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HP:
It is NOT a translation ..Of course it quotes the sources of the statistics..many from the revenue agencies. The record keeping was so thorough in the pre-British times that even some of the papers during the mayhem of 1857 are still there.
This, in spite of the fact, that the Britto Baboons set all the Libraries and Office-records of the Mughals in Dilli were set-afire & destroyed. Only the Khudaa Bux Library was in Tonk could be saved by moving it to Patna..where even this library alone is proving of immense value today.

MAULANA Bari was RED..the reddest you can ever imagine ( happy?). He was a MAULANA like Hasrat Mohani ( first President of the Communist Party)..He was a MALULANA like Ubaidullah Sindhi..a convert muslim..a communist to the core..friend of Lenin..part of new Russia..

All of them were FUNDAMENTALIST muslims as well. MJinnah had only TWO friends; Maulana Hasrat Mohani & Bahadur Yaar Jung. He was at ease in their company would drop his stern demeanor.

So please don't roil the waters by uttering inanities like:
"have not only read that book but many other on the subject including by some really serious people. I am not sure Bari Alig was a Maulanabut the Book was a translation of a book by some RED author"

Dilli ki ikk Shaam originally published in english at Oxford as Twilight in Dehli by Ahmad Ali. The very first piece of acclaimed "english" literature when Rushdick was not even a spermatozoa in his father's dick.

and the barb is always directed at the general situation in Pakistan..it has NOTHING whatever to do with the scholarship of those who are NOT BaBaBlacksheep.

#50 Posted by echoboom


"One book which has never ceased reprinting since 1943 is called " Kampnee kee hukoomat"..this is available at every book store..the authgor is Maulana Bari Alig..the Man behind"

Brother e mun,
Don't just assume that people have not read that book. I have not only read that book but many other on the subject including by some really serious people. I am not sure Bari Alig was a Maulana but the Book was a translation of a book by some RED author.
I have also read Intezaa'r Hussain's " Dilli jo eik shehr thhaa and also "Dilli ki ikk shaam".

You know some of us poor libaroon also know Urdu, Sindhi, Balochi and Persian. So please don't assume that only mullah has monopoly over Urdu language.

Bulleya:
Tragedies of Tragedies is that because of most of the Ba Ba Blacksheep are illiterates in Urdu ( and english as well ..mind you) they are unaware of a tresurehouse of work available..most of it is sitting in the libraries waiting for the nation to wake up..

One book which has never ceased reprinting since 1943 is called " Kampnee kee hukoomat"..this is available at every book store..the authgor is Maulana Bari Alig..the Man behind
Manto, his Mentor..the one who took Manto under his tutelage when Manto was just about to become a vagabond.

The other book which perhaps is available..at least I have a copy...in two volumes: " Angraiz kay Dushman Muslamaan"..by
Jaanbaaz Mirza..

Darrlymplle is excellent in his , white Mughals...but his Last Mughal is simply a copying of the work in Urdu...Even
His Djinns can easily be surpassed by Intezaa'r Hussain's " Dilli jo eik shehr thhaa" ( recent publication) and of course the masterpiece is "Dilli ki ikk shaam" ( Twilight in Dehli ( I wonder why the slaves of India love to write it as Delhi although it is Daihlee! or Dillee..Follywood syndrome I guess.. goray-kaa-goo-chaatnaa)...

" Naqsh-i-aakhir" by Ishtiaque Hussain Qureishi, in the 40's, is a great play incorporating the dialogue & superior culture of the times. He was a Karachi Univ. C & an education minister also.


blaah blaah blaah.

UNTIL & unless all work is done in Urdu & english is learned among other language as a FOREIGN language all the colonised nations will be ghulaaams forever.

China, Germany. Japan, Russia, France...and NO other nations, rich or poorest, never indulge in this Acquired ud SLAVERY Syndrome. [ASS]

Nations become , like individuals, rish or poor. This method of jusging nations on the basis of GNP & GDPs is not only damaging but fallacious. I am sure the pimp next door & the hooker down the block definitely must be having a great "G" Domestic Product 0r "G" national product. " "G" ofcourse stands for what Musharraf & AZiz type kanjarroons want to promote under their raushan-khayalee PulaaO scheme.

Muslim or Kaafir no one I hope consider, as yet, an honour to be kanjarrr..except of course the Ba Ba i Kanjaroon of CHOWK & his poodle

#46 bulleya, the indian politics was extremely fluid, with wildly shifting allegiances..even if the brits had "lost" the battle of dilli, there is no evidence to suggest a strong indian nation emerging out that. the only real possiblity was that of a british-indian nation, with some sense of law and order emerging and indeed it did as british-india with every prince getting a nice-new shiny coat-of-arms.

A good and engaging book on the subject is John Keay's "The Honourable Company: A History of the English East India Company". Very readable as the author's style of writing is simple and easy. Reads more like a novel though he never strays from the facts.

{" The three residencies in those days were, Calcutta, Madras and Awadh/Bombay (it is not clear). ... Our anscestors, were merely used as pawns, altough there was a period, when the power could have indeed slipped out of the brits. "}

Anil Bhai,
I think that you meant the three "presidencies," and yes, the third one was Bombay - Madras, Calcutta, and Bombay. Awadh, had a resident, but was nominally independent under Wajid Ali Shah and the succeeding Begums of Awadh.

You are right about our ancestors having been pawns. The issue is not one of British injustice or plunder, the issue is one of Indian leaders not caring about the independence and future of their country, their people, and eventually of themselves.

Internal strife is one thing, but sacrificing your independence to a foreigner for the mere pleasure of punishing your cousin is stupid. That is what our ancestors always did and Mushy is doing right now. :(

.....i have been reading quite a bit about south asian history, for the past few years....it is quite interesting to see the difference between what we are taught to believe, and what is the fact.....it is only now that real detailed factual history is coming out.....and that too, ironically, from non-south asian historians.....

take the 1857 mutiny (/independence war)......i was suprised to read, how close the brits were to losing......in fact, they should have lost.....and would have, had the sepoy had any officer leadership......

......the indian soldiers mutineed and all started ending up in delhi.....the brits tried a siege of delhi, and ended up there with a force of 4000 soldiers, sitting on a ridge outside delhi.......with 20,000 mutineer indian soldiers inside delhi.....

....the first two british generals commanding this force - general anson and general barnard - died due to cholera that had spread, within two months or so.....the third general who took over general reed, retired after two weeks of taking command.......

.......the fourth general wilson, (fourth general within three months) wrote the following letter to sir john lawrence in lahore:

"Confidential:

Sir,
I have consulted with Colonel Baird-Smith, the chief engineer of the force, and we hae both come to the conclusion that any attempt now to assault the city od Delhy must end in our defeat and disaster.

The force consists at present of 2200 Europeans and 1500 natives, a total of 3700 bayonets, while the insurgents are numberless, having been reinforced by the mutinous regimetns from every quarter. They are in a perfect state of preparation with strong defences and well are in a perfect state of preparation with strong defences and well equipped....The insurgents have attacked our positions twenty differnt times, and this day, they are out again making their twenty-frist attack. It is true, they have been invariably driven back, but we have lost a great many men in doing so in killed and wounded........

I candidly tell you that unless speedily reinforced this force will soon be so reduced by casualities and sicknessthat nothing will be left, but a retreat to Kurnaul. The disasters attending such an unfortunate proceeding, I cannot calculate.....

Yrs etc

Archdale Wilson

Salim Sahib:

From the old news items that Karl Marx wrote about East India Company. The three residencies in those days were, Calcutta, Madras and Awadh/Bombay (it is not clear). They just did not want the change that would have consolidated the power over them in the hands of Sir Charles Wood for another 20 years. The Manchester School, Marx mentions is all powerful textile robber barrons, who robbed Indias textile industry, and even got thumbs of Dacca weavers hands chopped off.

Afte 1857, that is exactly what happened, the residencies were directly reporting and were managed by the English legislature. Our anscestors, were merely used as pawns, altough there was a period, when the power could have indeed slipped out of the brits.

Mr. Gopalakrishnan,
Thank you for sharing this interesting yet tragic part of Indian history.
Whether it is the Arab conquest of Sind, the Afghan conquest of Delhi, the Mughal invasion of India, or the British plunder of India, we need to accept and learn from these mistakes of our ancestors. Thankfully, modern India has realized what happens when fratricide, appeasement of "superior" foreigners, and neglect of our own poor people by our selfish leaders are allowed for personal gain. Apparently, judging from the murders in NWFP and Islamabad, Mushy has decided to play the role of Mir Jafar and not that of Sirajuddaulah and Tipu Sultan.

imo its incorrect to think of indian textile making as indian "textile industry", specially during the period since the british got their firmans until Swadeshi mills were built. there was little industry..there were karkhanas of weavers who produced cloth and linen for the few big-shots but organised industry was not existant. to organize an industry, you need financing, create a supply chain of raw-materials and develop markets for your goods. an enterprenur class is needed to do these things. india had the labor and craftsman, but lacked the enterpernur class. the bania could provide financing but was highly insecure in all other apsects and therfore limited himself to apportunistic trades. the ashrafia nobility considered such activities below their dignity. the british made feeble attempts to organise weavers etc, but found the task of ensuring the supply chain and quality control (from expport perspective) daunting due to security and corruption situation...even in those days, they considered linen and silks from italy to be far superior and dependable.

regarding firmans..since the days of aurangjeb, the firmans were completely useless..no local afsar would honor them and deman his own fee. complaining to the king was useless..as they said in those days..dilli door ast.

regarding corruption, it was law of the land far before the english came, and king always demanded a personal bribe to conduct any bussiness (at least a token coin was required) and it percolated down to every level.

so while there may have been a few exemplary cotton fabrics from murshidabad or calicut, there was no "textile industry".

HP sahib:

I have been an avid student of that period. Just did not want to shame you, so quite politely published here, a simple news item that he had written, from my personal library.

Please listen, time is again to going to tell you about your analysis upon analysis, and your inabilty to reach conclusions and convictions.

That is about all HP Sahib, there is not need to get excited. BTW, my point is that Karl Marx is not God. I have not only researched him, have in my library. When I got sick of your and Massaddi Mian's naivete that I decided to put something real. If you have something real please bring out, or else don't talk the subject you know least about.

Anil,
I have said this earlier and would repeat this one final time. There are things that are way beyond your limited understanding and knowledge. I am not sure what you wanna prove by posting Marx's article but if you wanna learn what he really said about the East India Company, read the book he wrote after the 1857 mutiny.

Even after writing one of the better analysis of the mutiny, he had to eat a humble pie after a few of his assertions were proven wrong.
He later admitted his limited knowledge of the Indian affairs.

Babu anil,
If you don't have any thing intelligent to say, just stay the hell out of the discussion.

Massaddi Mian & HP Sahib:

Read below just a sample of what Karl Marx wrote about East India Company, three years before, the first war of independence in 1857. Please quit your senseless analysis upon analysis. I am publish here more my good old student days. Very little has changed, when the change must be brought into the society, be it Mohammad's Islam, of British East India Company or Iraq.

I had offered HP Sahib to buy dinner in San Francisco, if it is not Bhutto and Musharraff. Hopefully, if I prevail, HP Sahib, would learn something, that it is not analysis upon analysis. The same applies to Massaddi Mian.

Karl Marx wrote quite a bit on Indian Colonialism.

The East India Company ... Karl Marx saw

“…they shall still retain for themselves and their associates the privilege of plundering India for the space of 20 years.”

The Charter of the East India Company expires in 1854. Lord John Russell has given notice in the House of Commons, that the Government will be enabled to state, through Sir Charles Wood, their views respecting the future government of India, on the 3rd of June. A hint has been thrown out in some ministerial papers, in support of the already credited public rumour, that the Coalition1 have found the means of reducing even this colossal Indian question to almost Lilliputian dimensions. The Observer2 prepares the mind of the English people to undergo a new disenchantment.

Much less even than is supposed, will have to be done by my Lord Russell and Aberdeen.

The leading features of the proposed change appear to consist in two very small items. Firstly, the Board of Directotrs3 will be “refreshed” by additional members, appointed directly by the Crown, and even this new blood will be infused “sparingly at first.” The cure of the old directorial system is thus meant to be applied, so that the portion of blood now infused with “great caution” will have ample time to come to a standstill before another second infusion will be proceeded upon. Secondly, the union of Judge and of Exciseman in one and the same person, will be put an end to, and the judges shall be educated men. Does it not seem, on hearing such propositions, as if one were transported back into the earliest period of the Middle Ages, when the feudal lords began to be replaced as judges, by lawyers who were required, at any rate, to have a knowledge of reading and writing?

The “Sir Charles Wood”, who as President of the Board of Control,4 will bring forward this sensible piece of reform, is the same timber who, under the late Whig Administration, displayed such eminent capacities of mind, that the Coalition were at a dreadful loss what to do with him, till they hit upon the idea of making him over to India. Richard the Third offered a kingdom for a horse; - the Coalition offers an ass for a kingdom. Indeed, if the president official idiocy of an oligarchical government be the expression of what England can do now, the time of England’s ruling the world must have passed away.

On former occasions we have seen that the Coalition had invariably some fitting reason for postponing every, even the smaller measure. Now, with respect to India their postponing propensities are supported by public opinion of two worlds. The people of England and the people of India simultaneously demand the postponement of all the legislation on Indian affairs, until the voice of the natives shall have been heard, the necessary materials collected, the pending inquires completed. Petitions have already reached Downing Street, from the three Presidencies,5 deprecating precipitate legislation. The Manchester School have formed an “Indian Society,”6 which they will put immediately into motion, to get up public meetings in the metropolis and throughout the country, for the purpose of opposing any legislation on the subject for this session. Besides, two Parliamentary Committees are now sitting with a view to report respecting the state of affairs in the Indian Government. But this time the Coalition Ministry is inexorable. It will not wait for the publication of any Committee’s advice. It wants to legislate instantly and directly for 150 millions of people, and to legislate for 20 years at once. Sir Charles Wood is anxious to establish him claim as the modern Manu. Whence, of a sudden, this precipitate legislative rush of our “cautious” political valetudinarians?

They want to renew the old Indian Charter for a period of 20 years. They avail themselves of the eternal pretext of reform. Why? The English oligarchy have a presentiment of the approaching end of their days of glory, and they have a very justifiable desire to conclude such a treaty with English legislation, that even in the case of England’s escaping soon from their weak and rapacious hands, they shall still retain for themselves and their associates the privilege of plundering India for the space of 20 years.

Written on May 24, 1853
By Karl Marx

Published in the
New-York Daily Tribune
No. 3790, June 9, 1853
[Printed according to the text of the newspaper]

HP "Numbers from the 16th and 17th century don’t mean much. The agrarian economy dominated the world then."

Yes but the "value" in their meaning is that the world was almost equally developed unlike the haphazard "caucasian only" development we see today with the mitigating factor in between being colonization