Lahore Diaries III

Sorry to interject.

Couldnt help noticing the irony that this peice evoked such bile-ridden comments, simplistic notions and dreary statistics instead of more positive ideas.

There, you have my 5 cents worth as well.

Dear Chowkwallas:

I agree with the main thrust of Jay`s argument (Reply # 81). I think, Pakistan needs to learn from the Indian experience. While India invested heavily in industry and the education of promising scientists and scholars within a democratic environment, Pakistan spent a lot of its hard earned foreign exchange for importing a fictitious American way of life and for the production and reproduction of an authoritarian political-military machine. Pakistanis love to consume, unfortunately they don`t care much about production. Production and consumption are two sides of the economic coin. Is this lesson too hard to understand?

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

To AD,

Dont lose heart, things are not that bad in india. Last year the savings were 20% of the GDP, investments another 24%. Education is flourishing, computer industry is booming. It is ideal for the hindu way of thinking, programming is a menial job, in a high caste drab and the indians are loving it. The real problem and the short fall is in getting good trades men, a good plumber and a car smash repairer. A trdes man who takes pride in his work.

In the closed windowcentric world of IT, one forgets the view beyond the frame. Exports are not important for any country, US exports account for less than 10% of its GDP, it is the domestic consumption, whether people have food, clothing and shelter that counts. Exports will not provide that, nor foreign investment.

Think of our neighbour, pakistan. The finance minister is groveling to IMF for a paltry sum of 250 million dollars, which is very small compared to the pak GDP. But the country needs foreign exchange, to keep the imported cars on the road, to support the life style of the rich. The minister, elected representative of the people of pakistan is pleading with a couple of UK capitalist, not to invoke the sovereign guarentee of 400 million by Hubco. Theses are the consequences of open door, importing the best in the world, the cost of not driving the `Ambassador` car. There are lots you have to thank Nehru for.

Re AD #: 79



[ I guess I did not elaborate myself enough.]

No. You just refused to address my analysis of exactly what revenues one can expect to get providing Internet services for e-commerce.

[When I said information, I meant the whole industry and infrastructure that sorrounds it. That inculdes developing software which enables flow of information such as databases; provide security solutions/ encrption technology; develop advanced algorithims that enable enhanced computational capability.]

With regard to databases, you already have Oracle controlling the marketplace. A host of companies such as RSA provide security through encryption software. You can even get encryption through shareware such as PGP (Pretty Good Privacy). So, what is it you expect Indians to do? If you say ``making it all work``, we are back to IT laborers.

[That includes other spin offs, in the world of smart devices such as microwaves, tvs, fridges, etc. Mind you, I am not advocating that we make these. Rather, we provide the brains that make these devices intelligent. And that brain is implemented via software, not hardware. (The so called Jini devices that SUN Microsystems is trying to develop, where all these devices are connected to the Internet so that you can turn on your air-conditioner from work, so that when you walk in home, its nice and cool.)]

What would be the value-add of these software? If you think you can get a royalty of 3% (maximum for royalty payments) per appliance sold, then 33 appliances must be sold in the rest of the world so that India can afford to buy 1. Let me assure you, there is no way any appliance manufacturer is going to agree to royalty payments when he can afford to hire a Java programmer for $100K a year and get his appliance programmed. And, in case you haven’t seen one, a $100 thermostat can turn your air conditioner on at 4pm so that your house is cool when you get back from work -- without being connected to the internet, without being programmed in JINI. It uses a little timer circuit to do that and that thermostat has been available for the last 15 years.

[Basically anything, that enables us to be leaders rather than followers. The west has already made the hardware. We just have to utilize them to make money. SOmething like what Microsoft

does as compared to DELL or Compaq or HP.]

And you are talking about programming in JINI which was developed by Sun. So, exactly what is the leadership position you are talking about?

[Pu Li, its too late to join the race in the traditional industries and play catch up. Even the Param 10,000, the only super computer made outside of US/Japan is based on hooking up multiple Sun andIBM processors. THe technology that enables these processors to run together is developed by indians, and that is a great achievement.]

The parallel computer technology was RE-IMPLEMENTED by Indians within India. The first parallel processor was the ILLIAC series of the 1960s with the ILLIAC IV having 1024 Arithmetic/Logic Units. Dave Hillis designed the Connection Machine for his doctoral thesis at MIT in the 80s and his Thinking Machine Corporation put together 64K (yes, 64x1024) microprocessors. A system with thousands of microprocessors was delivered by Intel to the Sandia National Laboratory to replace the Cray supercomputers. I could buy an IBM RS/6000 SP box with 150 or more processors. So, how many processors in a Param-10000? The only real accomplishment is getting around the US embargo on supercomputers. (Maybe some of you recent graduates ought to stop thinking that you guys invented computer science. Go to a University library and get scientific papers going back to the 1950s to see what is new in computer architecture. The Burroughs B-5000 with direct execution of a high-level language as opposed to the pathetic assembly language of the Intel x86 series. The CDC 6600 – parallel execution units, instruction lookahead and decoding, pipelining – you name it, the CDC 6600 had it. Other than the reduction in physical size due to advances in semiconductor MANUFACTURING technology, something that you belittle.)

[You see its not wise to reinvent the wheel everytime; instead use that wheel to create the next generation of products that are going to be used in the future.]

This is the most patronizing statement in a post that was altogether patronizing in its tone. And you conveniently forget, if you ever knew it, that Param-10000 was nothing but a re-invention of the wheel, to use your own analogy.

[Increasingly a lot of things are being done on the software side. THe hardware is essentially a programable chip that gets its ``intelligence`` from the software that runs on it. So to advocate that India spend its resources trying to develop a peice of hardware, and that too of inferior quality, just to prove that we too can make it, is foolishness.]

Who said anything about computer hardware? Christ, there is more to life than those little PCs. How about good refrigerators, air conditioners, cars? A stable electrical grid? Better buses and trucks? More telephones?

[Now if you do not agree with me, then please address the issue of how and what Indian companies can do, to become as competetive as their western counter parts, by 2005. Cause once that year comes, INdia will be vulnerable in every possible area.]

All you are saying is that you as a computer professional will have a good life even after 2005. According to US Department of Labor figures quoted in an Indian magazine, over the next 10 years the US will produce 1.3 million high-tech jobs with only a quarter of them filled by new US graduates. Which leaves 1 million jobs to be filled by H1 visa holders over the next 10 years, just about equal to the 115,000 H-1 visas available annually of which between 45 and 50% go to Indians. So 50,000 new Indian graduates can expect to enter the US job market each year. At $100K a year, these people will earn $5 billion, the majority of which they will be spending in the US on housing, food and transportation. So, what will flow back to India?

If India is vulnerable, that is due to the cumulative effect of the mistakes made over the last 50 years. The US has figured that the only way to maintain high living standards is to continue to screw the rest of the world and is currently using WTO as the tool. Jay in his post gave an example of where Europe is banning genetically altered crops and beef raised using growth hormones as a way to check US dominance and the Japanese use of non-trade barriers. The US is hitting back at Europe by slapping tariffs on European farm products unless these European bans are lifted and at Japan by demanding Japan allow the import of agricultural products such as rice and fruits. You cannot stop this onslaught; it is too late.

You now have 5 years to do what other countries took 25 years to do. China opened its doors to foreign investment so that it can get the latest technology. You need to do that instead of importing Konka brand refrigerators from mainland China. You need to stop this bulshit about indigenisation which takes 5 years and then the product is 5 years behind the world. Just like Ford assembles cars with parts made all over the worls, India needs to set up factories that will put together appliances, making whatever parts it can and importing what it cannot. There is still high labor content in assembling appliances such as TVs, stereos, air conditioners, washing machines, etc. Assemble them in India, export them and at least employ a few million people. So what if it is owned by Sony or Toshiba? Don’t they have factories in China? Give them tax credits for setting up the factories in India and for new tools and dies needed to bring out new and competitive world-class models each year. And this business of making 5000 or 10000 units a year has got to stop. Unless you get manufacturing efficiencies by making millions of units, lowering the costs and thereby the price, increasing the demand, there is no hope for India. Organized cottage industries don’t cut it in a world of high-volume manufacturing.

By the way, don’t even bother to respond if you plan to mouth platitudes about the high-tech industry. China has shown that it could start with textiles and toys and move its economy into high gear just like all the Asian Tiger economies did. All this bullshit about high-tech is merely a cover for the traditional Indian disdain for working with one’s hands.

To PU LI # 70:

I guess I did not elaborate myself enough. When I said information, I meant the whole industry and infrastructure that sorrounds it. That inculdes developing software which enables flow of information such as databases; provide security solutions/ encrption technology; develop advanced algorithims that enable enhanced computational capability. That includes other spin offs, in the world of smart devices such as microwaves, tvs, fridges, etc. Mind you, I am not advocating that we make these. Rather, we provide the brains that make these devices intelligent. And that brain is implemented via software, not hardware. (The so called Jini devices that SUN Microsystems is trying to develop, where all these devices are connected to the Internet so that you can turn on your air- conditioner from work, so that when you walk in home, its nice and cool.)

Basically anything, that enables us to be leaders rather than followers. The west has already made the hardware. We just have to utilize them to make money. SOmething like what Microsoft does as compared to DELL or Compaq or HP.

Pu Li, its too late to join the race in the traditional industries and play catch up. Even the Param 10,000, the only super computer made outside of US/Japan is based on hooking up multiple Sun and IBM processors. THe technology that enables these processors to run together is developed by indians, and that is a great achievement.

You see its not wise to reinvent the wheel everytime; instead use that wheel to create the next generation of products that are going to be used in the future.

Increasingly a lot of things are being done on the software side. THe hardware is essentially a programable chip that gets its ``intelligence`` from the software that runs on it. So to advocate that India spend its resources trying to develop a peice of hardware, and that too of inferior quality, just to prove that we too can make it, is foolishness.

Its like what the Chinese did in the 50 revolution, : The Great Leap Forward. Mao, convinced that China needs to built steel to progress. And what happened is history. Farmers quit tiliing thier feilds to make sub standard steel, in home grown smelthing plants. Consequently, over 20 million people died of starvation.

Now if you do not agree with me, then please address the issue of how and what Indian companies can do, to become as competetive as their western counter parts, by 2005.

Cause once that year comes, then INdia will be vulnerable in every possible area.

AD

In response to Jay (Reply #77):

Dear Jay:

I have casually read a few writings of Anwar Shaikh. One can find more details about him on the internet. I don`t know what kind of reception he has received in Pakistan. I, however, feel that his writings are too eclectic and chaotic. A lot of people would hail him as a scholar of Islam, I have reservations about his scholarship.

I never thought that I would ever write anything about him. Jay, you have very successfully dragged me into it. I, however, am not sorry for this unpleasant exercise.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

To pu li,

The search for impartial history of india, i have put it along with those for the elixir of eternal youth, cure for grey hair and the search for yeti.

The demythification of heros and theories, i completely agree with you. We had a discussion group in those days about nailpauls ` India an area of darkness`, trvelled a few thousand km to meet him, it was a shocking book in those days and we felt there is a lot of truth in his words.

I do believe that a similar process hasnt started in pakistan, particularly i would like to know the reception Anwar Sheikh received in pakistan, is it discussed by the elite, or dismissed as blasphemy. May be bilal ahmed can help.

The need for pakistani elites to have a second look at jinnah and two nation theory is pertinant. In general i suspect that the pakistani elites are not interested in the abstracts that shape their tomorrows and cast shadows on their todays.

To bilal,

I have to totally agree with you there, my posts are in between `work`, i never reread it before clicking the send button, they are invariably a response to the central theme of the post i read a few minutes ago, not the outcome of a verbatim analysis as many tend to do. This approach is the result of a conviction that the pedagogic approch you tend to take is good good in the class room or for some one making a living out of it, but for the many on the forum for whom chowk posting is a hobby of some emotive underpinning, i suspect, my approach will be of substantive effect.

What is important in any country is the psyche of the ruling elite, in india it is the english educated upper middle class that control the destiny. The illiterate voters and the politicians have no significant influence, it is the bureacracies and news paper editors that run the place. Indira gandhis emergency was probably the only time when the politicians had real powers.

So, basicall when i talked about the contours of the pakistani psyche, all that i was hoping for was a personal explanation of how some educated pakistani would reconcile the contradictions in the pakistani govt actions. It would be too easy to explain them as absurd and random.

One explanation, almost true at an institutional level is the conflict between military and the civilian govt. If peace breaks out between india and pakistan, military will be disadvantaged, to be reduced from the rulers to an entity facing further budget cuts cannot be very palatable.

It can also be viewed at a higher level of abstraction as a consequence of the two nation theory. Having fed the people of pakistan that in india there is an institutionalised oppression of the muslims, the arch stone of the two nation theory, it is inconceivable that the govt could have a peace deal follwing lahore, or as suggested by the back door diplomats. common sense and economic reality demands a peace deal, essentially converting the LOC to international borders, but that would be an abbrogation of pakistani commitment to two nation theory and abandoment of the suffering muslims of india by a country that was crved as the heaven for the muslim.

To me this dichotamy is valid, plausible and explains many postings on the chowk all of whom meet my criteria of being pakistani elites.

I would appreciate an intutive response from you, not a word by word desection. Was it Linus Pauling the nobel laurette in chemistry who said about his discovery, `i knew it was coreect, all that it needed was filling in the details`. I wish i could say that.

Re Bahmad #: 64

[How do you do an impartial analysis of history?]

Factual history doesn?t exist in the context of the subcontinent. The reason for this is two-fold: if someone writes his autobiography, human vanity dictates that he would portray himself in the most favorable light, particularly when he knows that his opponents have been attacking him scurrilously throughout his life; if a biography is written by an associate, the ?Hong Ji?-?Huzoor?-?Sahib? servility that characterizes the relationship between a subordinate and his superior ensures that the leader will be portrayed in the most glorious terms. Thus, the people who are best qualified to describe the history of an era because they were eyewitnesses are the ones we can trust the least.

What are we to do? We can analyze incidences like Jinnah with the Rajput and Punjab princes and try to discover the motives and see if they conflict with the stated goal. Here we see the conflict between a Muslim majority state that Jinnah wanted and seeking to include in it Hindus and Sikhs. One can even understand Jinnah trying to include the Sikhs so that Punjab wouldn?t be partitioned or to play the Sikhs off against the Hindus. But why the Hindu states of Rajputana? If the answer is Jinnah was going to prove that Pakistan would remain secular, he had a sufficiently large Hindu popoulation in West Punjab and Sindh without having to include Rajputana. Why was Jinnah silent when the Rajput princes asked for guarantees for their subjects? Did Jinnah realize by August 1947 that a secular Pakistan will not be possible because of the large-scale population exchange that was taking place in front of his own eyes? If so, why ask the Rajput princes to accede to Pakistan? Except as a maneuver to grab land? Was the blank paper given to the princes to specify their own terms an act of generosity or bribery?

Some professor or student of history will have to go through the Indian events of the 1900s with a fine-toothed comb to try to understand and rationalize the bahavior of the leaders.

Subsequent events show that the princes who joined India essentially lost their privileges over a period of time. They kept their privy purses and titles till 1969, then even these were taken away. India differentiated between private property and state property and all land/property not explicitly identifiable as the personal property of the rulers was taken away, the land being distributed to the peasants. By passing the land ceiling acts, India was able to dispossess the rajahs and zamindars of their excessive (personal) landholdings. Pakistan hasn?t attempted to do this. So, when some Pakistani makes the claim that the egalitarian/socialist Muslims could not have lived under the bania capitalism of a united India?s Hindu majority (I probably read this in a column in Dawn or The Nation), Pakistanis must ask: is this the truth or is it myth in the garb of history?

At some point in our lives, we will have to deconstruct our leaders, separating myth from fact, if we are to understand history. Revisionist biographies of Nehru and Indira Gandhi are plenty. More recently, even Mahatma Gandhi, the father of India, has not been immune to critical analysis. Recent plays such as Mahatma vs. Gandhi and the one about his assassin Nathuram Godse have played to packed audiences in India. VS Naipaul in his book ?India: A Wounded Civilization? (written in 1975) has savagely attacked Gandhi. So, the process of de-mythification has been in progress in India though it might be confined to intellectuals. That may be because we have no identity crisis. My suggestion is that Pakistanis critically examine their country?s underlying assumptions. But that would require the conviction that Pakistan is something more than just not being India.

In response to Jay (Reply #: 71):

Dear Jay:

After reading you post several times on different occasions, I was unable to understand the purpose of your posting. I think, you are a person of at least above average intelligence, positive attributes, and predispositions. Yet, your writings suggest that you sometimes write quickly, freely, passionately, and provocatively. I must admit that I tend to avoid such tempting desires. Now, something more concrete.

Your statement: ``I was only trying to create a cogent theory, to map the contours of the pakistani psyche behind some of the recent pakistani govt actions.``

Comment: Are you talking about Pakistani psyche or the actions of Pakistani ruling elite? May be you don`t distinguish much. How could you construct a ``cogent theory`` with whatever information you have at your disposal? I think, you could theorize but it may not be a ``cogent theory.``

Your statements: ``I am ready to look at the web which you can weave to adorn the following. 1) Pakistan explodes the bomb and declares that they were forced to do it by india. 2) Months after the lahore declaration the govt maintains that a group of mujahideen, whom the govt gives only diplomatic and moral support occupies kargill. The govt declares that this is group, operating with out the direction and control of the govt, to liberate kashmir. 3) The foreign minister announces a diplomatic campaign to counter the indian plan for security council seat (not that i consider this important).`` Then you further add: ``To me these are not random events, there is leitmotif to the lunacy.``

Comment: Are you sure you really mean what you have said here? If yes, I would like you to elaborate upon each of these points highlighting your own position about the means of mass destruction, peace, media war, diplomacy, conflict resolution, democracy, balance of power, security council, and the world order. Am I asking too much?

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

Re jay #72:

Are you sure you weren`t replying to AD rather than me in this particular post? After all, he is the one who believes manufacturing is passe` and the information age is going to be the salvation of India, whereas I am taking the position that manufacturing is critical and India cannot afford to continue using 1950s technology nor can it sit back and accept the total lack of accountability that characterizes all activity in India.

to pu li,

I wish i could join in your enthusiasm for the new brave world, the `post industrial society` of Daniel Bell of 1970 vintage.

Your prescription for india reminds me of an event, nearly two decades ago in south east asia. There was a large shipment of scientific equipment from the EU to set up a major research facility in asia and at the last moment they decided to abandon the plan. The equipments were to be distributed to other asian countries, free, and some five countries were given the list of equipment and asked to select the ones they felt are of immediate and significant use. The south east asians selectd a few, the indian delegate declared that he, india, needs the whole lot, because of the size, poverty, complexity and the fact that india account for a sixth of the man kind.

At that time it appeared comical and greedy, now i am not sure. A significan number of indian work force in the services sector, with all its volitility and fickleness, india as a major exporter of services, i simply donot know.

May be you are correct, i knew some who would watch a movie rather than spend money on food, a service sector providing illusion, graduating from movies to virtual reality can substitute for roti, kapda and makhan.

Born again free traders of india should take a pause to ponder, there is subsidy for food production in the west because it is of strategic importance, a non american cannot own a US news paper because of potential for sedition and the resulting legal complications, the civil airlines in the US cannot be foreign owned because in the event of war they can be converted for troop transport, there is strategic reserve of ten million tons of cobalt, nickel, molybdenum etc in the US. It should be very stupid for a poor country to assume that every thing is strategic.

Again when one has a sixth of the mankind with in its borders, it needs everything, every thing is strategic, ploughshare and the pentium.

To bilal,

I was only trying to create a cogent theory, to map the contours of the pakistani psyche behind some of the recent pakistani govt actions. I am ready to consider, even accept any explanations other than the most simplistic, `mianji is corrupt`, the beurocrats are incompetant, it is the work of CIA, KGB, RAW etc, the population is illiterate and poor, by now you should know the type i am talking about. I am ready to look at the web which you can weave to adorn the following.

1) Pakistan explodes the bomb and declares that they were forced to do it by india.

2) Months after the lahore declaration the govt maintains that a group of mujahideen, whom the govt gives only diplomatic and moral support occupies kargill. The govt declares that this is group, operating with out the direction and control of the govt, to liberate kashmir.

3) The foreign minister announces a diplomatic campaign to counter the indian plan for security council seat (not that i consider this important).

To me these are not random events, there is leitmotif to the lunacy.

Re ad #: 59

[So the question is what will India have to sell ? And the answer is..... information. Even though it sounds difficult to believe, but in the future the

most costly commodity is going to be just that.

Companies that will thrive, are companies that are going to have the right information at the right time. That means that even though India has no

industries, no products, nothing... what it will have are people, who will enable companies to get that information.]

Exactly what information do you think is needed by companies? If I am an American company interested in finding out who will make jeans to my specifications (price, delivery and quality), I would want to go an e-commerce network and broadcast it to all suppliers. If the contract is for $100 million, considering that the supplier is lucky to make a 6% net profit or $6 million, what will he be willing to pay you who provides that e-commerce network? Perhaps 10% of that $6 million of $600,000. That will be your total turnover or revenue on my $100 million deal, a minuscule 0.6%.

If I am a dealer selling a $20,000 car on the internet , my gross margin on the car is somewhere between 10 and 15% or $2,000 to $3000. My net profit is likely to be closer to half of that. So, I would probably be willing to give you $100, which is 0.5%. On this 0.5% margin you have to maintain a database, a network, etc. Tell me where the margins are – in manufacturing or in dealing with information?

By the way, IBM already runs a network to support my first example and you have got sites such as carpoint and autobytel to do the second.

And how is it that, if as you say ``Companies that will thrive, are companies that are going to have the right information at the right time``, no one has heard of the business-to-business internet information providers but everybody knows about portals such as Yahoo which are oriented toward the general public?

[You might think that its absurd that I should argue on hypothetical situations. Well if you look at the market cap of Yahoo, you might find my argument more convincing. Its market cap is more than that of CBS ! And all they do is provide information !]

How many Yahoos do you think you can have in India? Do you have the communication network inside India and with the rest of the world to support all that load that will be generated?

[ Ford bought out volvo at $6.5 billion. Compare that to the sale of Excite for $6.6 billion. So I think that there is a solid future in being a ``services oriented`` country.

What is wrong with that. Singapore, Hong Kong are already allocating funds to divert people from manufacturing to services. Singapore wants to be the information mecca of the digital age. For that reason, it is investing heavily into making the whole country connected via the NET.

I think countries that provide services, in the information age, are going to be at the top of the food chain, not the bottom.]

What does Excite offer for sale? I can sign on to Excite for nothing and use it as a portal to visit other sites. The $6.6 billion valuation requires that Excite earn at least $500 million a year as profit since you would expect at least an 8% rate of return on investment in the US. (Actually, in the services industry such as consulting, a company is valued at its annual revenues. So, does Excite earn $6.6 billion annually?) What are Excite’s profits? Everybody is salivating about the FUTURE. This was the same thought process that took Netscape from $19 to $175 a share and back to $19. Further, remember that Excite and others earn their income selling ads but advertising is a small portion of the final product cost.

So, it really boils down to exporting IT labor. Have you asked yourself why is it that the countries with a manufacturing base (US, UK, Germany, Canada, Australia, Singapore, Japan) are the ones importing cheap (by their standards) IT labor from India?

In response to Jay (Reply #: 68):

Dear Jay:

In my previous post (Reply # 67), I quoted one statement from Akbar S. Ahmed (1997: 110) to suggest that the two-nation theory meant (and still means) different things to different people. Neither in Pakistan nor in India the people are homogenous in their beliefs, ways of lives, and world-views. A living proof of this is the existence of too many political parties (particularly in Pakistan). Although during the past half-century or so an effort has been made to focus on a dominant (establishment-propagated) Pakistan ideology, a lot of educated people generally resist such a view both overtly and covertly. However, when they see many Indians stressing too much upon the dominant (which may not realistically be the dominant) ideology, they get somewhat perplexed and attribute the Indian reaction as a phobia. May be they need to pay more attention to the external critique.

Jay, I know that you like me are interested in the issue of collective identity. Your postings suggest that the two-nation theory deeply disturbs you (for some reasons that I would like to know). In my case, I maintain a somewhat flexible view of this theory. Why? Perhaps because I believe that collective identities are often temporary, contradictory, chaotic, overlapping/nested, and hierarchical (just to mention a few broad characteristics).

Jay, I need not over-emphasize that societies are a result of a complex interplay of human agency and social structures. Although structures are a product of human agency, structures are by definition difficult to transform through human agency in a short time period. This requires us to understand the duality of social relations (a la Marx, Giddens, and many other social theorists). When I said that I would (ideally speaking) like to break all barriers between the human beings, I was talking about the barriers created by the way societies are structured. So, I was talking about an extremely difficult task basically on an intellectual terrain. I sense that you want to break all (at least unnecessary, in your view) barriers without much sympathy/empathy to the existing social practices, institutions, and structures. If this is true, my position is different from that of yours. I, however, would like to learn more about your position (particularly about the two-nation theory).

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

To bahmed,

Two nation theory, if all that meant was living seperate `lives`, in terms of neighbour hoods, social values etc. it is nothing new in india, even in those days and even now. Various caste groups have lived their seperate ways, they are endogamous groups and now they are emerging as political parties. Caste system, which at one time was the mechanism of structured oppression, is emerging as political bargaining device, the colapse of congress party at last has created a political `level` playing field.

Now coming back to the two nation, i do believe that the expressed concern for the muslim brothern of india is a hangover from the two nation theory, mainly because it does not, or at least i havnt come accross, any sunni, shia, ahmedia distinctions in this preoccupation. The ruling political elite of pakistan makes this distinction domestically, while the hangover does not. The other possiblilty is that it is a general pan islamic interst, like the americans sending a special envoy because one christian priest is killed in india, then it is an islamic leadership role for pakistan and i whole heartedly welcome it.

The other aspect you mentioned is the idea of friendship accross religious boundaries. Friendship is a very modern concept, it is a product of `free market` and the notion of choice. The relatives are preordained, they are given and one is supposed to intercat and live with them, it is the blood that binds. The notion of friendship, the very foundation of which is free association based on individual likes and dislikes is the rot that disintegrates the mortar of society. It will need significant mobility, nuclearisation (the bomb) of the family, urbanisation and the colapse of the arranged marriage system. It is amusing to see on the internet matrimonials, the predominace of the caste info, the tentacles of a religion adapted and evolved over several thousand years, i am sure will come out a `winner` in the modernisation battle. I am not waiting for friendship to build bridges to the muslims of india, i wish i could.