India’s Failure of Imagination
Rohan Oberoi July 2, 1999
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#61 Posted by mihirsharma on August 11, 1999 5:27:34 pm
Just one factual point, that Im sure has been made and discussed already: the Siachen conflict, however idiotic it may be from a strategic point of view for India is NOT a violation of the Line of Control: any map- consider the UN official map at the URL http://www.un.org/Depts/dhl/maps/pk/unmogip.htm
will confirm that the LoC was only demarcated uptil the point NJ98420 , more than 50 km south of Siachen. Siachen`s status was never discussed.
Just one thing more: Kashmir has always enjoyed a cultural identity as distinct from that of West Punjab as the erstwhile East Pakistan: the valley`s presence in the Indian Union would be much better for its residents PROVIDED the centralized structure of the Union were changed sufficiently FOR ALL STATES. This would allow the people of J&K to maintain their pride in their culture - as distinct from religion - which would be otherwise trampled upon by arrogant Punjabi aristocrats on the one side and uppercaste Sanskritising bureaucrats on the other. Azadi for J&K may not be a viable option politically or be in the interest of the prople of J&K but it one option that would be the best for the rest of India: we would be forced to reexamine our excessively centralized and inefficient administration and devolve power as far as possible, which could only be for the better.
will confirm that the LoC was only demarcated uptil the point NJ98420 , more than 50 km south of Siachen. Siachen`s status was never discussed.
Just one thing more: Kashmir has always enjoyed a cultural identity as distinct from that of West Punjab as the erstwhile East Pakistan: the valley`s presence in the Indian Union would be much better for its residents PROVIDED the centralized structure of the Union were changed sufficiently FOR ALL STATES. This would allow the people of J&K to maintain their pride in their culture - as distinct from religion - which would be otherwise trampled upon by arrogant Punjabi aristocrats on the one side and uppercaste Sanskritising bureaucrats on the other. Azadi for J&K may not be a viable option politically or be in the interest of the prople of J&K but it one option that would be the best for the rest of India: we would be forced to reexamine our excessively centralized and inefficient administration and devolve power as far as possible, which could only be for the better.
#60 Posted by Studebaker on July 27, 1999 5:30:01 pm
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#59 Posted by Studebaker on July 27, 1999 5:30:01 pm
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#58 Posted by Studebaker on July 27, 1999 5:30:01 pm
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#57 Posted by OMAR1974 on July 27, 1999 5:30:01 pm
Onward to Delhi brave sons of Pakistan!
Feroz: The Russians plan was to to advance 18 miles/kms a day in the event of a war in Europe. We can at least advance 10 a day.
Omar
Feroz: The Russians plan was to to advance 18 miles/kms a day in the event of a war in Europe. We can at least advance 10 a day.
Omar
#56 Posted by ferozk on July 27, 1999 3:16:31 pm
Re: OMAR1974 # 57
Yeah, I would agree with you say about the economic pie and access to it, but contary to what you may think, that pie will only get bigger if we spend less on defence and stop planning for a war against India!
A blitzkreig towards New Delhi? Omar, we SERIOUSLY need to talk because, I really have to educate you in the art of operational maneuever. 300 kms in a month?! That averages to about 30 kms a day! That is not a blitzkreig, it is a blood bath!! In 30 days, Pakistan will have exhausted its war stocks, which only allows for combat operations for 45 days (in really optmistic conditions).
Omar, yaar, I hate to say this, but you need to devote more time to study of tactics and less time making outrageous claims!
P.S: I have started working on a plan, as an Israeli military planner, to attack Pakistani nuclear facilities. I have the framework already done and all I need now is to flesh out the details. I have fine tuned, from what I said in post, and when I am done, I will let you know!
As a challenge, I need you to pick the targets for me and tell me what my handicap will be: will it be a joint Israeli-American op, or just a solo Israeli op?
Yeah, I would agree with you say about the economic pie and access to it, but contary to what you may think, that pie will only get bigger if we spend less on defence and stop planning for a war against India!
A blitzkreig towards New Delhi? Omar, we SERIOUSLY need to talk because, I really have to educate you in the art of operational maneuever. 300 kms in a month?! That averages to about 30 kms a day! That is not a blitzkreig, it is a blood bath!! In 30 days, Pakistan will have exhausted its war stocks, which only allows for combat operations for 45 days (in really optmistic conditions).
Omar, yaar, I hate to say this, but you need to devote more time to study of tactics and less time making outrageous claims!
P.S: I have started working on a plan, as an Israeli military planner, to attack Pakistani nuclear facilities. I have the framework already done and all I need now is to flesh out the details. I have fine tuned, from what I said in post, and when I am done, I will let you know!
As a challenge, I need you to pick the targets for me and tell me what my handicap will be: will it be a joint Israeli-American op, or just a solo Israeli op?
#55 Posted by Truth on July 27, 1999 12:45:45 pm
Studebaker:
In your world, every failure represents the failure of all of India (for example the Gujarat text books). Every success (for example the Parsis) represents an individual success and is no credit to India. In my view, this does not reflect the reality of India. Indian secularism is more than a piece of paper. Pakistan`s primacy to Muslims is also more than a piece of paper. If you feel happy in comparing India to Pakistan with the purpose of running India down, go ahead.
In your world, every failure represents the failure of all of India (for example the Gujarat text books). Every success (for example the Parsis) represents an individual success and is no credit to India. In my view, this does not reflect the reality of India. Indian secularism is more than a piece of paper. Pakistan`s primacy to Muslims is also more than a piece of paper. If you feel happy in comparing India to Pakistan with the purpose of running India down, go ahead.
#54 Posted by OMAR1974 on July 26, 1999 7:01:40 pm
Feroz: I think you know what i think of mullah-islam well enough by now to know better than to mention them to me of all people. Sorry to hear about your family`s bad experiences but i really think that the only community that has really been victimized are the Ahmadis, because they want to claim to be muslims, yet are not, and therefore have been declared heretics. The Parsees, Hindus, Christians are generally A-OK in Pakistan with a few notable occasions when there have been incidents, incidents which were motivated by the greed and meanness of certain self-interested individuals to cause bad feelings and problems in Pakistan for ex. in villsage disputes over land with Christians trumped up allegations were made to make them leave by stating they had desecrated the Koran, said nonsense about the holy Prophet (PBUH) etc, really rubbish, with the threat of violence by inciting ignorant mullahs and illiterate fools into mobs. This is of course highly regretable. I hardly think you can blame Pakis for Zia, who after all was never elected to serve them but merely seized power. I might add that many muslims feel that Punjabis have far too much influence in the division of resources, get disproportionaly more of the economic pie, jobs etc. So, if its not one thing its another in Pakistan. Everyone has a gripe. Mohajirs loyalty too has been questioned, and this after all the sacrifices they made to build Pakistan. So, everyone wants to play the Jew in Auschwitz in 1943 in Pakistan. So what? Problems are there for everyone, and thanks to India, the economic pie is not getting any bigger. Instead of trying to split up the same pie, we need to make a bigger pie for all so everyone`s share increases. This is only possible after the Kashmir dispute has been resolved satisfactorily. It may require the occupation of New Delhi, which is where we should strike while India garrisons Srinagar and the rest of Kashmir with 50% of its army, leaving itself open to a blitzkrieg in the Punjab. Sack and occupy New Delhi, and Srinagar will fall into our laps like a ripe plum. Its about 300 miles. That should take about a month to reach with the right mentality. We just need to replace the
T-59s and we can get started within 5 years. With nuclear parity India is at our mercy.
Omar
T-59s and we can get started within 5 years. With nuclear parity India is at our mercy.
Omar
#53 Posted by ferozk on July 26, 1999 4:58:49 pm
Re: Studebaker #52
Omar has a point that Parsis, of all the minorities in Pakistan, have been the most successful in Pakistan, but that was mostly true prior to the Zia period. Since then, the paeans to Islamizations have steadly eroaded their rights and though they do not face open discrimination, they are often victims of subtle racisms based on religion.
It was due to these policies that a majority of highly educated Pakistani Parsis fled to Canada and Australia in the 1980s. The ones left behind were not as highly educated or well placed socially and hence, did not have the clout to combat the discriminating polices of the state. In many ways, the dispora of the Parsis was similar to what happened in Nazi Germany during the 1930s. The intelligensia got away before things turned awful and now these Parsis are supporting their families, still in Pakistan.
Parsis have served Pakistan well and yet, they are subjected to ``a second class`` citizenship status. To give you an example, James Marker who was Pakistan`s ambassador to the United States and the United Nations has never been offered the Ministry of Foreign Affairs even though he has been a career diplomat for Pakistan for over twenty years. James Marker recently won international acclaim when, as a Special Representive to the Secretary General, he mediated a truce in East Timor and presided over the modualities of holding an election there.
He has more experience of international diplomacy than all the current holders of authority in Pakistan and he has extensive personal contacts in Washington, Paris, and New York which he could use to improve Pakistan`s situation, but the name of the game in Pakistan is patronage and neopotism and he is not invited to the club!
On the legal front, Zorab Patel, another Parsi, was a determined advocate for human rights in Pakistan and because of this, he ran afoul of Zia-ul-Haq and had to leave Pakistan. Soon after leaving Pakistan, he was appointed to the International Court of Justice at Den Haag (The Haque), where he served for many years. In other case, one of my uncles was denied a chair on the Lahore High Court, in the late 1970s, even though he was the most qualified jurist on the bench, because the political climate was in favor of Muslim judges to implement Zia`s idea of a progressive modern Islamic state, i.e. Pakistan.
These are just some of the examples I can give of the double standards of Pakistan towards Parsis. This is even more resentful, because Pakistan is always eager to claim credit for their accomplishments, like Marker`s or Judge Patel`s, but is not willing to treat them as equals and still subjects them to many legal stipulations vis a vis minority rights. Yes, I am resentful, because I know how Pakistani Parsis feel about their country, but their country does not seem to recipocate that sentiment.
My cousin, a Parsi, was in the Pakistan Air Force and he fought in the 1971 war and he was one of the first PAF pilots to qualify for the F-16 and was a combat instructor pilot with the PAF for awhile. He was disgusted with the politics of Zia, because it was incipently questioning the loyalities of non-Muslim pilots of PAF and was destroying the unit cohesion of its squadrons.
Yes, I am resentful, because Pakistani policies of Islam et al discriminates against Parsis by not giving them the chance to demostrate their loyalities towards Pakistan! This is just not true of Parsis, but of Christians, and Hindus who are Pakistani citizens and who are treated as a second class citizens and then the state has the gall to question their sense of patriotism to Pakistan???
Re Omar # 55
Why? Maybe because I identify more with the humanist Parsi philosophy of tolerance than I do with the xenophobia of Islam, as it is practiced in Pakistan today.
Omar, I learned more about respect, and tolerance from my grandmother, who was a Parsi, than I ever did from any mullah. While the mullahs were teaching me about the evils of Jews and the other enemies of Islam, my grandmother was teaching me to think in another way. She taught me to think of God as a single author and to view the Qu`ran, the Gita, the Bible and the Torah as being merely translations of his work. According her, we may disagree on the translations of the work, but we were all agreement that that author was the same!
When was the last time you heard a mullah preach tolerance in Pakistan? If Islam and being Muslim in Pakistan are seen for what they really are, then there is no reason to claim that title, because it stands for nothing more than fear, ignorance and petty self-interests! Do you really think that I want to claim to be a Muslim and be identified with the Dark Ages in Pakistan and condone what my Muslims brothers are doing to the rest of their fellow citizens of Pakistan in the name of religion?
I do not think so!
Omar has a point that Parsis, of all the minorities in Pakistan, have been the most successful in Pakistan, but that was mostly true prior to the Zia period. Since then, the paeans to Islamizations have steadly eroaded their rights and though they do not face open discrimination, they are often victims of subtle racisms based on religion.
It was due to these policies that a majority of highly educated Pakistani Parsis fled to Canada and Australia in the 1980s. The ones left behind were not as highly educated or well placed socially and hence, did not have the clout to combat the discriminating polices of the state. In many ways, the dispora of the Parsis was similar to what happened in Nazi Germany during the 1930s. The intelligensia got away before things turned awful and now these Parsis are supporting their families, still in Pakistan.
Parsis have served Pakistan well and yet, they are subjected to ``a second class`` citizenship status. To give you an example, James Marker who was Pakistan`s ambassador to the United States and the United Nations has never been offered the Ministry of Foreign Affairs even though he has been a career diplomat for Pakistan for over twenty years. James Marker recently won international acclaim when, as a Special Representive to the Secretary General, he mediated a truce in East Timor and presided over the modualities of holding an election there.
He has more experience of international diplomacy than all the current holders of authority in Pakistan and he has extensive personal contacts in Washington, Paris, and New York which he could use to improve Pakistan`s situation, but the name of the game in Pakistan is patronage and neopotism and he is not invited to the club!
On the legal front, Zorab Patel, another Parsi, was a determined advocate for human rights in Pakistan and because of this, he ran afoul of Zia-ul-Haq and had to leave Pakistan. Soon after leaving Pakistan, he was appointed to the International Court of Justice at Den Haag (The Haque), where he served for many years. In other case, one of my uncles was denied a chair on the Lahore High Court, in the late 1970s, even though he was the most qualified jurist on the bench, because the political climate was in favor of Muslim judges to implement Zia`s idea of a progressive modern Islamic state, i.e. Pakistan.
These are just some of the examples I can give of the double standards of Pakistan towards Parsis. This is even more resentful, because Pakistan is always eager to claim credit for their accomplishments, like Marker`s or Judge Patel`s, but is not willing to treat them as equals and still subjects them to many legal stipulations vis a vis minority rights. Yes, I am resentful, because I know how Pakistani Parsis feel about their country, but their country does not seem to recipocate that sentiment.
My cousin, a Parsi, was in the Pakistan Air Force and he fought in the 1971 war and he was one of the first PAF pilots to qualify for the F-16 and was a combat instructor pilot with the PAF for awhile. He was disgusted with the politics of Zia, because it was incipently questioning the loyalities of non-Muslim pilots of PAF and was destroying the unit cohesion of its squadrons.
Yes, I am resentful, because Pakistani policies of Islam et al discriminates against Parsis by not giving them the chance to demostrate their loyalities towards Pakistan! This is just not true of Parsis, but of Christians, and Hindus who are Pakistani citizens and who are treated as a second class citizens and then the state has the gall to question their sense of patriotism to Pakistan???
Re Omar # 55
Why? Maybe because I identify more with the humanist Parsi philosophy of tolerance than I do with the xenophobia of Islam, as it is practiced in Pakistan today.
Omar, I learned more about respect, and tolerance from my grandmother, who was a Parsi, than I ever did from any mullah. While the mullahs were teaching me about the evils of Jews and the other enemies of Islam, my grandmother was teaching me to think in another way. She taught me to think of God as a single author and to view the Qu`ran, the Gita, the Bible and the Torah as being merely translations of his work. According her, we may disagree on the translations of the work, but we were all agreement that that author was the same!
When was the last time you heard a mullah preach tolerance in Pakistan? If Islam and being Muslim in Pakistan are seen for what they really are, then there is no reason to claim that title, because it stands for nothing more than fear, ignorance and petty self-interests! Do you really think that I want to claim to be a Muslim and be identified with the Dark Ages in Pakistan and condone what my Muslims brothers are doing to the rest of their fellow citizens of Pakistan in the name of religion?
I do not think so!
#52 Posted by OMAR1974 on July 26, 1999 12:21:44 pm
Feroz, yaar, how come you always mention that you are half Parsi, instead of saying that you are half muslim? :) Isin`t it the same thing? :) (Something to ponder)
cheers
Omar
cheers
Omar
#51 Posted by Studebaker on July 25, 1999 7:19:54 am
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#50 Posted by Studebaker on July 24, 1999 6:49:33 am
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#49 Posted by Studebaker on July 24, 1999 6:49:33 am
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#48 Posted by OMAR1974 on July 23, 1999 1:39:29 am
Maharaj:
The Kashmiri minority will have the same choice as everyone did in 1947; stay or leave. This is only logical since Kashmir represents the last unfinished business from the partition era. If they want to be Paki citizens, they are welcome to stay. If they don`t, they are welcome to leave. State coercion however, should not be a factor to be tolerated in this matter. As for being `second class` citizens, quite frankly i think the Parsi community is an excellent example of those who have done quite well in Pakistan. Mr.Ardashir Cawasjee is a well known/respected journalist cum public figure whom i for one deeply admire for his efforts to get the truth out about the rape of Pakistan by its ruling classes. There are over a million Hindus in pakistan today. We don`t have Hindu-Muslim religious conflict, although we have other sectarian and inter muslim religious conflict in Pakistan.
Omar
The Kashmiri minority will have the same choice as everyone did in 1947; stay or leave. This is only logical since Kashmir represents the last unfinished business from the partition era. If they want to be Paki citizens, they are welcome to stay. If they don`t, they are welcome to leave. State coercion however, should not be a factor to be tolerated in this matter. As for being `second class` citizens, quite frankly i think the Parsi community is an excellent example of those who have done quite well in Pakistan. Mr.Ardashir Cawasjee is a well known/respected journalist cum public figure whom i for one deeply admire for his efforts to get the truth out about the rape of Pakistan by its ruling classes. There are over a million Hindus in pakistan today. We don`t have Hindu-Muslim religious conflict, although we have other sectarian and inter muslim religious conflict in Pakistan.
Omar
#47 Posted by ferozk on July 22, 1999 5:48:40 pm
re: Maharaj comment`s Omar
We all know what would happen to them based on what is the present fate of minorities in Pakistan. Being a half Parsi myself, and having friends who are Parsis, I can fully understand the term ``second class`` citizens and that is what they will become if they join Pakistan.
We all know what would happen to them based on what is the present fate of minorities in Pakistan. Being a half Parsi myself, and having friends who are Parsis, I can fully understand the term ``second class`` citizens and that is what they will become if they join Pakistan.
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