Condi's Waterloo

majumdar (#42)

There is not a single issue that these mullahs can point out to justify declaration of Ahmadis as non-Muslims. They keep insisting that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was the last prophet, but are unable to back up their claim.

When pushed for a reference, our resident mullah Urstruly posted a hadith … where the dear Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said … “I am the last Prophet, and this mosque of mine is the last mosque”.

I asked our resident mullah to read the hadith again … carefully, this time … and to explain the meaning of “last” … as in “last mosque”. He could not respond!!! Ironically, the same hadith was later quoted by Naqshbandi Sahib, but he too could not explain the meaning of “last”.

On a slightly different note, it is worth mentioning that in Quran Allah Himself uses the term “Muslim” for believers, without vesting any authority in anyone, in any form to declare anyone a non-Muslim. When fanatic mullahs start declaring others non-Muslims, they are in violation of Quranic teachings.

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Violent persecution of Ahmadis is a vivid example of sheer hypocrisy that infests the ummah and its leadership. They continue to spread propaganda against Ahmadi-Muslims, riling masses to attack Ahmadi mosques, businesses, homes, and lives. All this, while they continue to point fingers at neo-cons and raising a hue and cry about violation of ummah’s rights by western infidels.

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This may surprise you, but according to these mullahs, Islamic punishment for adultery is death. Furthermore, according to them, a person who leaves Islam too should be killed. Furthermore, a person who blasphemes Islam also should be killed.

The culture of violence and extreme fanaticism that ummah has nurtured all along has now come full circle to haunt them. This view is an important part of the puzzle that completes the picture of turmoil in the Middle East, Iraq, and fanaticism that is associated with ummah. You will hardly see masadi Sahib draw attention to such issues that severely plague the ummah in this day and age.

#42, ballukhan {``Now that we have adressed your groups could you please agree to the assertion that Islamic Fascism specifically exists in the ideologies of Al-Qaeda ``}

Ballu Bhai,
YES.

Let us try to imagine the medium term future. The US/ UK media has now started pointing fingers at Pakistan.

Does that mean that a comprehensive thrashing (threshing???) of Pakistan and the flushing out of the Jehadis is now increasingly imminent !!!!!!

An equal number (if not more) of Jehadis would be present in India too- albeit without state patronage. They would have to be eliminated in the same manner. Also, once we are on an elimination spree, might as well get rid of the myriad Senas, Dals, Leagues & Fronts which keep cropping up and preach hatred.

Perhaps it would be better for both countries to take extreme measures and set their own houses in order. We do not need an Israel/ USA to take care of our own homegrown Hezbollahs.

Re: # 36

Fascism is the odeology which has been well documented and written about. It is like a blue print which the world has recognized as inherently evil and against individual freedom. Fascism shares may of its characterisitcis with other political ideologies and most of the organizations you talked about are indeed fascistic.......

Salim miyan most of these organizations you have referred to are certainly fascistic in nature. [Period]

Now that we have adressed your grouse could you please agree to the assertion that Islamic Fascism specifically exists in the ideologies of Al-Qaeda and can also be seen in other versions of the literalist Islamist ideologies............

Zeemax sahib,

I will not quarrel with you on the tenets of Ahmediyya faith. I know hardly anything about my own faith let alone Islam or its various sects to justify initiating a debate with you. Now I am sure you (and Masadi and Ustruly) would have some valid reason to consider Ahmediyaism as being incompatbile with Islam, Sattarbhai and others may think otherwise. But that`s only individual opinion- what is not right is the state (I have Pakistan in mind) taking sides on the matter and discriminating between citizens for adopting any particular POV or persecuting some sect for expressing that POV.

Regards

Re: # 39
Yeah, because anything less than 10 bearded bastards for one Jewish life is a defeat for Israelis.

Interesting. US media is showing bombed-out buildings and claiming that to be Israeli victory ...

In the meantime, Israelis themselves are saying they have been defeated.

faisaluno #15

`` even a strong supporter of hizbullah like myself could not have dared to imagine that hizbullah would be giving a bloody nose to the USraelis thirty days after being at the end of one of the heaviest bombing campaigns in modern history. i thought tops, hizbullah would last one week. and even that would have been a victory given the past performance of arab armies which had far greater resources at their disposal than hizbullah does. yet even today hizbullah has killed 25 USraeli soldiers and has fired more rockets than on any other day. and you have to remember that USraeli pm had stated couple of day after the start of campaign that half of hizbullah`s fighting capabilities had been destroyed. i think olmert is another one of those candidates who would make a good replacement for the saddam`s minister of information although olmert is still not in the same league as bush. ``

hezbollah is a pin prick. let us not forget if israel`s existence was at stake the response would be different.

next time please watch video tapes of American air raids on Hanoi. It has been more than 30 years. it will give you an idea of what air power can do.

`` i. hizbullah is run on modern scientific lines unlike the p.l.o or nasser`s army. ``

duh ?

`` ii. the organisation exists to protect the interest of its followers rather than to line the pockets of its senior leaders - a hallmark of most arab institutions ``

iii. meritocracy is observed all through the ranks rather than people being appointed on the basis of chithees - another trait common among modern arab institutions ``

there is no evidence nasser was corrupt.

hezbollah has not occupied single square inch of israeli territorry.

egyptian troops inflicted massive losses initially on the isrealis in 1973.

Zeemax (several posts),

This is a bit off the subject, but it is worth responding to your comments about Ahmadis.

You are misinformed about views and movement of Ahmadi-Muslims. You seem to be influenced by anti-Ahmadi propaganda, which is based upon lies and fabrication.

First, a few comments about the Ahmadi-Muslim community: Mirza Sahib, the community founder, claimed to be a prophet of God. Ahmadis fully believe in Allah and Quran, and hold Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in utmost regard. Furthermore, they do not subscribe to the violent and misguided ideology of jihad (propounded to ullema nowadays) and believe in practicing Islam in a peaceful manner and striving harmony between all people. They struggled for the cause of Pakistan and remain loyal to its people despite violent persecution at the hands of its mullahs and political machinery.

Views of Ahmadis have differed from mainstream ullema, who in turn have engaged in despicable propaganda and persecution of Ahmadis. Rumors have been spread about Ahmadis being British agends, Israeli agents, an international drug cartel, and so on.

Try to take a more balanced view of things and not to get blinded by hateful propaganda.

No wonder the world doesn`t take El Presidente too seriously.

He is sounding more and more like our own Tahmed2 in his hypocrisy and double-speak. The man who called the ``war on terrorism`` a Crusade has now coined the phrase ``Islamic Fascism.`` Now, this can be quite confusing:

1. Christian militants with huge crosses on their chests are called Crusaders and not Christian Fascists.
2. In Lebanon, the heavily armed, murderous Maronite militias were called Phalangists and not Christian Fascists.
3. In the Occupied West Bank and Gaza, the heavily armed, murderous, gun-toting Israelis were called ``settlers,`` and not Jewish Fascists.
4. The bomb-exploding terrorists in Northern Ireland and Britain were called IRA and not Catholic Fascists.
5. The Armageddon hopeful, rampant cheerleaders of Israeli bombings on Lebanese civilians are called ``Evangelists,`` and not Christian Fundamental Fascists.
6. The violent right-wing Hindutva rapists/murderers/arsonists of the BJP/RSS/VHP/JS/BD/SP/SS are called participants in the world`s largest democracy and not Hindu Fascists.
7. The terrorist LTTE in SL are called ``Tigers`` and not Hindu Fascists.
8. The cross burning Ku Klux Klan in the US are called ``hate-mongers,`` and not white Christian Fascists.
9. The land grabbing, native people killing, murderous Spaniards and Portuguese were called ``Explorers,`` and not Christian Fascists.
10. The land-grabbing, exclusivist, violent, well-financed and well-armed founders of Israel were called Zionists, and not Jewish Fascists.

#34

MalcomX was a Mirzai. So was Elijah Muhammad. So are the nation of Islam in the US. They are all Mirzais.

Ok, if I accept your definition, then these are NOT Muslims.

But, aren`t these the same people who are converting large sections of the black prison population in US to Islam from Christianity? Which in turn is making Islam the fastest growing religion in the US?

Echoboom screams at the top of his lungs about this all the time here....

Now, if you talk about `interpretation`, that interpretation is different between Sunnis and Shias, Shias and Ismailis, Ismailis and Khojas, Wahabis and DeoBandis, Hanfis and the rest and so forth. BUT, they are all Muslims. Noone denies or rejects the basic tenets.

Mirzais, however, are spies planted by the British who have for the most part been kicked out of Pakistan. Now their base is in London, and major operations are in Africa and USA. MalcomX was a Mirzai. So was Elijah Muhammad. So are the nation of Islam in the US. They are all Mirzais.

I think I didn`t satisfy your point re `interpretation`.

Here, you are wrong in thinking that mirzais are `interpreting` Islam. They are not. In fact they don`t have any religion at all. Mirza Ghulam Mohammad claimed to be a prophet in his later days. That threw the whole facade wide open. Earlier, he was talking of being a `mujaddid` and stuff. But later he came out in the open and formed some religion of his own at the instigation of the British, and then the Lahori party and so forth.

Mirzais are basically atheists.

Of-course one shouldn`t paint people with a wide brush. And of-course people should have the right to interpret religions as per their own understanding. But that`s not the purpose here in case of Mirzais. It is a `formal` and `organised` movement working against the interest of the state called Pakistan.

It is indeed a tragedy that some good people become targets in this confrontation ... but ``gandum mein ghun pissna` is collateral damage. You have just seen one thousand of these in Lebanon .. and the ones supporting those massacres, just check the interacts since 13/7/06.

Zeemax sahib,

Is it fair to taint all members of a community with the same brush. If it is OK for you to call Mirzais traitors, wouldn`t it be unfair to deny kaffirs the right to call all Muslims, terrorists. Being a Muslim living in a non-Muslim land, you should be more than anyone careful about stereotyping anyone.

I don`t know much about the ahmediya faith but don`t u think people should have the right to interpret religions as per their own understanding. Besides, shouldn`t people of all faiths and sects have equal rights as individuals and should states lable people on the basis of their beliefs.

Regards

#29 by majumdar

Okay Majumdar, I trust you. Just please don`t throw anything which I say back at my face which I say in trust.

Hindus are ok. Sikhs are fine. Parsis are wonderful. Muslims in India are my folks. Why should I have anything against them? Hindutvadis yes, because they have an agenda to march on Islamabad one day. But those are few, and insignificant, though they seem to be in majority on Chowk, putting the entire Hindu nation to shame. I`m India`s friend as you can see from my many interactions on these boards.

Mirzais are different. These are fifth columnists created during British rule to divide Indian Muslims. Later, these were carefully planted in all echelons of Pak administration after partition to sabotage the state, which they did do in many ways. Perhaps some other interactors will tell exactly how many mirazais were in the senior civil services of Pakistan right after its inception. I can safely say, a majority.

They pretend to be patriots but their agenda is to undermine the Pakistani state. Now, after having been declared undesirables and non-muslims, they have spread out around the world and spreading their own religion, which is not Islam, in the name of Islam. One of their major battlegrounds is the internet. 90% of the major Islamic sites you come across on the web are not Islamic at all, these are qadiani sites ... spreading misinformation about Hadees and stuff. I could quote you a hundred examples.

Thus, I said what I did. I know the qadiani movement inside-out.