World Bank Help For Pakistan’s Education – A Poisoned Chalice?

Re: # 88
publi...
Is it much different from Talibs?...they want to destroy modern education system, but will not hesitate to use FM Radio etc...which is not picked up straight from KoRun etc...

you said,"But all serious academics know that what matters is not how many papers are written but how good these papers are."i would like to augment this with the following;re;
dawn Sunday jan 18 2009 not an ideal goal you have said,"On the other hand logic and science are universal-everyone will agree that 2+2=4,or that water can be shown to be a composite of hydrogen and oxygen."with the above in view, i just want to illustrate something on similar lines which happened a number of years ago-at the BMSI located in karachi."two co-research workers i knew, post graduate students to be exact, were preparing to present their papers at an afternoon seminar, that week.one of them had found just the piece of scientific research work bibliography; a monograph, from the library.that piece supported precisely a point made in their research discussion.his partner rejected it.his objection was that he did not care for the person who had written the monograph.he belonged to an inferior caste that was reason enough for him to discard his work.he would rather that his own research work would make no impact as a result."
now we see more and more international diverse names in science and research, in topics which are bound to get interconnected in a greater way.does that mean some bias will cause a number of people to give up chunks of interconnected scientific facts and figures?irrespective of caste, color and creed some other non-biased people will take up this scientific information technology for their own benefit.good for them!

The majority of Muslims in Pakistan do not practice Islam. The ones that claim to be Muslims are closer to Hinduism and Sikhism and their values resemble those who live in the Indian sub-continent more then any other Muslims living in other parts of the world.
No intention of persuading anyone, just want to share my perspective.

Re: # 86
pro-musla...
Is it? Pakistan is home for persis, indians, buddhists...!!!
Gujrat is Gujrat....why it has to be like slave to arab beduinism like musla states of Pakiland? My question is, in what sense, Pakland is not an Islamic state? When a state declares the arab beduinism (Islam) as the guiding principle of the country, what can you say about such country?

Re: # 90
Hey, I never said that by rejecting an Islamic State, Pakistanis want a secular one. But I think on the whole, they are ready to settle for a democracy with a constitution that insists on calling Pakistan an Islamic Republic. It's a clever eye-wash, but my point is, in religious matters, most Pakistanis are more okay with eye-washes than the "real thing." The jihadis here, like tahir and co., will once again be left sucking on Saudi lemons.

All right prohuman thanks for answering my questions.

If I were to be completely frank with you I would have to say that I feel there may be an element of wishful thinking in what you have stated.

I suspect that most Pakistanis if given the bald choice between a secular state and an Islamic one would opt for an Islamic one any day. In fact secularism seems to be almost like a dirty word from what I have read.

Moreover my impression is that on issue like free speech for instance they are not ready yet to accept that people should have the freedom to criticize say the character of muhammad, or even to criticize some aspect of Islam( not as wrong interpretation but being wrong as such) etc.

However it appears from your post that you yourself may actually want them to be secular and pro free speech.

That I think is important for the future of Pakistan.

Re: # 88
Nope. A mejority of Pakistanis follow the Berelvi school of thought. Religion to them though exhibitionistic, remains non-political. They are not looking for an Islamic State, they're just looking for oppurtunities to hold their naats, quwallies, niazs, et al. The Saudi-backed Wahabi minority (that is always up for this elusive "Islamic State"), already thinks most Pakistanis are kafirs. This hasn't changed much in how the mejority think. So there is criticism of religion, but it's a criticism of what is the right Islam and what is not. Of course, nobody would want to know that they've been lied to about their religious history for 1400 years. Let them fight among themselves, I say. The synthasis can be positive.

prohuman, forgive me for pushing you on this but when you say

" I am convinced a mejority of Pakistan do not want the kind of an Islamic State offered by the likes of the Taleban, Jamat-e-Islami, etc"

doesn't that leave open the possibility that they do want an Islamic state as opposed to a secular one , just not the type wanted by Taliban and JuI ?

For instance would the majority want free and open criticism of Islam to be allowed in that state or would they want blasphemy laws etc?

Re: # 85
Yes, I am a Pakistani and I am convinced a mejority of Pakistan do not want the kind of an Islamic State offered by the likes of the Taleban, Jamat-e-Islami, etc. Why do you think the religious parties promising an Islamic State keep getting routed in the elections?

Re: # 83
Nkg,
Stop babbling incoherent paranoid Hindu nonsense. Pakistan is anything but an “Islamic State.� It’s merely a volatile feudal set-up trying to work itself as a democracy. It has 5 ethnicities, many Islamic sects, Christians, Hindus, Parsis, Budhists and Sikhs. Any attempt to impose an Islamic State will either be a farce (Zia-ul-Haq), or doomed to failure. All this talk about Islamic State is just nonsense.
There is as much “Islam� in Swat and FATA as there is “Hinduism� in Gujrat in India. Go fetch.

so prohuman may I assume that you are either a Pakistani or are in physical contact with Pakistanis and the majority of those don't want an Islamic state ?

Re: # 82
Media? Lol. No, sir, as far as the media is concerned we are already on the brink of some glorious Islamic Revolution. Trusting the media would be like saying "Amen" to all the cyber jihadis that seem to gather on this site. Astakhfarullah!

Re: # 77
tahir...
Pakistan is indeed an islamic state...what more islamic you want in pakistan...copying SWAT/NWFP model everywhere in Pakistan?...that may create large amount of diplomatic isolation, and the trouble is more and more people like roamair,hp etc...who are half human/half musla, will create trouble elsewhere. The way europe is facing now from migrant muslas, who love islam but do not like to live in islamic environment, i.e. islamic countries....
BTW, do you feel in this era, if pakistan follows islamic principles strictly (specialy barbarism like jihad etc...), people will sit on the fence watch this drama? don't feel that couple of pirated nukes can save you...
Afghans, under Talibs followed that. It had taken them nowhere and lot of people died out of starvation....

"Most Pakistanis are weary of the whole damn deal about the concept"

prohuman are you speaking from direct personal knowledge or are you relying on some other indirect source of knowledge(media etc) ?

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Q: By the way, what are the sources for your idiotic accusations?

Ans:

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310:
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88 Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65
Sahih Bukhari 7.18
Sahih Bukhari V.7, B62, N. 37
Sahih Bukhari 9.140
Sahih Bukhari 5.236.
Sahih Bukhari 5.234
Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 41, Number 4915, also Number 4916 and Number 4917
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 90
Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151
Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3311