Have Muslims Become Caricatures?
Another point of view

masadi #67

`` #65, the Europeans have done quite a bit to marginalize Muslims why they haven`t constructed a whole oriental mythology around other religions is because they never felt threatened by them as they did by Islam and now the oil factor figures in as well. Europeans were failing in their attempts to clean up human dung from their cities while Muslims were setting up libraries, hospitals, and universities. They were in the sewers, Muslims lived in highly organized and developed cities. The Europeans never got over thier inferiority complex and those tales they invented are symptoms of that.``

Europeans have gone a long way since the medieval ages. It is too bad Hitler choose to attack Soviet Union instead of unleashing the Wehrmacht on the Middle East.

It is true. By reacting to these cartoons the way that we muslims have, we have only given the world media an excuse to turn us into cartoons. I totally support peaceful protest but what`s been happening in Lahore and Peshawer, where in addition to symbols of western capitalism, local shops belonging to local people (most likely muslims) have been ransacked only confirms this fact. We muslims are our worst enemies!

re: masadi # 70

You know that doesn`t constitute an answer at all :)

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Look, people are making very serious charges against Europeans: marginalization of Muslims.

It should be possible to list some clear steps Europe has taken in this direction.

Well, what a pleasant surprise. I`ve been away from Chowk for a while now, and coming back I`m seeing a major change. Gone are the days when the discussion board from every article (even those on quantum physics) had to degenerate into an Indo/Pak bashing match. I`m so happy to see that the only rabid lunatic of the old guard left around here is arjunm; lets hope his days here on Chowk are numbered too.

While I certainly wouldn`t argue for (or even agree with) a reunification, like Salim Chauhan says. But I do think that a single currency, open trade, visa-less travel (a la Schengen) etc would benefit both countries. In the end a drastic reduction in our huge militaries would be the order of the day.

Now, I myself am pretty much an atheist, but I still found these cartoons in bad taste. I would condemn the mocking of any religious figure, except of course Scientology ;)

But muslim reaction has been wrong. How does a Pakistani guy burning another Pakistani guy`s car constitute ``revenge`` against Denmark? We haven`t learned that`s all. We`re the proverbial boys who are bringing a knife to a gunfight. We need to learn how to fight them (peacefully) on their own turf. Stop buying their products (if you can resist those delicious butter cookies). Take the Jyllands-Posten to court in Denmark. Most European countries have legislation that outlaws slander and racism. Use the peaceful avenues that are at our disposal to register our displeasure.

Regards,
Irfan.

#231, HP you write <<< The US is framing the issues in this war and the Islamic rightwing is responding to it but there is no doubt in my mind that there are some in the Islamic rightwing that are more puppets of the Saudi regime than any thing ideological. >>>

I agree with you there of course, but the Saudi regime has intricate connections with the US elite as well and the Jihadis more closely represent the Saudi brand of ``Islam`` which as I still maintain is the caricature of the crusaders brought to life by circumstance. Once brought to life it assumes a life of its own. Consider the ghetto in the US where African Americans are isolated and segregated. In order to maintain that does the US govt need day to day direct intervention. Of course not, it maintains itself and ensures that people are kept in their proper subservient position through a network of institutional mechanisms.

Now does the US elite really want democracy in the ME. Surveys show that the people there detest the policies of the US govt, if a people`s government were to come to power there they would change their relationship with the US and the US corporations would suffer tremendously as a result. Would the US corporations, the ones that weild extreme influence in the entire US political system, allow that? Of course not, so this democracy facade is just popular sloganeerism. Time and again the US elite need to reinforce fears and to show their own public and the world that these bogeymen they have created area a real threat, and the media, the jihadis etc are all part of the tools that are employed by this elite for that very end. I understand the cartoons and the reactions in the same context.

#69, pick up a book or books by Edward Said.

masadi

I will have to plead ignorance: if Europeans have been doing things to Muslims, over and above what we all do to one another, and to followers of other religions, then we would benefit from some specific information.

#205 by masadi 63 on this thread.

“My comments on HP`s article, they are relevant here as well:
“The article is good in providing tabulations of events and a timeline but could have been improved upon on the reasoning part. The response of Christians to derogatory images of Jesus in Europe or America cannot be compared to the Islamic response to the cartoons because each has had a different history of relationship with the West”

When I wrote the article, the issue was still a developing story so it was short on reason as there were many facts that needed checking up. The other issue was the length of the article. I wanted to bring the issue up for discussion and then make the other points. If you read my posts on that thread you will see that I was trying to guide the issue to a certain perspective.

I agree with you that this issue should not be taken in isolation and some comparisons were not completely accurate but they were to bring the point home that the issue has more depth to it then just a simple press freedom facade. Later on, it has been proven beyond any doubt that the whole thing was inspired and when it failed to catch public attention the first time around, another shot was taken at it to finally bring it to the street level.

Generally, it is not mine or Hamidm’s war. It is a war between the right-wings of the both sides. So when you take a stand, you will always tend to be more confrontational than I could ever be. People like me and Hamid are caught in the middle of the salvo but I think in the end people like Hamid and I will end up cleaning the whole mess up. As has always been the case :)

The US is framing the issues in this war and the Islamic rightwing is responding to it but there is no doubt in my mind that there are some in the Islamic rightwing that are more puppets of the Saudi regime than any thing ideological.

Saudi Arab undeniably has more influence in the ME than anyone other country and the pattern that had emerged out of this mayhem clearly showed that the groups inspired by Saudi Arab were the ones that were causing the destruction.

The Saudi and Iran rivalry in the ME is forcing the Saudis to create or help create a situation where Iran is isolated for a future action. We saw them doing that before the Iraq war and now it is quiet obvious which side they stand on.

I heard from some people that when the Saudi King visited Pakistan; he was upset with the Pak government for holding the Islamic parties back on this issue. After his visit, the Pak admin had to back down and now we see the right wing parties in Pakistan are also making noises.

It is hard to tread or keep your head up in the murky waters during the propaganda blitz from both sides but like you, I also don’t take this as an isolated issue. There is a background to it and my first conclusion still stands that the initial effort was to neutralize the public opinion in Europe and allow both French and Germans to step forward when the conflict with Iran heats up.

#65, the Europeans have done quite a bit to marginalize Muslims why they haven`t constructed a whole oriental mythology around other religions is because they never felt threatened by them as they did by Islam and now the oil factor figures in as well. Europeans were failing in their attempts to clean up human dung from their cities while Muslims were setting up libraries, hospitals, and universities. They were in the sewers, Muslims lived in highly organized and developed cities. The Europeans never got over thier inferiority complex and those tales they invented are symptoms of that.

#65, the Europeans have done quite a bit to marginalize Muslims why they haven`t constructed a whole oriental mythology around other religions is because they never felt threatened by them as they did by Islam and now the oil factor figures in as well. Europeans were failing in their attempts to clean up human dung from their cities while Muslims were setting up libraries, hospitals, and universities. They were in the sewers, Muslims lived in highly organized and developed cities. The Europeans never got over thier inferiority complex and those tales they invented are symptoms of that.

masadi

You could not have been more right. The Europeans, like very many before them, have marginalized and oppressed Muslims. It may be related to the way the Europeans have championed, lionized, and welcomed the followers of all other religions.

A religiously saturated and intolerant West has finally come in conflict with secular, and easy-to-live-with followers of Islam. Emotionally obsessed with myths for history and communally obsessed with religious wars for domination, the West has decided to impose Jihad on future-oriented Muslims in some places, and imagine it in others.

Of course, Western logic too is very different. And HP has a habit of sometimes using that.

Have Muslims become caricatures, asks the author.

Not at all. Just see how they are trying their best to integrate their women into the mainstream.

From http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1701004,00.html

Don`t work with men, Muslim clerics tell Indian women

Randeep Ramesh and Sanjay Jha
Friday February 3, 2006
The Guardian


Muslim women should not work with men or go shopping in areas where they could mix with strangers of the opposite sex, according to an edict issued by the influential All India Muslim Personal Law Board, which claims to represent the nation`s 140 million Muslims.
Maulana Syed Nizamuddin, the board`s general secretary, said the decision to ask Muslim women not to work in call centres and avoid any kind of job which involves interacting with men was part of a package of ``social reforms we advocate``.

He said that women were also dressing in western clothes, especially in the country`s new shopping malls, and these often were ``too revealing``. ``Men will gaze on them if they visit the market. It is extremely essential to cover their entire body. Better such errands are left to the men in the family,`` said Mr Nizamuddin.

The comments provoked anger among Muslim liberals, who say such pronouncements are an anachronism and will undermine the authority of the clergy.

Syeda Hameed, of the Muslim Women`s Forum, said that the board needed to reflect a more ``sane, moderate, realistic`` view of the world. ``There is nothing in the Qur`an or the Sharia law about these things. In fact one of the wives of the prophet was a businesswoman. Saying these things just makes Islam end up looking anti-women, which it is not.``

The board, which is made up of leading Muslim clerics from all over India, carries considerable weight. Almost every mosque in the country takes its advice.

However opinion polls have shown that Indian Muslims, who have benefited less from the country`s wealth and development in recent years, have become increasingly preoccupied with material matters rather than spiritual ones.

According to a poll commissioned by CNN-IBN, a news network, 69% of Indian Muslim respondents chose ``livelihood issues`` as the most important issue facing the community. Only 4% said religion.

Academics say that although India has many prominent Muslims in Bollywood and in sports, this has masked the community`s relative decline in the country. Professor Pratap Bhanu Mehta, of Delhi`s Centre for Policy Research, said that for ``all the visibility of Muslim film stars and cricketers, there is considerable evidence to suggest that independent India has done a bad job of integrating Muslims into the mainstream of politics``.

I am just now getting to this article, and since I have already commented on a similar topic article, I will reproduce some of those comments here as well. The article is good in providing tabulations of events and a timeline but could have been improved upon on the reasoning part. The response of Christians to derogatory images of Jesus in Europe or America cannot be compared to the Islamic response to the cartoons because each has had a different history of relationship with the West. The Jewish response, if Jews were relegated to ghettos as Arabs are in Europe today, would have been quite similar to the Muslim reaction. Why it is not is because of different social circumstances post world war 2. Muslims are on the defensive much more, based upon social circumstance and treatment, than either Christian or Jewish communities, and that circumstance feeds into their relationship with their own religion as well. That is how I understand it.

What the Islam haters are doing is, and I do not refer to the author but to masanamuthu(#22), who is a cheerleader for Ali Sina of faithfreedom (whose arguments I have rubbished many times on his forum), is that they isolate the response from all social and historical context and then based upon a non random sample of the response they condemn Islamic ideology and the entire global community of Muslims. Not only is this dim witted, it is garbage and bigoted hate. (They are damn fools and Ali Sina is the mother of all damn fools-)

Here is what I had written on the other thread that adds to what I mean by social circumstance and historical context:

``The crusaders have been labelling Islam and Muslims as violent and ``the other`` or ``outsider`` for a long time. Now when these new crusaders (read American elite) have had cultural hegemony for a while it is inevitable that that label will lead to a self fulfiling prophecy among certain marginalized groups. Those who put these cartoons to print knew that some such (not in the majority) reaction would be produced, and they were waiting for it to capitalize on it and use that selective empirical evidence to portray Islam as violent and Muslims as barbarians. It is not the fault of the Muslims. Similar riots broke out in Toledo Ohio a few months back when some Neo Nazis arranged a parade in the inner city where there was a big population of African Americans- similar phenomenon designed by people who wanted to benefit from a predictible reaction. You have to differentiate between individual vs crowd behavior especially among marginalized oppressed communities that are deliberately isolated and labeled as the other.

That said, you should note that the vast majority of demonstrations were peaceful. People have a right to say enough is enough, and they can demonstrate as much as they want. They have a right to say that this damn GWB is abusing our religion`s name for his politico-economic reasons and all the other damn fools under cover of that, come out of the woodwork to spew their age old hatred for Islam because somehow it is open season for all now. Then the media, regardless of fact, picks on the few instances of violence and you condemn the entire ``ummah``. Enough of that bs. The one making an ass of himself, GWB, is the one proclaimed as the ``leader of the free world``. We need to protest him.

<<<<

Reported by Associated Press
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060211/ap_on_re_mi_ea/prophet_drawings

Asia saw its biggest demonstrations yet, and most there — like across much of the world — were peaceful. But sporadic violence demonstrated the difficulty Islamic leaders face in managing what Muslims see as righteous anger over satirical drawings of their most revered figure.

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Next, what about the Jihadis? Here I feel, is my most important point of this post: The ``jihadis`` are a convenient caricature of Islam constructed by the crusaders so that by using them for various socio/political/economic motives they can dominate the ``real`` Islam and the Muslims. That is what the jihadis are, they are not Muslims, they are the caricature of the crusaders brought to life (animated) by circumstance. That is what they are. Protest them as well, just as you protest GWB.

#57 by Salim_Chauhan

[Didn`t you know? According to several Pakis, Jinnah was European - thus his hold over the fair people of Pakiland. :) The Bengalis found out that 60% is not larger than 40% of the same total.]

Yaar tell that to Yasser. He`ll be mad as hell.

The real problem is that the Muslim world has not gone through the reniassance or enlightenment period other religions have gone through (albeit by varying degrees). That is why they are at ideological war with the world.

Much like the 2nd World War was the final step to sweep out feudal Europe and usher in the era of globalization, I think a re-alignment is going to happen to sort out the incompatibility of atrophied Islamic thought with the lightning pace of changes that are going on in the world. What remains to be seen is how this re-alignment will happen. Will it continue in the low temp manner (war against terrorism etc.) or will there be another catastophic world war with the possibility of nuclear weapons being used, now that Iran has upped the ante?

Fallout of the Drawing controversy.

I believe that Iran would suffer the most as a result of this controversy. The Iraq war was a difficult sell in Europe. There were major peace or Anti war demonstrations in Europe before the attack on Iraq. But I think this time around the situation would change. The political landscape in Europe is entirely different than what it was before the Iraq War. Germany has a new chancellor and France is weakened by the recent riots there.

If the Iran crisis deepens, the likelihood of Europe opposition to attack on Iran would be minimal. The Europeans have been effectively neutralized.

The German Chancellor is already trying to place herself in the forefront of the Iran issue and it is most likely that Germany would emerge as the most vocal supporter of the any US action in Iran. Germany might play the role that UK played in the Iraq war. Interestingly, The German and French papers quickly re-printed the drawings but UK papers did not follow suit enthusiastically.

“The embassy attacks, plus world-wide threats, protests, and economic boycotts, have gone far to convince European public opinion that the war of civilizations between the west and the Muslim world is indeed inevitable.”

I think it is in the interest of Iranian and other Muslims to bring the rhetoric down and stop these violent demonstrations. Any untoward terrorism incident following these demonstrations, would bring a quick response on Iran.


Some news reports suggest that the editor of Jyllands Posten who ordered the publication of the cartoons Flemming Rose, has extensive connections to Daniel Pipes, another madman who runs Campus Watch, a neo-McCarthyite witch-hunting organization which vilifies American professors who criticize Israel or show sympathy for the Palestinians.

Flemming Rose provided details of his conversation with Daniel Pipes in an article published in 2004. They talked about the need to mobilize Europe for the war of civilizations against the Moslem world. Rose wrote: ``Pipes is surprised that there isn`t greater alarm in Europe over the challenge that Islam represents thanks to falling rates of fertility and a weakened sense for its own history and culture.`` (Flemming Rose, ``The Threat from Islamism, Jyllands-Posten, October 29, 2004)

I see many interactor jumping on Jyllands-Posten`s refusal to publish cartoons on Jesus as an example of European double standard on Freedom of press etc.

That would be totally missing the point. The point is every newspaper in free world has the right to publish what they want. Being a christian conservative news paper, they dont want to publish cartoons on Jesus. That is their right.

The issue is not whether Jyllands-Posten has an agenda or whether they are fair. They are clearly not.

The issue is how Islamic society can come out of this blind adherence to literal interpretation of One Book and join a multi cultural world, esp. when they are a minority in a Christian majority or a Hindu majority country.

You guys have all the freedom to do whatever you want in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan or any other Islamic country (which you already do). But you can`t demand others to heed your sentiments/demands in Non Islamic countries,

Thanks,
Avkrishna