On Tolerance

Naqshbandi #47,

``and yet go around commiting pogroms which would make adolf blush such
as in godhra``

In Godhra, 57 (or was it 59?) Hindu pilgrims in a train were roasted alive by a
fairly large number of Muslim hooligans. Is that the ``pogrom`` that would make
Adolf blush, or would this actually make him proud ?

Asif, you have time and again displayed a complete (and I do mean complete)
lack of understanding of social and political events and trends in India as well
as Pakistan. This is perhaps to be expected from someone who did not grow
up there. I assure you that most Indian Muslims (or Pakistanis) do not suffer from
the delusions of grandeur that you do, nor do they think of themselves as
dispossessed Mughals.

Asif,

I strongly feel that I should not have been on this article`s interact at all. I simply lack the tolerance for certain kind of muslims, regardless of their gender. I hate to admit that you fall in that category that I have a hard time to tolerate in anyway or shape.

[you seem to have a tendency to ridicule things to do with islam which don`t fall into your idea of what religion should be. ]

Ouch! And are you telling me ``dear scholarly theologist`` that your words and persona in some way magnifies those aspects that I have issues with ??? What a joke!

..I better stop here since being rough on the edges can make the situation worse.

!

zahraj... how do YOU know that i don`t know `what the hell i am saying` when i quote from scholars?
that`s a pretty judgmental and arrogant statement to make i think. sarcasm doesn`t suit you.
you seem to have a tendency to ridicule things to do with islam which don`t fall into your idea of what religion should be.

lasting tribute to apksiatn,

The bhumian budhas of afghanistan survived the jgengis khan, the ghouris and the gznavia, but it did not survivr taliban, the produvt of pak madrassas. It is the product of the uniquely pak contribution of TNT, a politaical ideology that brought out the worst of islam. There can be no future or peace for pakistan till the founder of TNT is consigned to that place in history, along with that funny mush man of europe.

Taliban is the lasting contribution of pak society and its madrassa system to man kind, and one should never forget the bhumian budhas, the sysbol of pak education system

Asif,

Next time please make sure that you only apply profound principles where they are applicable. Please avoid using mind boggling principles to overawe ``na-sumujh`` like me. I did not appeciate that!

Ya scholar! what is the % of well enlightened(I took out educated since there are many well educated nuts all around us) muslims to comprehend the rationales of the clan of scholarly theologians? Honestly speaking, sometimes your profundity sounds more like a sham than with any base and substance. I suggest going back to thy guru and request him to further enlighten you. Quoting thoughts from here and there and then not even realizing what the hell are you saying is pretty pathetic! May God hook you up with a shiite muslima who ends up being your life long teacher. Amen!!!

zahraj

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try reading and commenting on the substance of the post and don`t get stuck on a term: scholastic theologians is a translation of the term mutakkallameen. from ilm ul kalam the science of scholastic theology [kalam]...:-)

Ayesha,

My apologies for the digression, but i would like to post an email that`s worth reading and circulating.

Since this article focuses on Pakistanis....it`s indeed a great honor to find many Pakistanis who have done well in the communities they have lived in or considered their homes. Despite whatever and wherever they grew up, they have not cared to let that be an obstruction in their growth and further development. Intolerance also occurs when you have no other outlet in life to contribute and grow. There is no such society where everyone is 100% tolerant, but being Muslims you would hope that at least in a country of 97% or 96% whatever Muslims there will be some harmony. It`s indeed great to find Pakistani-Americans rising up and making themselves known to a much broader spectrum where both tolerant and intolerant exist - but tolerance prevails since there is value and accountability for human life.

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The Email:

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Pakistani American Congress welcomes the appointment of Mr. Hanif Akhtar as Member of the “President’s National Hire Veterans Committee” on January 14, 2004 is another feather in the hat “PAAG” of Pakistani- Americans Community.

Mr. Hanif Akhtar is a successful businessman and a respected Pakistan-American community leader from Vienna, Virginia, and also the Founding President of Pakistan American Business Association of Virginia.

Pakistani American Congress deems it a matter of genuine pride and honor for all Pakistani-American to witness fellow Pakistani-American receiving such a distinct honor and position in the current administration. President’s National Hire Veterans Committee is a resourceful and powerful committee and its members are picked from the cream of the crop / top guns from different walks of life.

Some of the other committee members appointed by the president are,

(1) The Honorable Donald H. Rumsfeld ,Secretary of Defense.

(2) Robert Lutz ,Chairman, GM. North America.

(3) Gordon Bethune, CEO OF Continental Airlines.

(4)Jackson Moore ,President Union Planters Bank.

(5) STEVEN REINEMUND,CEO PepsiCo. And so on .



There are total 15 members in the committee.

Mr. Hanif Akhtar will be sworn in during a solemn and dignified ceremony by the Secretary of Labor on February 19, 2004 at the Ministry of Labor in Washington, DC. Due to the participation of high level White House Dignitaries, only Close relatives are allowed to witness the occasion, for security reasons. Later in the afternoon, the committee will have open hearings in The Congressional Committee Room, where newly sworn in Members will deliver speeches and call the witnesses.

Year 2004 is a great year and “great moment” in the history of Pakistani Americans. Dr. Amanullah Khan from Dallas, Texas was the first one to receive such honor of Presidential advisory appointment. He pioneered the process that opens the doors for other fellow Pakistani Americans.

There is no such thing as “Great People” in the world, it’s the ordinary people who rise up to meet the “Great Challenges” and become role-models and heroes.

There are few other Pakistani-Americans who met the great challenges and have become our heroes and role models for us and our young generation.

1-Mr. Saghir Tahir elected First Pakistani American State Representative of the State of New Hampshire.

2-Mr. Mohammad Ali Chaudry got elected Fist Pakistan-American Mayor City Basking Ridge, State of New Jersey.

3-Mr. Nasim H. Ansari, First Pakistani-American Elected County Commissioner of Kalamazoo County, State of Michigan.

4- Mr. Masrur Javed Khan, First Pakistan / Muslim-American Elected Council Member of City of Houston, State of Texas.

These fine individuals are the torch bearers and role models for others specially our youth in their wings to follow suit. I urge upon fellow Pakistani-Americans to emulate the good example of these figures who have earned their public office and distinguished position by dint of sheer hard work, dedication, devotion to community service and by rising over above petty personal consideration, divide and egoistic attitude. I hope these fine individuals in their respective offices will set good example of excellence in public service and leadership for other to copy and follow. Their success in their respective offices & position will open up help open new vistas for our young generation to refine their skills and define their goals and sense of direction. PAC, urges Pakistani Americans to integrate themselves into mainstream America and to learn as well as be part of its political system and process.

America is undoubtedly the land of opportunities and there is no glass ceiling for talented, focused and determined people. It offers opportunities and chances to rise, serve and earn name and fame for yourself and for your country of origin. Now it is up to our promising and ambitious youngsters to grab the opportunities and excel in the bright future ahead.

The Executive Board members, Directors of Pakistani American congress and my family join me in extending warmest Congratulations and Bravo to Mr. Hanif Akhtar and his wonderful and supportive family for earning this distinct honor that makes Pakistan and Pakistani-American proud.

#44
Thanks a lot for the encouragement and putting an end to arguments. I really appreciate it.

#43
I was born in Pakistan. I am a Pakistani. I have lived here all my life and most unfortunately
I have seen some of its negative aspects very closely. So, since freedom of speech is a human
right, I have used it and I assure you, I don`t find much pleasure in saying bad things about
the majority of my own countrymen. But the truth is the truth. And you talk about hypocrisy. I
think I shall have to write another article on it. And I believe not revealing the truth and
hiding it from the world is a form of hypocrisy.
And regarding #42, I said pretty seriously...you know, it`s not such a bad thing to go to a
pyshciatrist for help...though there is a dearth of them in the place where we live...but anyway,
as for my suggesting a way to help, I could not think of anything better, especially since I
do not know the person personally and there was no apparent reason for his hating anyone...so
I think, seriously he should follow my advice.

#47
It`s amazing how people are paying so much attention to only the `Shia` part of the article...
try concentrating on the theme and other examples/opinions as well...as for whether anyone is a
disbeliever or not, I would still say that God has given no human being, the right to decide that,
and scholars should concentrate on other matters that are more important...
and you mentioned godhra...BJP engineered riots in Gujarat and mixed elections with religion...
the people involved should be condemned in everyway but at least the Indian media and the Supreme
Court and many common people had the courage to accept and say something against the government..
one purpose of my writing this article is that people here should look at their own faces in the
mirror first and then point fingers at others...

And, here comes Chowk`s Scholarly Theologist with his convoluted checklist...

[as for whether or not shias are within the fold of islam that is a debate for scholastic theologicians within islam and has been taking place for the past 1400 years. it is an intellectual debate on subtle points of islamic theology and doctrine... ]

Scholastic Theologians??? With due respect, what the hell is that ?

- Why do not the scholarly**2 theoligians share their mantra with the muslim world to bring it back to humanity forget about anything else???

- Since, these theologists must have male gender, why do not they look into the abnormalities in their gender???

Scholastic Theologies....Wow...We always learn something new from the scholarly beings :)

pakistanis are as tolerant/intolerant as any other nation and certainly more tolerant than those who complain the loudest about pakistani intolerance--read muslim intolerance (which is what they mean)--and yet go around commiting pogroms which would make adolf blush such as in godhra.

**
as for whether or not shias are within the fold of islam that is a debate for scholastic theologicians within islam and has been taking place for the past 1400 years. it is an intellectual debate on subtle points of islamic theology and doctrine...

**
for those interested in such discussions here is a sample:

Ithnaa Asharis? [upd.]

Q. i would like to ask you if Ithnaa Asharis are kaafirs? They do slander the Sahabah, the Umm-al -Moamineen and they do consider us kaafirs. They also do alot of Shirk like saying: `` Ya Ali``, ``Ya Hussain``,etc.
Calling out their names is not proof that they worship them together with Allah so it cannot be called shirk; nor do we have to reciprocate their takfir of us; nor does slander of the Sahaba entail kufr but only fisq, except qazf of `A`isha, which is kufr. However, some of the Shi`as are kafir according to the conditions detailed below.

The Ithna `Ashari (literally, ``Twelvers``) are the largest group of the Shi`a and are also called Imamis after their doctrine that their twelve Imams are immune from sin (ma`sum). The Shi`a are also known as Rawafid, or Rafidis, or Rafida, although strictly speaking the Rawafid are only one extreme group among them. However, if we should take Ruhullah Khomayni as an accurate representative of the Ithna `Asharis, it would seem that most of them today are actually Rafidis although they do not show it at all times, but Allah knows best.

Below is an answer from Imam Muhammad Ahmad Rida Khan Barelwi, given in his Fatawa al-Haramayn (Waqf Ikhlas offset reprint p. 10):


Question Three: What is the Status of the Rafadah?
Answer: The Rafidi, if he prefers Amir al-Mu`minin `Ali to the Two Shaykhs [Abu Bakr and `Umar] - Allah be well-pleased with all of them - is an innovator (mubtadi`) as stated in al-Khulasa, [al-Fatawa] al-Hindiyya and other books; but if he denies the validity of the Imamates of Abu Bakr and `Umar or the validity of the Imamate of one of the two, then the jurists (fuqaha`) declared him kafir while the theologians (mutakallimun) declared him an innovator - and the latter ruling is the more precautionary one. If he claims (1) to correct Allah Most High [i.e. in sending the Revelation to the Prophet rather than `Ali] or (2) that the existing Qur`an is defective or (3) that the Companions or anyone else altered it, or (4) that Amir al-Mu`minin [`Ali] or any other of the pure Imams is better than the Prophets in the sight of Allah - upon them all blessings and peace - as openly claimed by the Rafadah of our regions [India] and as stipulated in our time by their Mujtahid - he is definitely a kafir and the ruling that applies to him is that of apostates, as stated in al-Hindiyya quoting the Zahiriyya and in al-Hadiqa al-Nadiyya and others of the Fiqh books. We have enlarged upon this question in our epistle _al-Maqala al-Mufassira `an Ahkam al-Bid`a al-Mukaffira_.
from
http://www.abc.se/~m9783/fiqhi/fiqha_e94.html#4

Recoiling from reality,

It is notable that the tahmeds and ylhs have avoided this article like plague. Even acknowledging this article, written by a pakistani is unimaginable for the true pakistanis. All along for most pakistanis, the reaction to my posts have been `` have you ever been to pakistan`` and with out which how can you write about the values of pak society. At last here is an article, from a pakistani, who has gone through and experienced the k for kafir education. The ylhs studied in the elite schools have not experienced the corrosive pak system, now they do not even want to accept the truth from another pakistani.

I recall, YLHs reaction to hoodboy article, he simply dismissed it as exagerations. Now this article, no pakistani even wants to acknowledge it.

It would have been revealing if any other oakistani had posted thei own experience to confirm and reinforce the pak reality. Well that would not be in tune with pak traits, that of trying to white wash. May it is time that pakistanis accept that there is alimit to propaganda. The world knows the truth, edxposed to the world, the largest congregation of pakistanis outside pakistan is inh quantanamo .

MeAyesha

The person who wrote the following obviously thinks a lot -

``One thing is clear, people can make anything a cause for fighting, when they want to... I believe most of you on this interactive forum, don`t really care about Indo-Pak relations...it is people like us who suffer, who have to face the consequences of these seemingly harmless arguments... ``

Whatever Islam is, you do very good work. Please continue doing that and God bless you.

Ayesha:

Worth Raising Points...

[But do you support the people who say that Shiites are not Muslims?]

Please excuse my intolerance since I would not like to associate in any way or shape with such fellows who nurture the above derangement. I think a checklist should be developed to assess the ones who make such tall claims.

Regards,


Urstruly:
Great point on mothers. I will elaborate on that later.

#42:

I was wondering whether I should take the trouble of reading an article that begins with ``Why are Pakistanis so intolerant?`` (Doesn`t sound very tolerant!)

And then I read #42. Hmmm... I assume this is the author herself? If so, I for one would be suspicious before taking lessons in tolerance here. BTW, also read post #30. Seems to me like the poor man was not being offensive but simply explained something tat bothered him. A tolerant approach would be to gently probe further, and suggest a way in which that interactor`s conflict could be resolved or lessened.

But, yawwwwwnnn, kehne ki batain aur, karnay ki aur. Idealogical gupshup mubarak ho.

P.S. I WON`T read this article. Hypocrisy Inc.!? Not for moi.