Science and Enlightenment: East and West

Log on to www.baytunur.blogspot.com. One of the Islam Seminars, held annually in Lahore at Iqbal Academy Pakistan, was on Science of Islam.

The Heart of a Whore ...Re: # 114 T32 {"... Quran was written by scribes, not God ... Quran['s] ... "value added" ... individual responsibility to distinguish right from wrong ... I dont ... claim that the Quran is Edited by God ..."}

Thanks T2... thanks for making it (partially) clear. I use the parenthetical caveat because you brilliantly -- in your classic T2 style -- circumvented the core issue of belief, i.e., a faith in the divine origin of the 'content' of Quran. Did the content originate in the human mind or was there a 'supernatural' medium of information transfer from the divine? That was the core issue to which I alluded, and you very delicately danced around it.

You cleverly claim that scribes wrote the Quran, not God. This is 'lawyer speak'... You can pass the admissibility test of a secular Western trial judge as well as agrue your defence with some success before an inquisition held by a Taliban kazi.

It reminds me of the common tactic used by the go-go dancer who brushes past an engaging client, lightly stroking his cheek with her finger nails, but pretending not to have noticed his out stretched lips.

T2, you have the heart of a whore. I shall ask you no more.

...SR

SR #113 Thanks. While one can evolve one's views over time (and indeed that is a strength, not weakness!), in this case I dont see any conflict. It would be intellectually dishonest of me to not use my common sense and say that Quran was written by scribes, not God (and I have never claimed otherwise). And the scribe was not the prophet, but individuals having second hand knowledge of what the prophet relayed. And indeed, the Quran is as much the Hazrat Usman Version as the Bible is the King James version. Why I dont have a problem with the Quran though is that upon reading it carefully, I found it in fact reinforces rather than weakens my basic instincts concerning individual responsibility to tell the difference between right and wrong. So - just as the King James version of the Bible retains what is considered to be the "value added" by christianity to the earlier judaic believs (i.e. by promoting the concept of a loving God, and of the importance of love for other humans), so does the Quran retain the core "value added" by islam (i.e. the importance of individual responsibility to distinguish right from wrong, and the purpose God put created man).

Thus, while believing that the prophet did have a spiritual influence of some kind in the cave, and while believing that he carried out his duties as messenger faithfully, I dont need to be intellectually dishonest and claim that the Quran is Edited by God or any other such nonsense promoted by maulvis.

Re: # 108 T32 [" ... "religion" ... is ... a racket ... playing on human fears, emotions, superstitions. ... using common sense to put "Islam" in proper perspective.

... "religion" is riddled with internal inconsistencies ... even if one accepts that the prophet had had some kind of a relgious experience in the cave - God tuned out after that. So ... "learned men" ... who have authored ... traditions related to "Islam" are no more divinely-guided than Dr. Seuss..."]

Well said, T32... But now I am a bit confused. Wasn't it you who, in the past, insisted that the Quran was a divine book which the prophet merely recited after it had been narrated to him by a winged agent of the book's actual ghost author: namely, the Creator of the Universe Himself?

Did I miss something during the recent years? Did you evolve your beliefs and joined the heathens? There may be hope for you after all. Mohammad Hameed ji and Dr. Cheema ji better be quick and grab you into their camp before you fall under Urstruly's spell once again and join Mard-e-Mujahid Tahir ji on the front lines of Islamic Jihaad.

...SR

Re: # 47

bulleya

Btw, what do you mean by religion? Jews call Jesus as 'bastard' because he was born of the mother who was not married under the Judaic law. What would you call the Muslims who are the progeny of the parents not married under Islamic laws or not married at all, being born by slave mothers (and slave father, also, perhaps)?

Here a couplet from Ghalib comes to my mind:

"Ham mawaahid hein hamaara kesh he tarke rasoom
Ummatein jab mit geyin juzwe iimaan ho gayein"

I have been thinking about this couplet all my life but could not fathom it. It is perhaps talking of relation between culture and religion. You need religion to regulate sexual relationships but do you need religion to regulate traffic, which is no less important to our social life. The best treatise on this issue, in my view, is the Bhagwat Gita.

Re: # 104

Tahmed shaib:

I am happy for you, if you are concept of God is even beyond imagination. How would someone study, may be this concept is beyond study, and just acceptance.

Regarding sprituality, my point is that it is very personal. Even though there have been and are purveyors of sprituality to people at large. I do not believe in any of those purveyors, even if it is a book, messenger or guru. Since to me belief system delivers spiritual value to me, and hence there is no need to project it beyond myself. This was my point.

echotwit #109 on great public demand...or on great itch in your behind caused by my post??

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#107 Tehsin: This is how I have delinked "religion" (in my mind only, far be it for me to try and change the dearly held fears of my beloved fellow Pakistanis) as the only venue to pursue God (or indeed to make sense of anything) - treat what passes for "religion" for what it is, namely a racket to wield power and extort money by playing on human fears, emotions, superstitions. (as you obviously recognize). Then take a fresh look using common sense to put "Islam" in proper perspective.

Swat has been a wake up call for a lot of Pakistanis on the true nature of the mullah - although many are happy to simply proclaim the taliban to be US agents and go back to sleep.

The reason I think is because truth requires some courage to face - e.g. the truth is that "religion" is riddled with internal inconsistencies that people find much easier to swallow rather than critically and honestly try to resolve. And the truth is that even if one accepts that the prophet had had some kind of a relgious experience in the cave - God tuned out after that. So all the gazillions of "learned men" (who of course grew up thinking the world is flat) who have authored the various write-ups and traditions related to "Islam" are no more divinely-guided than Dr. Seuss.

I have been harping on this theme for 10 years on chowk, so I think I will give this a rest at this point.

The main issue then is how to delink religion as the only venue to pursue God. Most if not all think that if you don’t believe in religion then you must be an atheist. Far from it; philosophy has answered questions about metaphysics a lot better then any religion has. The fact that religions continue to be able to peddle their disinformation and allow the ayatollah or the pope exercise power over people is just because of the state of ignorance that their agents perpetuate. Philosophy as a discipline has been decimated in Muslim lands. There is not even a single decent department of philosophy at a Pakistani university which used to be there at the time of partition but onslaught of religion has continued to diminish them. More then that though is the absence of any Department of Classics, I don’t think there is even one in any university in Pakistan and I would be curious to know if there are any in another Muslim country. In the West though a Department of Classics continues to remain an essential pillar of a liberal arts education, because this is where all the moral basis and ethical standards for the society are established.

Tehsin #98 "God is beyond truth and thus beyond our ability to fathom HIM. "

we have the same concept here I think (see #104 below). That is why I say we leave God to playing God (rather than trying to bend His will by begging for small favors and offering bakras and chanda to mullahs as bribe to accompany the begging..I mean prayers). Better to have focus on the point we started with - what is in the broader interest of mankind (of which we are just a tiny, temporary part). And hopefully what is in the best interest of mankind wont be in conflict with God's business.

#100 Riaz sahib: true that crimes have been committed under more guises than that of God only. Right now of course, the enemy facing Pakistan fights in the name of God.

Anil sahib #102 I was merely exploring the concept of spirituality, not defining spirituality or religion for you or anyone else, let alone all.

Thus, I see that you think that God is the "best imagination of man". I happen to think that God is beyond imagination, and yes..this happens to be the concept provided in the Quran (and indeed in Mahabharata and in Taoism as well - "the Tao that can be named is not the true Tao").

Does it give me a stomach ache that your concept of God is limited to the imagination (best or otherwise) of man, while my concept goes beyond that? Not in the least bit, my friend. My what go? My father what go even? (as we say in urdu-english). :-)

Re: # 99

Echo sahib:

"...The journey is inside rather than outside ones self. The moment it is expressed & exhibited its mystique is gone..."

Very well said. Zen had put it slightly differently.

"Life is a journey, and the journey is the reward" I find it very satisfying.

Re: # 97

Tahmed sahib:

You like most are attempting to define sprituality for all. Please just define it for yourself, and derive inner peace, as I do. Those who peddled religion (by the book, or by sprituality) are projecting their subjecting view and interpretation onto others. I do not subscribe to this practice. I am very happy with my question (Is God the best imagination of man, or...., and my set of beliefa that come from this question.

I do not have to ponder if it must have been revealed, guided through a guru, or comes from one's own mind. The most important is what makes the "self" satisfied.

Re: # 99
echo, Einstein did struggle with doubt. So did many others, even Mother Teresa had doubts about the existence of God.
Here's an interesting piece I read by Deepak Chopra on this issue:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/deepak-chopra/einsteins-god-or-the-ho_b_61970.html
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide