Christians of Pakistan

To: Justin D'souza...
Islam is barbaric mediaval cult. It destrys human value system developed over centures, called civilisation. Some people call Islam "cancer" to humanity. Pakistan is no exception. The actual remedy of this problem is keeping moslems with large number of humans. It is like domesticating dog. Making the dog eat rice,biscuit...human food. If you allow the dog to live a life like stray street dog, it will again start consuming shit...I don't know why USA wanted to domesticae such a large number of animals, when they had the option of culling...
The same story as Copts in Egypt...The decendents of Pharaos, who had created Nile civilisation are migrating...and the country is turning into barbarism...
In India, moslems are little bit domesticated, specially in South India...

I think that the majority of a society should not impose their ``ways`` on the minorities. This goes for anyone, anywhere in this world. I am a Christian, and God said that He made them equal, man and woman. We are all created equal and anything that preaches against that is an abomination unto God. Eventhough Muslims, Hindoos, nor Sikhs believe in the God I serve, they are still my brothers and sisters. It is a fact, that you cannot force something down someones throat and expect them to conform to it. The Muslims and Hindoos tried that and that created Sikhism. They tried it again and it caused the India-Pakistan wars. The Catholics tried to do that and it caused the Crusades. As Christians we are expected to suffer for Christ`s sake. This means that we should already expect hard times wherever we step. Don`t fight back though, don`t complain. We know what the outcome is, the devil looses and God wins. So don`t complain. Don`t get me wrong, what the Muslims are doing is wrong but how great is it when we have the chance to die for the one who was sacrificed for us. If a Christian reads this remember one thing, God will never put more on you than you can bare. He knew you before you were born, He knows you better than you know yourself. For the Pakistani and Hindustani Christians, don`t worry, help, relief, and deliverance is on the way and it comes in the name of Jesus Christ.

To whom ever this may reach,

I love you,

God bless you and keep you.

Asim--

I don`t even know if you`ll ever read this, but anyway, I just wanted to thank you for a great article voicing concern over a very serious issue in our society. I have a Christian friend; we were in school together in 6th through (10th grades/classes) in Pakistan. Even at that young age, I remember her distress over the sometimes very obvious prejudice she had to face.

Yet another jewel in our crown for our tolerance, and amicablity towards Christians....

Regards

Asim

BBC News Service. Thursday, November 19, 1998 Published at

17:32 GMT



Christians `horrified` at Pakistan killings



A leading Pakistani bishop says the country`s Christian

community is horrified by the killing of a Christian

family. The killings, in the northern city of Nowshera,

have been linked to the apparent belief of some local

people that the head of the family practised spiritual

healing and magic.



Bishop Samuel Ezrayah: Fear of ethnic cleansing

But Bishop Samuel Ezrayah said the family were the victims

of religious discrimination, and that the killings were

the result of a fundamentalist attitude towards religion,

being encouraged by the Pakistan government. Police

investigations are continuing into the slaying of the nine-

member family, headed by retired sanitary worker John M

Sabir Bhatti. One of the dead was an eight-month-old

baby.Before the killers left the house, they daubed a

message in blood onone of the walls, reading: ``This is the

end of black magic``.



Son survived

Mr Sabir Bhatti used to dispense spiritual advice to both

Christians and Muslims and it seems he received his killers

in his consultation room. According to the police, he was

the first to die and the killers then went through the rest

of the house, looking for more victims. They had their

necks slit, before being beheaded. The bodies of the

victims have been sent for post- mortems. Mr Sabir Bhatti`s

son, Javed, survived the attack because he was not in the

house at the time. He said the family had no enmity with

anyone and the fact that three generations of his family

have been eliminated, he said, showed that there was no

government in Pakistan.Christian minority Christians make

about 4% of Pakistan`s population of 140 million people.

They are scattered all over the country, most living in the

province of Punjab. In February 1997, Muslim extremists

protesting against alleged desecration of the holy book,

the Koran, attacked a Christian village near Khanewal in

central Punjab, destroying homes and burning churches. But

local people say Nowshera has not seen any friction between

Muslims and Christians.

--

Peace.

Maulana Sahib,

With all the teaching of Islam you have`nt learned

much. In one of your responses you wrote this:



`` Reading the responses on this article brings a delicate question in my mind:

Do you know what the Christians of Pakistan claim on their Visa Applications for forieghn countries?

Ans: Political Asylum and that they are treated poorly in Pakistan. ``

There are alot of Educated Christains who have left Pakistan because people like you will never

learn. I wish the US and other countries let all

the christians immigrate so you can create a model

country.

I would love to see that model.

Thanks for the Article.

I have so much to say and write but I won`t

all I have to say is don`t scream for

religious discrimination and religious rights

here in North America.

What kind of Religious Freedom do you provide

to Minorities in Pakistan? If you don`t like

it go to Saudi Arabia.

Re: Thousands Demand Pakistan Blasphemy Law Be Repealed After Bishop`s Suicide


Religion: Cleric shot himself to protest death sentence imposed on
fellow Christian convicted of offense against Islam.
From Times Staff and Wire Reports

KHUSHPUR, Pakistan--Thousands of mourners Thursday demanded repeal
of a law that bans blasphemy against Islam, one day after a Roman
Catholic bishop killed himself to protest a death sentence against
a Christian convicted under the law.
Bishop John Joseph, 65, shot himself in the head Wednesday at the
courthouse in Punjab province where fellow Catholic Ayub Masih was
tried and sentenced to death April 27.
``We should not call it suicide,`` Lahore Archbishop Emmanuel Yousuf
Mani said. ``He sacrificed his life fighting against injustice.``
Masih, 25, remains in jail pending appeal. He was accused of
speaking favorably of Salman Rushdie, who has been in hiding since
Iranian religious leaders called for his death for his allegedly
blasphemous novel, ``The Satanic Verses.``
Several Christians have been sentenced to death previously, but all
convictions have been overturned by higher courts.
Joseph`s body was taken to his home village near Faisalabad in
preparation for burial today. Thousands in the predominantly
Christian village of Khushpur converged on the bishop`s home togrieve.
The United States on Thursday condemned Masih`s sentence and voiced
its regret over Joseph`s death.
``We deplore and condemn the imposition of a sentence of death on an
individual for the peaceful expression of his beliefs,`` State
Department spokesman James Foley said at a news briefing. ``In the
past, we have repeatedly called upon the government of Pakistan to
repeal the blasphemy law, which contributes to a climate of
religious intolerance. We take this opportunity to do so once
again.`` Foley added: ``We very much regret the needless death of BishopJoseph.``
In Los Angeles, visiting Church of Pakistan Bishop Samuel R.
Azariah called Joseph`s death the act of a martyr.
``We consider this death not as a suicide but as a martyrdom for a
specific cause,`` Azariah said.
``He sacrificed his life to protest the blasphemy law because the
legal system in Pakistan had driven him to a point of mental
torture. This was probably the only option left for him,`` said
Azariah, whose church is an amalgamation of Protestant denominations.

Re : Pakistani Police opened Fire on Christians

Following was just in......


May 8, 1998Correspondent ReportBy Ali ZaidiIslamabad

Introduction
Police in Pakistan opened fire on Christian protesters angered
over the suicide death of a Catholic bishop. At least three
people were injured. Bishop John Joseph shot himself dead to
protest the country`s blasphemy law, under which a Christian
man was sentenced to death last month. As Ali Zaidi reports from
Islamabad -- the U.S. State Department is again urging repeal of
the law, which critics say is used to persecute religious minorities.Text
Reports say some 2000 angry Christian protesters clashed with
police in the Pakistani city of Faisalabad Friday. Police
opened fire on the crowd after being hit by stones. Three people
were hospitalised for bullet wounds.
Those leading the march to Faisalabad allege they were provoked
by the police. The crowd had marched to Faisalabad, in Punjab
province, carrying the coffin of Catholic bishop John Joseph from
his hometown of Khushpur.
Bishop Joseph -- a leading human rights campaigner -- shot
himself in the head at a courthouse in the town of Sahiwal
Wednesday, after leading a march there to protest the blasphemy
conviction of a Christian man, Ayub Masih.
Mr. Masih was accused of defaming the Prophet Mohammad in an
argument with a Muslim neighbor. He remains in jail pending an appeal.
Bishop John Joseph`s funeral is to take place Sunday, but by
Friday morning nearly 10,000 mourners had arrived in Khushpur for
a memorial service attended by leading Pakistani human rights activists.
Scores of Muslim and Hindu mourners joined grieving Christians in
paying their last respects to the Roman Catholic bishop of the
city of Faisalabad.The mourners chanted anti-government slogans and called for
repeal of the controversial blasphemy law. Scuffles were also
reported in the bishop`s hometown when some people attempted to
prevent the bishop`s body from being moved to Faisalabad, where
he is to be buried.In a letter sent to a newspaper the day he commited suicide,
Bishop Joseph called on all Pakistanis to unite in the struggle
against the blasphemy law without worrying about the consequences.
Mourners arriving at the bishop`s wake vowed to continue his struggle.
Pakistani law requires a death sentence for anyone convicted of
blasphemy against Islam and other faiths. Critics say the law is
widely abused to vicitimise minorities in Pakistan and even to
settle personal scores. Christians make up less than two percent
of the country`s overwhelmingly Muslim population.
Prompted by Bishop Joseph`s suicide, U.S. State Department
spokesman James Foley said Thursday the United States ``deplores
and condemns the imposition of a sentence of death on an
individual for the peaceful expression of his beliefs.``
Mr. Foley urged the Pakistan government to repeal the blasphemy
law, saying it contributes to a climate of religious intolerance.
Since the law`s enactment in the 1980`s, several people belonging
to minority religions have been convicted for blasphemy. Human
rights groups in Pakistan say the evidence is usually sketchy and
the trial process biased against minorities.
Bishop Joseph said Mr. Masih was implicated falsely to force 15
Christian families to drop a local land dispute. He alleged the
judge had given twice as much weight to the testimony of the
single accuser because he was a muslim.
Pakistan`s minister for religious and minorities affairs -- Raja
Zafar-ul-Haq -- expressed grief at the death of Bishop Joseph,
but said the blasphemy law was not directed against any
particular religion or community. He said Ayub Masih and others
convicted under the law have a right of appeal.
No one convicted of blasphemy has yet been executed in Pakistan,
While many death sentences have been overturned by higher courts.
Lawyers representing those charged have been threatened and
attacked by mobs, and at least one person acquitted of the
blasphemy charge was later assassinated. (Signed) neb/az/kl
May 8, 1998 1:25 p.m. EDT (1725 UTC) nnnn Report 2-231912
Source - Voice of America

Re : Pakistan bishop in suicide over blasphemy charge

The following makes for disturbing reading, about the state of intolerance being at an all time high. The following is the Reuters Account of the incident!!!


02:59 a.m. May 07, 1998 Eastern - Reuters Limited

FAISALABAD, Pakistan, May 7 (Reuters) - A 67-year-old Pakistani
Roman Catholic bishop shot himself to death outside a court to
protest against a death sentence on a fellow Christian for
blasphemy, local officials said on Thursday.


Bishop John Joseph took his own life after leading a procession
to the sessions court of Sahiwal town in the central province of
Punjab where Ayub Masih, a Roman Catholic, was given the death
sentence for defaming the Muslim prophet Mohammad last month, the
officials said.


Joseph, in a letter to the Dawn newspaper published on Thursday,
urged fellow Christians, Moslems and minority groups to protest
against Pakistan`s blasphemy laws.


``...now we must act strongly in unity, Christians and Moslems,
in order not only to get this death sentence suspended but to get
(legal articles) 295 B and C repealed without worrying about the
sacrifices we shall have to offer,`` the letter said.


Sahiwal residents said there were brief disturbances in the town
after the bishop`s suicide but no fresh unrest was reported on
Thursday.


Masih was sentenced to death under Pakistani laws which outlaw
remarks offensive to the majority Moslem faith.


He was alleged to have made such remarks and was sentenced to
death in April. During his trial police arrested several people
with guns who were apparently plotting to kill him in court.


Joseph was well-known in Pakistan as a human rights activist. He
was elevated to Bishop of Faisalabad in 1984 and held a doctorate
in theology.


Pakistan`s blasphemy laws date to the martial law rule of General
Mohammad Zia-ul-Haq. Three other Christians were tried under the
act in 1992 and 1993 but fled abroad.

Nobody has yet been executed for blasphemy and Christian pressure
groups and some foreign governments have put discreet pressure on
Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif`s government to amend the act.

Synic

There is another more important dimension of anti-Christian discrimination besides our proverbial snobbery, even though Mr.Hayat`s article ignored it. At issue is the shabby treatment meted out to all religious minorities by the state, and by the majority people just because they follow another religion. This topic was discussed at length vis a vis anti-Ahmedi intolerance, and it`s relevant here too. This other aspect IS rooted in religion, and religion is to be blamed in part.

Re:Asim Hayat
Of course we are going to hang our heads in shame whenever someone talks to us about Pakistan. We are going to justify our running away from our problems by criticising our mother to the blue blazes. Since we have run away, we have to justify our own selves by saying that the problems back home are unsolvable. An all too familiar line of reasoning. It is us, the new generation, particularly the generation, the people who bring new ideas and modernity to our land who are going to steer Pakistan towards its true destiny. Of course there will be failings and false starts, but that is never a reason to abandon our land. What do you think those Kooain key maindak getting all starry eyed about raining dollars in the West are going to bring about a change? I am proud to be a Pakistani. Sure my country has a lot of failings, but I will do all in my power to make a difference. Chances are that I will fail, but I would rather go down fighting than run away!

Pakistan Zindabad!

Qadri sahib, the fact of the matter is that
if ever power lands in the hands of the maulanas
they will treat non-Muslims as second class
citizens, probably worse than they are now.
may be christians will be treated a bit better.
hindus (the few that are left) will be treated
as ``unclean`` . and the ahemadis will be target
of even more killings (as they`ll be declared
apostates). However, i`m interested in your
agenda... is it one of *all pakistanis * as
equal citizens? Or is it one of Muslims first
then everyone else?
- altaf

Mr.Qadri:
You never put any query about maltreatment of Christians. In fact you tried to evade the issue by digressing into irrelevant generalities. For reasons unknown to me you complained about ` a general sense of apology about being Muslim` in responses to Mr.Hayat`s article. In fact you seemed to have a problem with Asim Hayat`s writing the article in the first place. Why?

You say you are fighting for the rights of Christians. Do you advocate reinstitution of joint electorates? Will you fight to abolish the rules of evidence in the Shariat courts? Do you advocate the repeal of blasphemy laws? Do you think a Christian should have a right to be the President or Prime Minister of Pakistan? Let`s have your answers on the record.

You think the problem in Pakistan is that the clergy were not given enough freedom. I believe they were given too much of it, and power hungry governments shamelessly sought to appease the clergy for cheap suport. The clergy has brought us Hudood Ordinance, Shariat Bill and Shariat courts. The clergy spews vitriol from the pulpit every Friday that inspires ghazis to go kill Shias, Sunnis or Qadiyanis. The clergy, together with its religion, should be kept out of politics if not out of the country all together.

These ``maulanas`` that you named were in the business of launching ``takfeer`` salvos on their rival sects. Please do not sully the memory of an innocent Muslim or non-Muslim by lamenting his murder in the same breath as Jhangvi`s assassination.

I did not defend the maltreatment of pagans. I was just pointing out that pagans (mushrikoon) are called unclean (najas) by the Qur`an. This is just a small example of Islamic intolerance - the motivating force behind alot of bigotry in our society.

mni

Well spoken Farouq.

Indeed the maulana is trying to ``coerce`` us, for want of a better word, into putting our heads down in shame for having ``deserted`` our homeland. Except in your case and millions of others this is not a valid comment either, and yet they too feel about giving something back to this country for the sake of the fathers, and grandfathers.
I am not going to put my head down in shame about this accusation, as it is mere ploy to curtaiul the credibility of an opponent. I shall always walk tall in my personal beliefs, and only put my head down in shame when i am asked to talk about the state of affairs about my crying country.

About Foreign exchange flying in, all i can say is the conception as maulana sahib suggested was ``The Lord giveth, and he kept on giving..``.and it does not matter what the source is.

Incidentally on a lighter note, the expression about the Lord was used by Steve Martin in the eighties movie ``Roxanne`` when asked to speak about his Very long nose(from the french folklore) in an eloquent manner, and giving fifty reasons as to why he is not embarrased about it. .
And he indeed provided fifty good reasons why a long nose was immensely useful....

We need some lighter conversation here badly as well, and hence the above .

Regards

Asim

Altaf Bhimji says:
`The other reason [for maltreatment of Christians in Pakistan] lies in belief systems that look down at people of other religions as ``unclean`` or ``najis``.`

Chowkidar adds:
``The so-called `belief system` he talks about is not an Islamic value. It is truly an offshoot of the Hindu Culture and not Hindu Religion.``

The following may open these gentlemen`s eyes:
``O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs,
approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.`` [Al-baraa`ah: 28]

Insofar as our snobbery towards lower-class Christians is concerned, the poor man of any faith is a victim of this despicable behavior. But the plight of Pakistani Christians -and other religious minorities- goes beyond this triviality. It is about state-discrimination against them: denial of joint electorates, restricted rights in Shariat courts and most importantly, blasphemy laws that are inherently unfair, unjust and intolerant. And where the state stops, the citizens continue in form of taunts and abuses: sometimes subtle, sometimes defiant and blatant.

``And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of
Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away! `` (9:30)

Contrary to what the consensus seems to be, such intolerance is taught and legitimized by Islam. The Qur`an is replete with angry polemic and abusive language towards non-believers. The above are not words of tolerance. They are words of confrontation and hate.

Those of us educated in the Western system quickly learned the value of understanding and tolerance. These are not Christian values as Qadri sahib or Mr.Hoffman would have us believe, but the lessons from a long and painful awakenig to the fact that there is no rational basis for religion - anyone else`s or our own. Together with such awakening, comes a desire to synergize two contradicting ideals: rationality and religion. Efforts on this forum to paint Islam as a peaceful and tolerant religion stem from this confusion.

Now to Mr.Qadri who himself appends maulana in front of his name..
You said you are bleeding in Pakistan. Last time I checked the coffers of your Idara-Minhaj-ul-Quran were quite full, and you were drawing pretty big crowds in Rahmania Mosque on Tariq Road. The common man in Pakistan might be bleeding, but you sir, certainly are not. Contrary to what you think, most of us out here do hard work for a living. Whatever we make, we send a good chunk of it back home, into YOUR economy. Maybe we are not in the trenches, but we have done more for the country than mullahs or politicians. You happen to be both. So before you come out and give us a sermon on patriotism, stop eating those gulab jamuns and try doing something substantial.

MNI

Sallaam ailaikum

I want to first of all commend the author for taking the time to respond to the various accusations that such an article is bound to recieve. Your responses are well articulated, and the time you`ve taken to respond to them is well worth it... I have the following additional comments to a couple of things...

following was written by the author of the article.

``11. Well the view i had given is of the ignorant masses, of my country, who incorrectly assume because the christians are kafirs, then kafirs are wajib-ul-qatl. Arent they Mr Beruni ?``

Response: My understanding of wajib-ul-Qatl is that it does not include the ``people of the book`` i.e. Christians and Jews, infact it does not even include people of anyother religion, unless they are actively oppressing Muslims. In which case for defensive purposes one may pick up arms.

The people who many ulema consider to be wajib-ul-Qatl are the apostates; the earlier article points out how the Quran does not say anywhere that they are to be killed. I`d recommend a book co-authored by AbdulAziz Sachedina on human rights in different faith traditions, which goes into a little on the reasons for this rulling. Please note that i`m not justifying this, or saying that the apostates are wajib-ul-Qatal, merely saying how most ulema have justified it... -so please no flames towards me :) I do not believe in this rulling...

``Remember, you too will have to undergo an Ehtesab check on the final day of judgement. Learn to prepare for the wrath of Allah, as this is not the way ``HE`` would have wanted us the ignorant, ill educated, stubborn, bigoted, and moronic people of Pakistan to treat the rest of ``HIS`` creations.``

I completely aggree with you, and we have to be critical. We have spent so much time under dictatorships, where voicing of opinions were banned, that any dissenting voice is looked at with intense suspicion. We need to also take a critical look at religious leaders who are issuing edicts of ``wajib-ul-Qatls``. Unfortunately so many of the people have not read the Quran, and simply go by what the maulanas tell them to do.

altaf

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