Democracy, not terror, is the engine of political Islam

Re: # 252

"You say that Hinduism has monotheistic beliefs and name the supreme deity Brahma as a Hindu equivalent of God. If this is so simple, then why people still don’t accept it as monotheism when everyone knows that Hinduism is one of the oldest religions?"

That is because most of the people who believe in the semitic-abrahmic faith cannot accept the possibility monotheism co-existing with idolatory.

"If Vaishnavas don’t confront the outer evil and invade false systems, then the roots are to be found in the pagan belief itself which incites world-weariness in order to achieve spiritual elevation."

Vaishnavas certainly 'confront outer evil' but they do not go about killing those who do not believe in their 'truths'.
They certainly pray to the Lord Vishnu whenever there is invasion from people with evil Asuras or Rakshasa Prakriti (inclinations) who does send in his messenger (doot) or comes to the mortal world as Avatar in order to destroy those evil persons.
There is nothing "world - weariness" about achieving spiritual elevation as per idolator Hindu Shastras because apart from Sanyasa Dharma even through "Karma Yoga" and "Bhakti Yoga" one can live in the world and yet achieve the spiriual heights as a house holder (grihastha).

Re: # 253

Dear Raw Dust,

Would you please explain what you mean with this:

"This is the sacred Heart of Islam, if you will, in other words temporal-Nihilism in the cause of Eternal Goodness of Allah. Nazis had the same logic.

zahid-e-khushk is obligated to not make a moral judgment or else he will be committing Kuf'r/(unbelief in Allah)."

I've the impression that you've missed the previous exchanges between me and Laddu Sahib on this page. May I ask you to go through them?

laddu:
May I interject?
The "Will Of Allah" is insurmountable by human reason alone because Allah is the sole possessor of complete knowledge (Ilm-e-Ludni or some thing like that).

Therefore, it immediately follows that a cruel, immoral act is just one manifestation of Allah since Allah WILLS it. Due to human limitation of not having *cough* Ilm-e-Ludni *cough* and human beings being severely constrained on Time-Axis - human beings cannot causally see the overall GOODNESS in Allah's act. That only Allah CAN see because he has a 100% foresight, unlike humans.

This is the sacred Heart of Islam, if you will, in other words temporal-Nihilism in the cause of Eternal Goodness of Allah. Nazis had the same logic.

zahid-e-khushk is obligated to not make a moral judgment or else he will be committing Kuf'r/(unbelief in Allah). Unbelief in Allah is an unforgivable sin, he knows that. So, the more you drag this argument on the more you effectively drag him onto walk on Pul-e-Siraat (A hair-breadth wide rope stretched over the cauldron of Hell).

Re: # 250, 251

Dear Laddu Sahib,

The history of Aztec conquest by Christian conquistadors and the Aztec welcome of their own hangman based upon their scriptures substantiates that their faith was to be replaced by the Christian one. If that was not God’s plan then what?

World history is witness of Christian and Islamic expansion. They invaded countries and replaced the existing systems with theirs. The only substantial pagan expansion in the history was Hellenism which was but more about self-assertion and hardly about the spreading of the word of their gods. The question is unavoidable, why do the pagan systems lack an innate urge to spread and confront what a monotheist would call evil. The roots of that inactivity must lie in the perception of pagan beliefs.

An explanation could be the pervasiveness of truth in pagan beliefs. The pagan system is defocused because of the pervasive truth where Permatma/Brahma being everything or at least everything aspiring to be merging with him and one can not be in fight with oneself!

A detrimental blow to this focus is caused by a multitude of Brahma’s forms and of course the myriad power sharing gods who are literally worshipped by Hindus. These gods can not be compared with angels in monotheistic theologies where an angel is merely seen as God’s messenger and servant and certainly not as someone who shares power with God. And that’s why we don’t see angels’ idols in churches and mosques.

The monotheistic mind clearly differentiating between God and His creation with no way of any merger between them – leaving aside some Sufi schools of thought as has been explained by Daniel Berk in his article. The perception of one single truth contributes to the significance of that truth which needs to be spread if it is to be saved from the false systems which might engulf the monotheistic truth and that would be Satan’s victory. Whereas a Hindu or Buddhist may have some directions to make their daily lives better (kama, artha, and dharma) that all remains specific to the believer. The big picture misses here which is a fundamental part of the monotheistic beliefs and contributes immensely to the character building of the believer to confront evil. So, it’s not always the lust and greed that drives the monotheistic armies to invade but a completely different world view. That personal lust and greed of the believers give that merely a spurt.

If Vaishnavas don’t confront the outer evil and invade false systems, then the roots are to be found in the pagan belief itself which incites world-weariness in order to achieve spiritual elevation.

You say that Hinduism has monotheistic beliefs and name the supreme deity Brahma as a Hindu equivalent of God. If this is so simple, then why people still don’t accept it as monotheism when everyone knows that Hinduism is one of the oldest religions?

Re: # 249

"ou’re still mixing that innate urge to spread the Word of God with ‘criminal’ actions. "

You are not getting my point of view. What you call as "innate" is to me just a name calling/stereotyping and a "naturalistic fallacy" in order to justify what the victims idolators see as 'criminal' and genocidal actions perpeterated upon them in the name of Islam.

I reiterate that Hinduism have mono-theistic doctrines like in Vaishnaivism or Shaivism whenre the Vishnu or Shiva is like the Allah and rest of the deities are like the Angels subservient to Allah.

Vaishnaivism has the notion of a Baikuntha as well as Naraka ( Jannat and Jahannum) as well as an angel of death and angel (deva) who keeps the account of one's deeds.

But I am yet to see Vaishnavas killing and raping and looting in the present times if others do not accept the 'truths' of Vaishnaivism.

"A marked difference between Hinduism and Buddhism and monotheistic systems is that the former ones are preoccupied with self-abnegating world-weariness in order to achieve spiritual elevation and the latter ones perceive themselves as world-forming and that gives the believer a sense of responsibility toward spreading the Word of God."

Firstly, this notion of Hinduism being self-abnegating is FALSE- Hinduism is concerned with Dharma, Artha, Kama and Moksha in equal proportions and consider the fulfilment of these Chatus Purushartha as an important part of their divine duty.
A Hindu life is divided into 4 Ashramas or 4 . Just as study during Brahmacharya is important, the pursuit of Kama and Artha is equally important.
Remember that hindu idolators have specialized texts in Artha like the Artha Shastra or in Kama like the Kama Sutra. Hindu idolators are required to live their lives to the full within their professional calling enjoying the worldly pleasures.
It is only during the old age and during the Ashrama of sanyassa when people should withdraw and meditate on the formless Brahman in order to attain moksha or dissolution into that formless Brahman.
So, a normal hindu life is a life of 100 years (Shatam Sharada) which is divided into 4 parts and a human being is supposed to live his life to the full and then attain release in the later stages of life.

This impression about self-abnegation as the only defining part of hindu way of life is completely FALSE!!!

Re: # 245 and 246

Dear Laddu and KaalChakra Sahib,

The issue of predestination is present in both Christianity and Islam but Christianity’s believe that God works through history has shaped the Christian thought much more than the Islamic thought which stresses more upon the free will of man.

If we consider the conquest of Aztec kingdom (Mexico) by Spanish general Don Hernando Cortes then the unfolding of God’s plan and working of God through history as believed by Christianity and Islam becomes evident. The Aztec scriptures told them that someday white gods would come from the east across the water. Thus Cortes and his men entered the city, not only as guests, but also as gods coming home -- only to conquest it. So, the question arises what made those Aztec pagans maverick that they greeted their own hangman if not God’s plan?

You’re still mixing that innate urge to spread the Word of God with ‘criminal’ actions. Both Muslims and Christians subjugated the pagan systems, enrich themselves but not seeing in those campaigns that divine mission would be a folly. The theory tells us that one individual might fight in the way of God but still end up in the hell because of his malintentions. But that doesn’t make the self-sacrificing struggle in the name of God something inherently evil.

You’ve raised the issue of Occam’s Razor apparently only to make the Christian and Islamic thought look a ‘simple’ version of the truth which is probably to be found in the highly populous mythology of pagan systems with myriad characters communicating with each other making it a great puzzle to dig out the ‘truth’ from that cacophony. Now the principles of Occam and Fermat urge us to avoid redundancy which is totally contrary to the nature. Since God created this nature, it must be a reflection of how he thinks. As I said earlier, redundancy in a theory doesn’t increase its truth value.

You’ve talked about Kama, Krodha and Moha (greed, lust and anger) which you see in these monotheistic theologies and that according to your view have always been the driving force behind the spreading of the Word of God. But this view can only be maintained if one overlooks, for instance, the early history of Christianity which gives us a totally different picture with apostles travelling tirelessly and everywhere to bring the divine message to the people living with false beliefs – and without a sword! Christians were persecuted for their denial of the pagan beliefs but they remained resolute. Later when they gained power they also used it in order to spread the Word of God and confront the false systems. Muslims were undoubtedly more agile and confrontational in their earliest history than the Christians and that’s because of their concept of the holy war.

Monism and monotheism are quite different. A marked difference between Hinduism and Buddhism and monotheistic systems is that the former ones are preoccupied with self-abnegating world-weariness in order to achieve spiritual elevation and the latter ones perceive themselves as world-forming and that gives the believer a sense of responsibility toward spreading the Word of God.

Re: # 246

I do not think you are given the task of judging who is winning or losing in the arguments!

If you read carefully I am criticizing the justification provided to absolve criminal muslims for committing violence against my hindu pagan fore fathers by saying that "In this sense, those brutal invaders were also doing God’s work and the coming generations would profit from that work".

you do not understand it because you obviously are not a hindu idolator.

May be your most recent exchange with my friend zee (the evil Islamist) and hamidm bhai (the good man) might hint at why you (IMO) went wrong in abandoning ideas in favor of people.

laddu bhai

Zahid is speaking of basic religious ideas, and how they shape behavior. He fully understands that there will always be internal diversity, and that diversity is hardly relevant.

You were speaking of basic religious ideas too, until the fag end of # 245, when you suddenly switched to talking about 'criminal Islamists' and 'criminal Muslims' who are supposedly using the 'mask of Islam'.

I may be wrong but, IMHO, at this point, you have totally lost the debate.

Zahid Saheb,

Islam's Occam razor has been literally USED by muslims in order to let their basic animal instincts of greed, lust and anger ( Kama, Krodha and Moha) take control over themselves and justify their loot, rape and plunders.

There is a huge spiritual literature on Monotheism as well s Absolute Monism within tradition of Vedas (called Upanishads) as well as the folk literature like Kabir , Naath panthis and various ascetic Sadhu Sects within hindu tradition.

I am yet to see them use their monism and monotheism to justify their actions arising out of kaama , krodha and moha. Does that imply that they should also start killing and raping asking every one else to convert to their monotheistic faith?
Can we allow all those Sadhu sects to justify their depravities in the name of "tendencies of MONOTHEISM"??
Can we allow Vedantins to kill , rape and plunder because the rest of the world does not believe in their form of monotheism??
The answer is in negative.

Finally, to say that "In this sense, those brutal invaders were also doing God’s work and the coming generations would profit from that work" is based upon the the false theory of pre-destination that tries to blame God for every criminal act arising out of human depravity

This is evil form of Satanic Fatalism that is used as a mask by criminal Islamists to hide their evil intentions!!

It is time criminal muslims stop using the mask of Islam to hide and absolve themselves of their evil actions.

Re: # 242

Dear Laddu Sahib,

Your protest regarding the brutal conquest of the pagan India by Muslims is understandable. No honest enquirer would determine that the only trouble that these invaders had with the pagan India was India’s paganism and the denial of one God but personal and vested interests to enrich themselves. Certainly they were not in all cases driven solely by some divine call to end the denial of God by Hindus. That personal interest gave spurt to those campaigns. A look at the conquest of the Americas by Christian conquistadors lets us determine the same pattern. So, it substantiates the innate urge of these monotheistic beliefs to spread and subdue the false systems as these religions – driven by their unshakable belief in the oneness of the absolute truth, which is a direct consequence of the belief in the oneness of God -- inherently look disparagingly upon the pagan beliefs which are considered by them as a direct consequence of Satan’s incited waywardness. It wouldn’t be unwise to see in such brutal conquests besides grave sins the unfolding of God’s plan. Through such actions people could get to know the Word of God and eventually accept it. In this sense, those brutal invaders were also doing God’s work and the coming generations would profit from that work as we see that so many people in India and the Americas converted to the monotheistic belief.

You say , “Hindu idolator belief does NOT consider almighty to reveal ONCE to a special person that you call as prophet and then goes to sleep“.

This is the belief of Deism that God made the world like a clockmaker and then left it to run by itself. But this is for the monotheists a mere speculation. A fundamental belief of Monotheism is the belief in the Ruling God! God is not sleeping. He is awake and gives the history a direction which could, however, only be discerned on a greater time scale.

zahid: Monotheism has an innate urge to spread itself and subdue false systems.

laddu: Monotheism has no such innate urge.

What could be behind this dramatic difference? Could we be using the label of "monotheism" for two radically different (may be opposite?!) things?

If you have time and inclination, it might be useful to know what precisely monotheism is - not generally, but very specifically in relation to the rest of your two sesparate religious systems?

This seems like good work.

Re: # 239

"An important point is the limitation of the pagan beliefs to some regions and cultures. Why do such beliefs lack a universal message which is exactly the cause of the innate urge of the monotheistic beliefs to spread their all-encompassing system and subdue the false systems."

There is no 'lack of universal message' in pagan thoughts, the concept of following the golden rule is very much the basis of pagan moral values- no pagan considers stealing as acceptable or killing another pagan as alright or even committing adultery as alright- it is only an old Islamist propaganda that pagans were morally 'inferior' in order to justify their violence against them.
Ther is NOTHING INNATE in a montheistic religions desire!! IT is just a way to justify the fascistic tendencies within Islam that tries to absolve the depravity and criminality of muslims and transfers their culpability to MONTHEISTIC TENDENCIES!! IT is plain nonsense. Muslims commit crime and call it as a result of MONOTHEISM. That is why nirvikalpa and Brahman Sadhana is only prescribed for Sanyasins in hindu idolator thought because immature and greedy Bedouin minds can never undertake the Sadhana of a formless god.

"The concept of the oneness of God in monotheism leads to the unshakable and unwavering belief in the oneness of the truth whereas pagan depiction of one divine Parmatma taking different forms leads to an unnecessary redundancy and unavoidable confusion regarding truth."

There is no confusion. If the entire man kind is a manifestation of one adam and one eve then its million of progrnies as as 'true' as Adam and Eve themselves.
Hindu idolator scripture consider reality in its ultimate form as ONE. The concept of one Brahman as the 'Sat' is enshrined in Hindu idolator thought and is very prominent in the Aranyakas and Upanishad portions of the Vedas. These portion are supposed to be meditated upon by older people and sanyasis or renunciants. Upasana of formless Brahman is the most difficult of all the sadhanas and can easily lead to negationism and destructive tendencies if not done with a sense of 'tyaga' and 'vairagya'.


"That multiplicity of gods and goddesses or Parmatma’s forms makes his system of thought defocused making it certainly awfully difficult to decide which god, goddess or Parmatma’s form -- quite often at loggerheads -- is conveying the right message."

There is no confusion regarding 'message' which is contained in Vedas and Upanishads. These are straight forward message regarding manner of praying to the forces of nature (Surya, Varun, Agni, Prithivi etc.), psychological forces (Rta, Swaha, Swadha etc.) and other metaphysical Deities that control the different realms of metaphysical worlds (Brahma-Vishnu-Mahesha and their female Shaktis).

Hindu idolator belief does NOT consider almighty to reveal ONCE to a special person that you call as prophet and then goes to sleep, rather considers the possibility of direct communication with the divine to be possible for EVERY ONE with sufficient sadhana and faith. Infact, even Lord Shiva could be revealed to Ravana through his sadhana.
Infact , lord krishna revealed to a lot of muslim devotees like Ras Khan. This is very personal form of revelation that makes hindu idolator thought as a very personal, emotional spiritual practice to experience the divine almighty contrary to the set of Islamic propositions that were transcribed in cold logic and precision a thousand of years ago.