The Holiday Season

nasah #42

Of course, the ramayana is a mess of contradictions and strange claims. Rama is shown as a troubled king, one with many flaws - his murder of Bali is the best know example. You are an indian and close observer of indian society, you are probably aware that hindus themselves spend time debating these things publically.

So why is there this reluctance to accept that Abraham/Moses/Mohammed are troubled individuals, admirable from some perspectives, but nevertheless ugly in many others??? And that their inheritance includes violence and many negatives?

nasah writes "How primitive and aborrhent ...."

Primitive and abhorrent does not describe the supermarket when you go there to buy meat to eat. Ever visited the slaugheter house in America? That is what "primitive and barbaric" looks like. Primitive and barbaric is the meaningless slaughter of of the Bison by the white man to intimidate the natives, leading to its extinction nearly, primitive is not spending your money to ensure the poor get the same kind of food atleast this one season that you are used to year round. Nothing primitive either about the slaughter of animals for food nor in the method of slaughter that is more humane that the BS going on in American slaughter houses

nasah writes "'Sacrifice' my foot -- the mass murder of poor animals to make God happy -- is a practice of the 14th century barbarian morality -- that has also filtered in Islamist's Jihad as the homicide bombing"

Domesticated animals are raised for food purposes, there would be no "mass" of them were it not for their food value. Meat eating by humans goes back a lot longer than the 14th century dimwit and the practice of sacrificing your wealth to feed the poor, emulating Ibrahim after the Hajj season goes back a lot longer than even the 7th century. Linking that to the modern US war on terror BS about Islamic Jihad is the most outrageous stretch of dishonest propaganda that I have read here to date...

nasah writes "Who is a bigger insane?"

You are, the material you can "see" and "detect" forms a very small percent of the universe the rest, the larger part is the dark matter and dark energy that can only be postulated through logic and mathematics....now you get the picture fool?

#45 Nasah, #46 Tahir, #49 Einsteinwallah : Of course the great paradoxe of this great 'Creator'- Omniscient, Omnipresent, omnipotent & bla bla, bla... is that only Tahirs find it tricky to find him, especially when they call for him.

Simpletons have learnt to live without him come rain or highwater, since free thinkers (or atheists for E-wallah) like Buddha shown the way. They are also known to have been the most respectful of others opinion and ..life. Not even trying to contradict God suckers. Compare that with great faith callers - Abraham for Jews, Muslims, Christians,and also Manu for Hindu....,butchers. At least atheists take their social responsibility head on and no religious apologies. They don't kill because they don't want to be killed. They behave with compassion because they want to be treated with compassion as no God will come to help them.

Why not let us all become atheist? Anyone talking irrationality will be killed. He or she will be given 50 years to prove that he or she was actually being rational when in fact he or she was sounding crazy irrational. Children will be exempt. Age of majority will be 60 years. This is Rationalistic Atheism. Anyone wants to join this brand new religion I founded 10 minutes back? I need Coffee and Sugar into my system.

#47
Please also try and have other practices like Spanish bull-fighting, Japanese whale-killing, Thai cock-fighting and what not banned too!

It is the 'civilised' people's burden that they must try and understand those they label as 'barbaric' or 'uncivilsed' third-worlders.

The Alexander (the great, my foot) pagan homosexual kills thousands, that's okay; Genghis Khan (oooh,la..la) does the same, he's baaad!

Blackmail, black market, black sheep are white man's gift of convenient labels. Whatever he thinks is right cannot be right for the entire planet

Damn that sort of education, pin-striped suits and the thinking that oozes straight out from the laptops.

Re: # 39

"masadi: That is a lame bakra of an excuse you make for killing poor animals and calling it sacrifice, i.e. the excuse that you "sacrificed" your money to buy the poor animal. Understand this: you "spend", not "sacrifice", money to buy food!!"(tahmed)

you can say that again -- tahmed.

'Sacrifice' my foot -- the mass murder of poor animals to make God happy -- is a practice of the 14th century barbarian morality -- that has also filtered in Islamist's Jihad as the homicide bombing.

How primitive and aborrhent -- that you can please God by the cruel massacre of God's animals big and small in millions and millions years after years for centiuries.

It is no better than the pagan Americans -- killing millions of Turkeys for their barbaric thanksgiving day every year -- for no thanks to that the blind "Creator" -- who supposedly created America for the red Indians but gave it to the white Americans.

Both thankssgiving and Baqar-e Eid -- are by no means a "happy thanksgiving" or "Happy Eid" -- for the poor animals -- both should be banned in civilized countries as cruelities against animals.

#43
Profess your faith first brother. What are you? What is mine is clear from interact #25.

The perverted little Freud has been proven wrong; he peeped too often into his fly to weep at whatever little he was endowed with.

Science wants proof, rats, labs, and unsure fools. God wants to instill faith, asks for man's willful surrender, and treats this perishable world as an examination hall.

You cannot compare man-made with what's God made. Persoanl philosphies have led many to deny, rebel, and violate the needs of the fragile soul. Please stop being a religious hippy, that's all I can request you.

The faithless call their state of disbelief 'bliss'. Whether it is so, we'll soon find out. As long as materialism works, they don't need God, but when nothing helps, they beg him in secret.

Logic and pure reason is the hallmark of Greek thought which restricted itself to nation states; it could not see the universal picture. And when it was exported to our lands, it became neo-Platonism and then Sufism! God!

Our brilliant reason and logic dies with us, faith and good deeds survive. It is faithless science which, having fought with the church, teaches others to do the same. The problem is that those who see 'God is nohwere' written before them disregard the reality of seeing 'God is NOW HERE!' at the moment of death.

Did you come into being and then grow up to be a disbeliever by the logically reached conclusions of your parents? Look within yourslef, and gaze skywards to see who is at work. If you can't see the stamp, that's because you spent all your time reading men and not God's Word.

I'll be happy to send you and your friends references from the Qur'an. It is painfully apparent that Biblical character assassination is at work here, and which is shameful. God says, "peace be on Ibrahim" because 'he is exalted in this world and the Hereafter.'

Please be aware that you're being marked negatively for whatever you type here at InterAct.

Evil comes from man's own hands, good comes from God, says the Qur'an.

Peace little brother.

Re: # 43
"To achieve this, one needs to submit to the Creator and not to the created." (Regard sahib)

and btw with due regard -- who the hell is this unseen 'Creator' fellow?

at least the Hindus talk to something substantative -- even though inanimate but it exists -- made of clay, porcelain, metal or of straw that one can at least look at with even an insane monkey face or an elephant head!

To whom we Muslims, the Christians and the the Jews talk to -- insane empty space -- made of insane Higg's particles?

Who is a bigger insane?

"If this isnt insanity, I would like to know what is????"(Sharma Ji

How about an insane Ramayana?

Those of us who live in insane glass houses themselves should not......at other's insanities.

In this hammam of insane fairy tales....hindu muslime jew eesaaee/sub haiN paagal bhaiee bhaiee


Voh meree bekhoodee pay huNstay haiN
Maikaday maikashi pe huNstay haiN

Ref 25 Tahir: "Dreams come from two sources: God and Satan. The first category is for prophets and pious persons, the second for the weak-willed failthless ones. Only through God's guidance can mankind learn to differentiate. To achieve this, one needs to submit to the Creator and not to the created. The reward is life eternal! The rest is all loitering about in life's CHOWK.

CHOWK is read by impressionable minds who certainly don't need perverted athiestic views from unhappy faithless individuals who frequently stoop to cursing a way that leads to God."

Surprising to see that there are still 'minds' who get impressed by their own dreams. Please Tahir read any basic article on dreams, riddles fabricated by idling mind in the active phases of sleep from the memory bits.

Spirits tortured by religious cherabia for happiness and paradise are certainly unable to appreciate the atheistic bliss when the speculatory regime of religions is driven away by logically reached conclusions. The calm of Buddha and others who meditated logically was often interpreted as unhappiness.

tahmed writes "Understand this: you "spend", not "sacrifice", money to buy food!! "

No, you understand this, you "sacrifice" when you take out of things that you value and love to give them away to others in the way of Allah....You wouldn't understand this because in the worldview of your "gods", people are valued for how much can be extracted from them to fill the coffers of the elite and not the other way around...

Why is Shri Abraham disgusting? Well, lets review this fellows actions:

1) Ideological violence against his family traditions - in other words, one of the first extremists from history. This is in distinction to the use of self-defense in protecting oneself.

[quote]
Abraham's father, Terach was an idol-manufacturer. Once he had to travel, so he left Abraham to manage the shop. People would come in and ask to buy idols. Abraham would say, "How old are you?" The person would say, "Fifty," or "Sixty". Abraham would say, "Isn't it pathetic that a man of sixty wants to bow down to a one-day-old idol?" The man would feel ashamed and leave.

One time a woman came with a basket of bread. She said to Abraham, "Take this and offer it to the gods".

Abraham got up, took a hammer in his hand, broke all the idols to pieces, and then put the hammer in the hand of the biggest idol among them.

When his father came back and saw the broken idols, he was appalled. "Who did this?" he cried. "How can I hide anything from you?" replied Abraham calmly. "A woman came with a basket of bread and told me to offer it to them. I brought it in front of them, and each one said, "I'm going to eat first." Then the biggest one got up, took the hammer and broke all the others to pieces."

"What are you trying to pull on me?" asked Terach, "Do they have minds?"

Said Abraham: "Listen to what your own mouth is saying? They have no power at all! Why worship idols?"
[quote]

Notice how from the start one this fellow uses violence to prove that one way of thought is superior to another.

2) Delusional thinking that also involves the possibility of human sacrifice. In other words, the guy was really crazy !

[quote]
Some time after the birth of Isaac, Abraham was commanded by God to offer his son up as a sacrifice in the land of Moriah. The patriarch traveled three days until he came to the mount that God taught him. He commanded the servant to remain while he and Isaac proceeded alone to the mountain, Isaac carrying the wood upon which he would be sacrificed. Along the way, Isaac repeatedly asked Abraham where the animal for the burnt offering was. Abraham then replied that God would provide one. Just as Abraham was about to sacrifice his son, he was prevented by an angel, and given on that spot a ram which he sacrificed in place of his son. Thus it is said, "On the mountain the Lord provides." (Genesis 22) As a reward for his obedience he received another promise of a numerous seed and abundant prosperity (22). After this event, Abraham did not return to Hebron, Sarah's encampment, but instead went to Beersheba, Keturah's encampment, and it is to Beersheba that Abraham's servant brought Rebecca, Isaac's patrilineal parallel cousin who became his wife.

The near sacrifice of Isaac is one of the most challenging, and perhaps ethically troublesome, parts of the Bible. According to Josephus, Isaac was 25 years old at the time of the sacrifice or Akedah, while the Talmudic sages teach that Isaac was 37. In either case, Isaac was a fully grown man, old enough to prevent the elderly Abraham (who was 125 or 137 years old) from tying him up had he wanted to resist. The narrative now turns to Isaac. To his "only son" (22:2, 12) Abraham gave all he had, and dismissed his other sons, as Abraham himself had been dismissed by Terah after Terah had given his territory to Nahor.
[quote]

If this isnt insanity, I would like to know what is????

yar this is such stereotypical shyte..it preys on paki sterotype of amrican girls liquoring and getting knocked-up. is it any surprise if poor cabbie dads get into murderous rage over their daughters not wearing the hijab?

masadi: That is a lame bakra of an excuse you make for killing poor animals and calling it sacrifice, i.e. the excuse that you "sacrificed" your money to buy the poor animal. Understand this: you "spend", not "sacrifice", money to buy food!!

SR #37: I re-read as you said, and agree that it was pmishra, not you, who was calling sri Ibrahim jee "disgusting" (you were merely quoting him). So, cancel the appointment with the optometrist.

However, there is no basis for your saying that Ibrahim sahib was high on something vs merely being disingenuous as pmishra suggested. Because the truth is - no body really knows except Ibrahim and God (and the former is dead, and the Latter decided to quit interacting with mankind after he saw the mess muslims made of the message that he sent). Some people now think that the voices that Joan of Arc said she heard were symptoms of schizophrenia, e.g. And of course, there is always the chance that God did literally what Abrahamic religion followers have fervently believed happened (i.e. that he actually spoke from the heavens in a deep thunderous voice, or something like that).

Long story short - we dont know. So, why conjecture on whether he was sincere and high, or insincere and sober? There is an excellent article in the Washington Post today that deals most insightfully with this entire religion vs science crop (note that I didnt say crap) that is the staple on chowk for many people. So, let me end by quoting something that are sure to annoy atheists and religious fanatics alike: Can gradual evolutionary changes account for the complex structures of cells and the eye? Why is the fossil record so weak when it comes to major mutations? I have no idea. There are unsolved mysteries in Darwinian evolution. There is also no credible scientific alternative.

read the complete article (highly recommended) at the following link: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/20/AR2007122001866. html