Black and White

dear Shandana

I read in one of your posts that are u were willing to tell the story of how you and Arif met. How about letting me in on it. I just realized that I never did find out how this happened. you know my email address.

dear ms. minhas, i appear to have inadvertantly offended you. nothing i said was sarcasm. i was - in all honesty- curious as to why you write the way you write. and yes, we all feel guilt, and it is not neccesarily bad. a lot can come out of that guilt, dont you think? and that you make me feel guilty is a testament (as far as i am concerned) to the incredibly strong phrases you turn. and perhaps it is the truth that shocks me, but more so it is the brutality of your words, which often appear more burtal than the truth may be. i am not claiming that the truth is any more appetizing, of course, but your images force themselves on to my brain the way no news reports or factor analysis date could. you have taken qualitative research to the extreme, shall we say:). but whether you will admit it or not (and i say this at the risk of offending you once again), that you do have a great deal of shock value -- even if it may only reside in the fact that many are not willing to accept a pakistani woman as having emotions as strong as yours appear to be concerning the issues you write about. no, of course your neurosis (as you put it) shouldnt be shut away. making me feel guilty is a good thing -- it proves that you have the talent do arouse strong reactions your readers, and is that not often a writers aim? and yes, we may all be victims of the system but i wonder if we are all criminals, even if only because of our passivity. you see, men do cheat on their wives, and their wives are hurt and do cry. and most of us stand back and enjoy the show, whether it is being played out before us or appears in the form of evocative imagery in language such as yours. once again, because i do not check these pages very often, let me just state that you seem frightingly intelligent and possess an incredibly raw talent. good luck :).

Re: Bina & Shandana

Hear, Hear! What a civilized way to end an argument. I wish this world was like you both. What a wonderful world would that be. Alas!

However, I believe that looks, for both men and women, are important. By ``looks`` I mean how one carries him/herself. One does not have to be ``very good looking`` to ``look`` good. It is my own experience that by maintaining my physical self, I feel much better than I would if I carried a huge belly. (No, I`m not obsessed with my physical self. I don`t even exercise that much, but try to maintain my physical self, anyway, you know, that health conscious thing).

If one can find a balance between ``looks`` and ``knowledge,`` one should be very proud of him/herself. It`s an achievement. It appears that both of you have accomplished that.

OK, OK.

Shandana, I have clearly said some things which have hurt you or offended you. Believe me this was not my intention. To each his or her own. I am no angel; my life is filled with examples that can prove this to be true.

I apologize. And hereby end this thread, at least on my part.

bina,

accepted and reciprocated. i said a lot of offensive things which i regret, take back and eject the other way.my apologies for reacting so viciously.

we have too much in common to let these threads come inbetween.

shandana

OK, OK.

Shandana, I have clearly said some things which have hurt you or offended you. Believe me this was not my intention. To each his or her own. I am no angel; my life is filled with examples that can prove this to be true.

I apologize. And hereby end this thread, at least on my part.

Yes! That is me!
Trite, naked, and a 50 year old ostrich to boot!

bina,

there is practically no shandana the model. there is a shandana the writer and shandana the teacher, and that, if anything, is what i am known for so i have no idea why you`re continuing to harp on this.

``I wouldn`t like it if my mother-in-law want to dress us up to parade us, but I have to admit to feeling flattered when someone asks me to model. But though the former situation is a ``traditional`` one and the latter ``modern`` or ``unconventional``, I still stand by my assertion that the principle behind the two are the same. You could say, ``Well, I`ll dress up for my mummy`s guests but that`s because I want to``. And you could say,``I will model - but that`s because I want to``.

by your rationale we, as women, shouldn`t wax/shave/pluck, wear make-up, shower, dress nicely AT ALL (and i notice you make no distinction between the mother-in-law who gets happy to have a doll to show of, and the husband who gets excited) because that would be bowing to the expectations soceity has from us (even if we want to). having conveniently removed the element of choice from the equation, we should shun all self ornamentation, grooming etc and wear sackcloth and ashes to prove some obscure feminist point about appearance. since you`re a clotheshorse the moment you put on clothes, i assume you run around naked.


`i would like to see, in greater numbers, women being turned to for skills, expertise, talents and education`

that awfully enlightened of you bina, and here i was running around saying things like `forget about that saima chick, she wasn`t even good looking`. i myself would like to see women getting over the appearance hang-up, and am by no means a slave to it myself, as you continue to suggest. do you feel that just because some consider me attractive i should banish it to the depths of my closet so people will be better able to focus on my work? i must point out you are the only person who has had such an issue with it to date. and since the paper i write for functions out of lahore and the rest of my articles are emailed and faxed, the `attractive` element doesn`t even begin to remotely influence the way i am seen by the people who read and print my work.

`being told we are beautiful, that others think we are worth looking at for our attractiveness, it`s a potent drug, it comes packaged in many ways.`

this, along with the `life is a great teacher and time a great healer` comment from one of your earlier posts, is patronising and trite to an extreme. it is a potent drug only if you have no other skills or talents. i suggest what you are doing is reinforcing the stereotype that pretty women have no brains and are obsessed with their looks.

`assets baby..it`s all about assets..dont ever let anyone tell you otherwise`.

i shall keep that in mind. advice is a bad thing, except when it comes from one as experienced and worldly wise as yourself.next time my round the clock agent appears with possible bookings from milan and paris i shall tell him to ask for extra for my nose.

`this is not a personal attack, i have a double stake in wanting to make sure you understand that`.

i`m afraid i dont understand that. your implicit insistence that i have betrayed some vow i dont recall taking is disturbing to say the least. and opening up the tft this morning and reading the bit about far be it for `me to make` the `sweeping generalisations` of `my fellow tft hack shandana minhas` in your latest article for them only serves to add fuel to an idea beginning to smoulder in my mind.

As a matter of fact, I`ve got a halterneck shalwar kameez in my closet - but it`s not a Sonia design.

Sonia`s clothes are great, and you are an unconventional beauty, and those photos/the show were not your typical fashion shoot and show - but that wasn`t what I meant to debate (my insistence that this wasn`t a personal attack still stands - and Sonia being a friend of mine, I have a double stake in wanting to make sure that you understand that).

I guess I was trying to comment on the hazards we women face here in Pakistan. I wouldn`t like it if my mother-in-law want to dress us up to parade us, but I have to admit to feeling flattered when someone asks me to model. But though the former situation is a ``traditional`` one and the latter ``modern`` or ``unconventional``, I still stand by my assertion that the principle behind the two are the same. You could say, ``Well, I`ll dress up for my mummy`s guests but that`s because I want to``. And you could say, ``I will model - but that`s because I want to``.

But in both cases, we as women are still being turned to for ``beauty`` (no matter whose definition of beauty that is). I would like to see, in greater numbers, women being turned to for skills, talent, expertise, and education. I have so much respect for you as Shandana the writer and teacher... I can appreciate your looks as Shandana the model... but it is just not the same to me.

Being told we are beautiful, that others think we are worth looking at for our attractiveness - it`s a potent drug. It comes packaged in many different ways.

Sonia`s clothes are a testament to her strength as an innovative designer. But her summer collection had the clothes hung on iron mannequins. I was able to appreciate them much better, not being distracted by the models (and fuming about their political incorrectness :) Just an opinion.

(On the topic of features, remember Lauren Hutton`s gap teeth and Cindy Crawford`s mole? Or Kate Moss`s wonky teeth? Assets, baby...it`s all about assets. Don`t ever let anyone tell you otherwise!)

We shall leave the topic of ``sluts`` to another day.

bina,

i agree with your point that modelling to a large extent reduces women to sex objects and places great value on conventional ideas of what beauty is. i would ask you to look at the following info and tell me what you think
in those pictures i am wearing a halter necked shalwar kameez (even seen one of those before)an umbrella of fabric over pajamas, a `cape` kameez over a skirt, and a shift over pajamas. in those outfits sonia has challeneged the form of the shalwar kameez, laid the emphasis on fabric. the attention is not on the perfection of the female body, but on the way the woman carries herself. make-up is absolutely minimal, and i have extremely short hair dyed bright red. you`ve called me `beautiful` before and that was good to hear, but my features are not perfect, my nose has an acute angle in it, and i have a chin that goes from here to china, not to mention the fact that i`m slightly cross eyed :) but that was the point behind that shoot really, to challege conventional standards of beauty and say `confidence` will get you anywhere.
to me the issue is really one of control. i control my body.i decide what i want to wear when i want to wear it, and i dont survive on the strength of my looks.to me, there is a difference between a mother in law `telling` you what to wear and your `deciding` what you want to wear. to myself, i was being a part of what i felt was an exciting growth in the fashion industry, the work of a designer who does not toe the established line, who experiments and sends her models onto the ramp wearing glasses and carrying books.
and you brought up another interesting point, how models here tend to be viewed as `sluts`. ask them how they feel about it and they will say `its my body, you can think what you like but i`ll do what i like with it.`
women have been preening for ages before magazines were invented, i think it`s an essential part of being female.

Rishi:

Yes, modelling on its own can be a celebration of both clothes and beauty. And, given the orthodox elements in our country who would love to see our women veiled from head to toe, it can be seen as a brave protest against that rabid fundamnetalism. I admit I never thought of it that way. I suppose too that to make modelling ``acceptable`` - as in, a profession for serious career women, not ``sluts`` from ``bad homes`` - is a good goal.

What I don`t like about modelling is that it seems to be saying, ``value a woman for her beauty, her good skin, her lustrous hair, her fine figure, how good she looks in these clothes``. This is not a far cry, in my opinion, from the mother in law who wants to dress you up to show you off to her friends - it`s just that the people who control the pretty puppet have changed.

It is merely an extention of the patriarchal mindset that a woman is there to look good and be sexual. Why a pretty woman should sell clothes, be in advertisements with washing machines, or serve as ``hostesses`` (as they do in companies in Japan) - you can argue that the woman is achieving economic independence, earning money that way, yes - but the message is that a woman is valuable chiefly for how she looks.

If the clothes are made for a woman with ``not just a pretty face`` I`m waiting for the day when a fashion show has ugly, fat women as models.

On a related note, some of the worst and most sexist advertising I`ve seen has been from Pakistan and India (the slick Indian commercials are very Westernized but the women are sex objects, good housewives, and the like). I worry about what message this sends to a generation of girls who are considering career options. If the media portrays our values, then we are in trouble indeed.

And, as a woman, I can say that it IS nice to wear makeup, good clothes, jewelry, perfume - but too many people think you are not properly dressed without them, and too many women feel they must don these every day before they feel ``complete`` or can face the world. This is a huge burden sometimes.

Rishi:

Yes, modelling on its own can be a celebration of both clothes and beauty. And, given the orthodox elements in our country who would love to see our women veiled from head to toe, it can be seen as a brave protest against that rabid fundamnetalism. I admit I never thought of it that way. I suppose too that to make modelling ``acceptable`` - as in, a profession for serious career women, not ``sluts`` from ``bad homes`` - is a good goal.

What I don`t like about modelling is that it seems to be saying, ``value a woman for her beauty, her good skin, her lustrous hair, her fine figure, how good she looks in these clothes``. This is not a far cry, in my opinion, from the mother in law who wants to dress you up to show you off to her friends - it`s just that the people who control the pretty puppet have changed.

It is merely an extention of the patriarchal mindset that a woman is there to look good and be sexual. Why a pretty woman should sell clothes, be in advertisements with washing machines, or serve as ``hostesses`` (as they do in companies in Japan) - you can argue that the woman is achieving economic independence, earning money that way, yes - but the message is that a woman is valuable chiefly for how she looks.

If the clothes are made for a woman with ``not just a pretty face`` I`m waiting for the day when a fashion show has ugly, fat women as models.

On a related note, some of the worst and most sexist advertising I`ve seen has been from Pakistan and India (the slick Indian commercials are very Westernized but the women are sex objects, good housewives, and the like). I worry about what message this sends to a generation of girls who are considering career options. If the media portrays our values, then we are in trouble indeed.

And, as a woman, I can say that it IS nice to wear makeup, good clothes, jewelry, perfume - but too many people think you are not properly dressed without them, and too many women feel they must don these every day before they feel ``complete`` or can face the world. This is a huge burden sometimes.

bina,

once again, what exactly are you trying to say?

shandana

Re: Shandana

In my belief, good writing is a combination of both dedicated word formations and an inherent natural flow of thoughts. The balance needs to be maintained depending on the subject matter and the emotion we want to convey. A preponderence of the latter would make the article too mushy and a preponderence of the former would make the article too complex. Why do i always feel that the scales in your articles appear more tilted towards the former. Is it just me ?

Re: Bina.

Could not help but agree with most of what you say. ? However what could be wrong in Modelling ? even when it is done as an exhibition of beauty ? To me it is just an extention of reality .. That there are certain factors such as beauty, strength, intelligence , money etc that will always be favored ... In a country that appears to be increasingly fundamentalistic and where women`s rights are increasingly subjugated, is not modelling per se a defiant pro-women stand.

Rishi

I sense a splitting of a thread here.

Did not mean to launch a personal attack. I was just trying to reconcile your views on Pakistan`s social system, where mothers in law, prospective husbands and the like seek women out for their beauty (and you feel this is a bad thing, from what I understand), with your choice to model - which is a profession which values its employees only on the basis of their beauty, not brains or talent or anything else besides physical attractiveness.

You are of course free to write, model, teach, act, kickbox, skydive all at the same time, and so am I - but let`s call a spade a spade. Modelling as an industry is something which treats women as objects - beauty objects, sex objects, clotheshorse - you name it. A model is on the pages of a magazine or on a catwalk merely because of the way she looks. Not how she speaks, thinks, writes, works, or anything else.

Can you explain exactly how Sonia`s clothes show the ``empowerment of the woman``? I would tend to think that education, job opportunities, economic and political equality, access to health care, safety from violence and the like would empower women before clothes (though Sonia`s outfits are beautiful, no doubt. But clothes are clothes and access to a proper education...ah! now that`s true empowerment).

Finer, saner, more disciplined writers! Not sure that all three ever apply to good writing at the same time. Some of the best artists, creators, and writers were certifiably insane throughout history. However, I don`t think that writing about positive things necessarily consigns you to sticking your head in the sand and ignoring the bad either.

Keep your rough edges, they make you a far more interesting person than some of us smoothed-down, sanded-down, unresisting and unchallenging ostriches will ever be!

Dear Shandana,

Your work never ceases to amaze in one way or another. The literary quality (of which I`m no critic, but will venture to term excellent in my humble estimation) aside, ``Black and White`` paints as stark a picture of the harsh realities of life for a woman in Pakistan as one will find anywhere. Too stark, perhaps, for comfort. But thank you for the ``shock value`` in it. Your article hit with the appropriate effect of shocktherapy, pricked at the veneer of a complacent feminism that I had fashionably wrapped myself in, and demanded that I pay more than lip service to the cause of women`s rights here (...for a start, by thinking right). So, yours is definitely not a case of preaching to the `converted`. Few of us actually are.

Keep up the good work. It`s inspiring.

Patrick

P.S. big boss would be proud, don`t u think?!