possibly accept.

A major step was taken this year on April 18 when the president said: “The LoC cannot be permanent. Borders must be made irrelevant and boundaries cannot be altered. Take the three together, and now discuss the solution.” This was amplified on May 20 when ‘self-government’ was first aired. “We need to find a via media where Kashmiris who may be demanding independence, even their concerns are addressed. Self-government must be allowed to the people of Kashmir.” More to the point: “We do understand India’s sensitivity over their secular credentials” and, therefore, “it cannot be, may be on a religious basis”. On demilitarisation, he left open the question whether it “should precede or follow cessation of militancy”. It was like “the egg and the chicken conundrum”. Significantly, he suggested a regional basis as part of which “maximum self-governance must be allowed and borders rendered irrelevant”.

He was perceptibly inching towards acceptance of the status quo. The Rubicon was crossed with an interview at Canberra on June 14 in which he said: “Autonomous Kashmir is my earnest desire, but its complete independence will not be acceptable to both Pakistan and India.” If plebiscite under the UN’s resolutions is ruled out, as it was on December 18, 2003, and so is independence, what else remained but acceptance of the status quo — subject to negotiations on the consequences of the accord? What more can Pakistan possibly concede? Do we expect it simply to accept the LoC, and cry quits?

The interview was published just as the APHC leaders were set to return to Srinagar from their trip to Pakistan. It is unlikely that the president did not give them any inkling of his ideas. It was during this promising phase that Vajpayee decided to throw a spanner in the works. He did not want anyone but the BJP to receive credit for such a historic accord.

Against this background, stretching over two years, the president’s latest offer acquires particular significance. He told the BBC on October 21 that it was necessary to identify exactly “what is Kashmir”; demilitarise the identified region and then give self-government to the people there. “I have always believed there is an opportunity of a lifetime to solve the dispute,” adding. “Let’s make the LoC irrelevant. Let’s open it out.”

He did not demand either abrogation of the LoC or a change in status of any region as he had on October 25, 2004. He used the terms self-government and autonomy synonymously. They both imply tacit acceptance of the sovereignty of the State that administered the territory. That on November 13, during the Saarc summit at Dhaka, Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz mooted the proposal to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh suggests that Pakistan is in earnest about it.

Musharraf’s proposal must be read in the context of his strong, repeated encouragement to the APHC to parley with India, in total contrast to Pakistan’s opposition to such talks in the past. In Kashmir, the proposal has been welcomed by the APHC, the PDP and the NC. The Urdu weekly, Chattan, published from Srinagar and edited by an upright journalist, Tahir Mohiuddin, has over the past years been sharply critical of all — Pakistan, India, the APHC, the NC, the PDP and the militants. Its banner headlines on November 28 reflected some dismay in Kashmir: ‘Is Musharraf trying to wash his hands off (Kashmir)?’ Most unlikely. But he has been desperately seeking a solution, honourable to all, so that he can concentrate on pressing problems at home.

The trend since July 16, 2001 is unmistakable. At the Agra breakfast, he pleaded that each side should exclude extreme proposals. One concession followed another thereafter.

Not churlish indifference but constructive exploration should be India’s response. Ten questions are inescapable: will self-governance extend to POK as well as the northern territories? With whom will Pakistan negotiate its quantum? Will such an accord be subject to India’s approval as well? Will India concede to Pakistan a voice in the quantum of self-governance it accords to Kashmir? With whom will India negotiate the quantum of autonomy? After a fresh poll?

Will this be part of an Indo-Pak agreement on the lines of the Aaland and South Tyrol accords — bilateral accords whereby a State agrees with its neighbour to respect the autonomy of a territory under its sovereignty? Will the LoC be rationalised? And recognised as an international boundary with free access to Kashmiris on both sides of the divide? What mechanism will be set up to oversee this? Finally, if Pakistan accepts the status quo, what concessions has India to offer to it and to Kashmiris?

This is the most promising overture India has ever received from Pakistan. The peace dividend will be enormous. It will be arrogant folly to let such an opportunity slip from our hands.

#32 by jang

[i think the pakistanis have changed their tune from ``ksahmir banega pakistan`` to ``kashmir to be resolved by wished of people in the valley``..]

This is one of the biggest jokes the Pakis have been playing on the Kashmiris. In supposedly ``Azad`` Kashmir, candidates standing in the local elections are required to sign an undertaking promising full support to J&K`s accession to Pakistan. Amanullah Khan, erstwhile chief of the JKLF was not allowed to participate because he refused to sign this undertaking. And yet, they have the balls to call it ``Azad``.

[also one change has been some noises are made about ``just give us (ksamiris) the valley since that is muslim, keep the rest``. an independent valley will most certainly be under pakistani ambit like azad kashmir is. india has to get comfortable with that...]

This position has been adopted by Pakis keeping in view the ground reality which is that they can never force India to surrender Kashmir. However if they can get India to hand over at least the valley, the Paki Army can claim victory and walk out of the whole mess with its head held high, claiming that it forced India to surrender the ``Muslim-majority`` (note the emphasis here) valley. Back home, it would convince the ``clueless as usual`` Paki awaam that it let go of the other areas because they are Hindu and Buddhist majority areas.

Also, I`m sure the Indian govt. realizes that, which is why the unambiguous position that there will be no redrawing of the borders. I think it is Pakistan that will have to get comfortable with that reality :-)

It took three and half wars, failed insurgencies for Pakistanis and Kashmir Muslims to
change their tunes. Give another fifty years, wasting of one more generation and
Kashmiri Muslims thikaanay pay aa jaayenge.
Aur do char thappadonki zarurat hai.

harish_hyd

i think the pakistanis have changed their tune from ``ksahmir banega pakistan`` to ``kashmir to be resolved by wished of people in the valley``..also one change has been some noises are made about ``just give us (ksamiris) the valley since that is muslim, keep the rest``. an independent valley will most certainly be under pakistani ambit like azad kashmir is. india has to get comfortable with that...

#28 by hindvi

[Pakistan seems to outwardly be showing a lot of flexibility right now, going by Musharraf`s statements, they are also ofcourse in a weak position but but India is not responding and not takling any advantage of striking a deal from a position of superiority. I used to think only the pakistani politicians are stupid but alas.]

Just what has Pakistan proposed? Other than foregoing the insistence on UN resolutions, which they were in no position to force upon India any way, what else have the Pakis proposed? This ``what belongs to me is mine, but lets negotiate on what is yours`` attitude has thankfully fooled no one in India.

Musharraf`s only statements till date have been that of ``we must find a solution to the Kashmir problem within my lifetime``. If this is flexibility, then I`m Bill Gates` son.

The true test of sincerity would be to put an end to infiltration and close down all terrorist training camps, which are still around and teeming with wannabe Jihadis and suicide bombers. Till Pakistan does that, India will remain unmoved, and rightly so.

Harimau

Are we certain that the author is not imprecating the wrath of the One and Only True God (Who So Loves Kicking Hindu Unbelievers Out of Kashmir) (and whose magnificent and benevolent beard she, as symptoms reveal, unforgottably touched on a freezing cold - but, oh, how innocently young and divinely exhilarating... - Garkote night) upon cruel, unjust, repressive, and faithless (which proves the cruel, unjust, and repressive part) Indian army for the never-to-be-pardoned `crime-against-humanity` of not actively helping Nusrat achieve that joyful, much-looked-forward-to union?

---

Divya, I haven`t felt like being so spiteful in a long time. Hopefully, you won`t take this personally (any more than you have taken the views of terrorist killers/ their helpers and sympathizers as God-revealed impeccable facts against the armed men and women of your country). The wild assumption here is that you have not already terminated ties with us cruel and unjust people, and reborn, joined the blessed and innocent lambs in helping them bomb little Hindu children (unjustly) sleeping in their - that`s what their parents thought - homes.

[Garkote was again the place where I was reborn, my name changed to Nusrat and all effort made by the people to make me learn Kashmiri thinking that it was the only thing left to make me adaptable to the place.]

But for the presence of the Indian Army, you WOULD be Nusrat by now, the fourth wife of some goatherd in Kashmir.

So get down on your hands and knees and thank the Indian Army.

Jang
the problem is that Kashmiris right now dont appear to be happy. their situation does have some direct contribution to the general atmosphere of hindu muslim perception of each other, but Kashmir`s impact on this general mood is much larger through the effect it has on the issue of India-Pakistan relations which are predicated on it. The hindu perception of muslim and the muslim perception of hindu within India and pakistan is largely shaped by their respective behaviour here, but since India has a large percentage of muslims than Pakistan has of Hindus the impact on India`s internal social structure is more severe.

The general improvemnt in indo-pak relations will definitely contribute to a marked improvement in hindu- muslim relations. of course a quelling of comunal riots and gujrats would have an equally, if not more, significant impact but that is a more difficult issue to tackle.

but the problem is Indo-pak relations are so dependent on Kashmir, and hence Kashmir`s importance. Even so every problem is an oportunity and Kashmir can be an opportunity to change the sub continent`s bitter past. Pakistan seems to outwardly be showing a lot of flexibility right now, going by Musharraf`s statements, they are also ofcourse in a weak position but but India is not responding and not takling any advantage of striking a deal from a position of superiority. I used to think only the pakistani politicians are stupid but alas.

We can`t threaten anyone, least of all an Indian - Hindu or Muslim - into agreeing with us. Either someone understands our point of view or someone does not.

And godoo, while its clean fun dumping on commies and lefties, we can do without bringing in treason. Here, we seems to have a simple case of naivete, exacerbated by great emotional upsurge, brought on, one can guess, by the liberating experience of leaving home for the first time. Add to that the misplaced `moral high` that enables a person whose opinion nobody has ever cared to hear up to this point, declare: all the elders at home have been wrong, they are at fault.

hindvi, do you think
1. hindu muslim relations in india will improve with a resolution of kashmir in the form of an autonomous state or region double-fast?
2. hindu muslim relations in india will improve with improved relationship with pakistan in the slow-progress mode, but kashmir remaining status-quo ..lesser violence, softer border, state-govt gaining a better legitimacy.

(i am not posing that indian muslims have a part in kashmir struggle/insurgency).

``n that case , make sure you dont have any relatives or near or dear ones left in India by that time. You know what will happen to you muslims wherver you are in India in case we lose Kashmir....``

I will tell you exactly what will happen., A cowardly piece of crap will type a few paras extra on the keyboard abusing other anonymous people on the web. Nothing else will happen.

This is a typical Commie ranting you hear from these traitors who love to fall at the feet of the conquering hordes. Damn them and ignore their whining. Kashmir`s only solution is the statusquo. LOC should be converted into International Border, that is the most India will ever cede to Pakistan. Anything else, wait for the day when pigs fly.

There are two separate issues here. One, the issue of India and Pakistan`s historical and current disagreement over Kashmir, and the nature of Kashmiri behavior and involvement in this issue. The other is the author`s reaching conclusions about international political facts from meeting some people who nurse hatred against India, and from being given ``akhroots, apples, bangles and what not,`` and her ``name (being) changed to Nusrat.``

Unless the author can show that she really understands the Kashmiri context in any depth, her teenage gushing over not missing mom, sister or everyone else at home seems pretty silly.