Yet we share the same home - Our Indus Valley
Navaid March 21, 2000
#119 Posted by mohajir on May 25, 2000 7:49:03 pm
Words into swords
A historical clash of Muslims and Hindus
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/990816/india.htm
BY JONAH BLANK
At the turn of the millennium, a fertile flatland watered by five rivers was experiencing a greater cataclysm than any corner of Christendom. The horsemen of this particular apocalypse thundered down from the Afghan mountains, and life on the Indian subcontinent would never be the same.
India had seen many invasions, and the pattern was drearily familiar: Brutal hordes would sweep in from the West, make a nuisance of themselves for a while, and eventually be absorbed into polite society. The Rajput princes who fought the new marauders were themselves descended from barbaric Huns who had burned and pillaged their way down from Central Asia a few centuries earlier. Before them had been Scythians, Greeks, and all sorts of other unwelcome guests. Even the Indo-Europeans, who brought the Vedas, the caste system, and other foundations of Hinduism, were relative newcomers to the neighborhood: 2,500 years earlier they`d supplanted the fading Indus Valley civilization, a literate, technologically advanced culture created by still earlier migrants.
Infinite variety. In the year 1000, the Hindus of India didn`t think of themselves as ``Hindus,`` and wouldn`t have identified their homeland as ``India.`` Those words had been coined far away and used from the time of Alexander the Great to describe the people and the lands east of the Indus River. Indeed, the ideas behind those foreign words were equally alien: The inhabitants of the region lived in a mishmash of kingdoms, spoke myriad languages, and worshiped a multiplicity of gods in a boundless variety of ways. As far as religious identity went, the only clear line they drew was between people who recognized the primacy of Vedic scriptures and people who did not.
And people who did not were nothing new. Less than 200 years earlier, devotees of Shiva and Vishnu (the two most widely worshiped Hindu deities, then and now) had wrested political control of many principalities back from Buddhists and Jains. And even before that, India had been home to far more unusual beliefs: Christians, Jews and (more recently) Zoroastrians–people who thought that divinity could assume only one form–had found refuge in towns up and down the western coast for 900 years.
Perhaps the most stubbornly monotheistic newcomers were the Muslims. They`d arrived as merchants in the late seventh century and had made thousands of converts with their radical message of social equality. It was a shocking notion–how could a person who mucked out latrines be considered the equal of a Brahman or a maharajah? The new faith proved attractive to members of the lower castes, but Hindus of all levels felt that as long as everyone continued to perform the tasks laid out in the Code of Manu (the text detailing the ideal Hindu society), it didn`t matter whether they prayed to Krishna, Ganesh–or Allah.
In 997, all of that changed.
The Muslim warlord Mahmud of Ghazni stormed through the Khyber Pass and wreaked devastation through the rich provinces of Punjab and Sindh. His Turkic cavalrymen looted all that lay in their path, desecrating temples and smashing sacred idols in their pious, pitiless iconoclasm. There would be 16 more attacks over the next three decades.
Mahmud`s invasions have shaped the popular image of how Islam penetrated South Asia, but they are only part of the story. It is also true that the Muslim sultans who succeeded him included tolerant princes like Shamsuddin Iltutmish and the great Mughal emperor Akbar. And that the vast majority of South Asian Muslims–who now compose nearly one third of the population of India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh–were converted to Islam by the words of missionaries rather than the swords of conquerors.
The spears and scimitars of the first millennium may have given way to the MiGs and Stingers of the second. But to assume from the recent conflict in Kashmir that India`s history is one of continuous religious conflict would be quite wrong. Modern historians like Gyanendra Pandey argue that until the late 19th century, most Indians identified more strongly with their local community than with the faith that their community happened to follow. It is still quite common for Hindus to seek the blessing of Muslim holy men at Sufi shrines throughout India.
Mahmud the Ghaznavid, hacking the heads off worshipers and the icons they worshiped, is an image burned into the collective consciousness of the subcontinent. But while Hindus and Muslims were dying at each others` hands in the icy mountains above Kargil last month, they were living peacefully, side by side, throughout most of India. The same was true even as Mahmud carried out his bloody depredations, almost exactly 1,000 years before.
A historical clash of Muslims and Hindus
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/990816/india.htm
BY JONAH BLANK
At the turn of the millennium, a fertile flatland watered by five rivers was experiencing a greater cataclysm than any corner of Christendom. The horsemen of this particular apocalypse thundered down from the Afghan mountains, and life on the Indian subcontinent would never be the same.
India had seen many invasions, and the pattern was drearily familiar: Brutal hordes would sweep in from the West, make a nuisance of themselves for a while, and eventually be absorbed into polite society. The Rajput princes who fought the new marauders were themselves descended from barbaric Huns who had burned and pillaged their way down from Central Asia a few centuries earlier. Before them had been Scythians, Greeks, and all sorts of other unwelcome guests. Even the Indo-Europeans, who brought the Vedas, the caste system, and other foundations of Hinduism, were relative newcomers to the neighborhood: 2,500 years earlier they`d supplanted the fading Indus Valley civilization, a literate, technologically advanced culture created by still earlier migrants.
Infinite variety. In the year 1000, the Hindus of India didn`t think of themselves as ``Hindus,`` and wouldn`t have identified their homeland as ``India.`` Those words had been coined far away and used from the time of Alexander the Great to describe the people and the lands east of the Indus River. Indeed, the ideas behind those foreign words were equally alien: The inhabitants of the region lived in a mishmash of kingdoms, spoke myriad languages, and worshiped a multiplicity of gods in a boundless variety of ways. As far as religious identity went, the only clear line they drew was between people who recognized the primacy of Vedic scriptures and people who did not.
And people who did not were nothing new. Less than 200 years earlier, devotees of Shiva and Vishnu (the two most widely worshiped Hindu deities, then and now) had wrested political control of many principalities back from Buddhists and Jains. And even before that, India had been home to far more unusual beliefs: Christians, Jews and (more recently) Zoroastrians–people who thought that divinity could assume only one form–had found refuge in towns up and down the western coast for 900 years.
Perhaps the most stubbornly monotheistic newcomers were the Muslims. They`d arrived as merchants in the late seventh century and had made thousands of converts with their radical message of social equality. It was a shocking notion–how could a person who mucked out latrines be considered the equal of a Brahman or a maharajah? The new faith proved attractive to members of the lower castes, but Hindus of all levels felt that as long as everyone continued to perform the tasks laid out in the Code of Manu (the text detailing the ideal Hindu society), it didn`t matter whether they prayed to Krishna, Ganesh–or Allah.
In 997, all of that changed.
The Muslim warlord Mahmud of Ghazni stormed through the Khyber Pass and wreaked devastation through the rich provinces of Punjab and Sindh. His Turkic cavalrymen looted all that lay in their path, desecrating temples and smashing sacred idols in their pious, pitiless iconoclasm. There would be 16 more attacks over the next three decades.
Mahmud`s invasions have shaped the popular image of how Islam penetrated South Asia, but they are only part of the story. It is also true that the Muslim sultans who succeeded him included tolerant princes like Shamsuddin Iltutmish and the great Mughal emperor Akbar. And that the vast majority of South Asian Muslims–who now compose nearly one third of the population of India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh–were converted to Islam by the words of missionaries rather than the swords of conquerors.
The spears and scimitars of the first millennium may have given way to the MiGs and Stingers of the second. But to assume from the recent conflict in Kashmir that India`s history is one of continuous religious conflict would be quite wrong. Modern historians like Gyanendra Pandey argue that until the late 19th century, most Indians identified more strongly with their local community than with the faith that their community happened to follow. It is still quite common for Hindus to seek the blessing of Muslim holy men at Sufi shrines throughout India.
Mahmud the Ghaznavid, hacking the heads off worshipers and the icons they worshiped, is an image burned into the collective consciousness of the subcontinent. But while Hindus and Muslims were dying at each others` hands in the icy mountains above Kargil last month, they were living peacefully, side by side, throughout most of India. The same was true even as Mahmud carried out his bloody depredations, almost exactly 1,000 years before.
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#118 Posted by mohajir on April 26, 2000 1:02:13 am
Pakistani hires Indian software engineers
Los Angeles Times
India, for instance, has 4.1 million technical and scientific workers and is churning out an additional 70,000 computer programmers and developers a year, said Navtej Sarna, spokesman at the Indian Embassy in Washington.
India, like Malaysia, Israel and other nations, is beefing up its high-tech sector ``with an eye toward attracting high-paying jobs from the U.S. and other developed nations,`` said Harris Miller, president of the Information Technology Assn. of America.
Mahboob Akhter, a Pakistani native who lives in Orange County, knows the hidden talent overseas. He first made extensive contacts in India and Pakistan in the mid-1990s while working at another U.S. firm.
As president of Focus Software International in Tustin, Akhter has sent much of his company`s software development work to India and Pakistan over the last three years.
Focus Software employs 15 Indian programmers, who are subcontracted through an Indian firm. Akhter said outsourcing saves him at least 30% on labor costs, part of which he passes on to customers.
``I`ve been happy with the results,`` he said. ``Programmers have been able to deliver the projects on time and [with] good quality.``
Los Angeles Times
India, for instance, has 4.1 million technical and scientific workers and is churning out an additional 70,000 computer programmers and developers a year, said Navtej Sarna, spokesman at the Indian Embassy in Washington.
India, like Malaysia, Israel and other nations, is beefing up its high-tech sector ``with an eye toward attracting high-paying jobs from the U.S. and other developed nations,`` said Harris Miller, president of the Information Technology Assn. of America.
Mahboob Akhter, a Pakistani native who lives in Orange County, knows the hidden talent overseas. He first made extensive contacts in India and Pakistan in the mid-1990s while working at another U.S. firm.
As president of Focus Software International in Tustin, Akhter has sent much of his company`s software development work to India and Pakistan over the last three years.
Focus Software employs 15 Indian programmers, who are subcontracted through an Indian firm. Akhter said outsourcing saves him at least 30% on labor costs, part of which he passes on to customers.
``I`ve been happy with the results,`` he said. ``Programmers have been able to deliver the projects on time and [with] good quality.``
#117 Posted by RanaRansher on April 7, 2000 10:04:57 am
re: Kafir K Khan
KayKay I am also big fan of GULKANDH.
I have proposition for you.
Last night, I am @Paki Paan shop. I am eating paan with GULKANDH and others are also eating paan w/ or without GULKANDH. In the background, Shah Rukh and Juhi are dancing away to famous song `Phir bhi Dil hai Hindustani`. Everybody is looking and enjaaying. Some people are getting confused with Shah Rukh changing between gerwa, hara and chitta outfits, but then even they are enjaaying when Juhi is coming on screen and mesmerizing them.
With this as backdrop, and your replies as background, it is suddhenly striking me that there needs to be massive GULKANDH exchange between India and Pak. We are talking massive exchange of India GULKANDH for Paki GULKANDH. What the hell, we can do it online and have eGULKANDH.com, have B2B e-commerce, go public on NASD, everything. You are getting my drift !!!
So please send `your boy` to Waggah. Where `my boy` will meet him and do the GULKANDH exchange.
BTW which brand are you into these days ?
regards
KayKay I am also big fan of GULKANDH.
I have proposition for you.
Last night, I am @Paki Paan shop. I am eating paan with GULKANDH and others are also eating paan w/ or without GULKANDH. In the background, Shah Rukh and Juhi are dancing away to famous song `Phir bhi Dil hai Hindustani`. Everybody is looking and enjaaying. Some people are getting confused with Shah Rukh changing between gerwa, hara and chitta outfits, but then even they are enjaaying when Juhi is coming on screen and mesmerizing them.
With this as backdrop, and your replies as background, it is suddhenly striking me that there needs to be massive GULKANDH exchange between India and Pak. We are talking massive exchange of India GULKANDH for Paki GULKANDH. What the hell, we can do it online and have eGULKANDH.com, have B2B e-commerce, go public on NASD, everything. You are getting my drift !!!
So please send `your boy` to Waggah. Where `my boy` will meet him and do the GULKANDH exchange.
BTW which brand are you into these days ?
regards
#115 Posted by mohajir on April 5, 2000 6:31:48 pm
There is a more detailed article on Aftab Hussain in South China Morning Post and Agence France Presse.
http://www.scmp.com/News/Asia/Article/FullText_asp_ArticleID-20000405034446874.asp
http://www.scmp.com/News/Asia/Article/FullText_asp_ArticleID-20000405034446874.asp
#114 Posted by concerned on April 5, 2000 6:31:48 pm
sadhana,
aftab hussain is a raw agent, trying to put the ce in a bad light. you should have known.
rgds
aftab hussain is a raw agent, trying to put the ce in a bad light. you should have known.
rgds
#113 Posted by temporal on April 5, 2000 1:05:28 pm
sadna #122:
Sadhna bibi, no need to thunder. This story only appeared yesterday. Let me see what I can find out from other papers. If I find something relevant I will post it for you on another board, as this is about to disappear.
I knew Kalimuddin Ahmed, but I do not know this fellow Aftab Hussain.
Couple of things I would like to point out in the meanwhile.
The story says, ``He recently crossed over to India...`` and `` Accompanied by a close friend Hussain went to his village, picked up his passport and boarded a train to India on March 16.``
Getting to India or vice versa is not an easy task. It takes months of preparation.
Persecution for translating Vajpayees looks like a tall order. All I am saying for now is it appears there is more to this story than the write up suggests.
rgds
t
Sadhna bibi, no need to thunder. This story only appeared yesterday. Let me see what I can find out from other papers. If I find something relevant I will post it for you on another board, as this is about to disappear.
I knew Kalimuddin Ahmed, but I do not know this fellow Aftab Hussain.
Couple of things I would like to point out in the meanwhile.
The story says, ``He recently crossed over to India...`` and `` Accompanied by a close friend Hussain went to his village, picked up his passport and boarded a train to India on March 16.``
Getting to India or vice versa is not an easy task. It takes months of preparation.
Persecution for translating Vajpayees looks like a tall order. All I am saying for now is it appears there is more to this story than the write up suggests.
rgds
t
#112 Posted by sadna on April 5, 2000 10:22:07 am
Where are all those human rights hawks? Can anyone provide more insight into this story?
Sadhana
http://www.rediff.com/news/2000/apr/04onkar.htm
Pakistani poet on the run, seeks shelter in India
Onkar Singh
Noted Pakistani poet Aftab Hussain is on the run. He was instrumental in getting an Urdu translation of Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee`s poems published in Pakistan - a mistake that has made him a stranger in his own country.
He recently crossed over to India to escape persecution by the Musharraf regime and has been trying to seek support from fellow writers.
Hussain visited India in 1998 to collect research material on the life and works of renowned Urdu critic Kalmuddin Ahmed for his doctoral dissertation. He stayed in India for nearly three months.
When he returned to Pakistan, security agencies started interrogating him about his long stay in India. However, the harassment stopped after some Pakistani journalists and writers intervened.
However, the real trouble started after Dr Jameel Akhtar sent him some Urdu translations of Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee`s poetry collection with a request to get them printed in Pakistan.
``No publisher wanted to print the book. When Vajpayee`s visit to Lahore was imminent and the relationships between the two countries improved, I decided to give it another try and the book Jang Na Hone Denge was published,`` recalls Hussain.
He presented a copy of the book to Prime Minister Vajpayee when he travelled to Pakistan on the Lahore bus. Deposed prime minister Nawaz Sharief was in power then.
After General Pervez Musharraf took over as the chief executive of the country in a military coup, intelligence agencies once more contacted him and asked him to give a statement against Sharief in the court. They wanted him to tell the court that the deposed prime minister had commissioned him to get the book printed.
He refused.
Soon after, Hussain`s house was raided while he was away at Karachi. ``They (intelligence sleuths) ransacked my house. I realised that there was danger to life.``
Accompanied by a close friend Hussain went to his village, picked up his passport and boarded a train to India on March 16.
In India he got in touch with his friend Kamleshwar, who made arrangements for his stay.
Hussain has a ninety-day visa. What after that?
``I would try and sort out the matter in this period. I`ll talk to writers and journalists in India and seek their help. I could have gone to another country but there I would not have felt at home like I do in India,`` he says.
Sadhana
http://www.rediff.com/news/2000/apr/04onkar.htm
Pakistani poet on the run, seeks shelter in India
Onkar Singh
Noted Pakistani poet Aftab Hussain is on the run. He was instrumental in getting an Urdu translation of Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee`s poems published in Pakistan - a mistake that has made him a stranger in his own country.
He recently crossed over to India to escape persecution by the Musharraf regime and has been trying to seek support from fellow writers.
Hussain visited India in 1998 to collect research material on the life and works of renowned Urdu critic Kalmuddin Ahmed for his doctoral dissertation. He stayed in India for nearly three months.
When he returned to Pakistan, security agencies started interrogating him about his long stay in India. However, the harassment stopped after some Pakistani journalists and writers intervened.
However, the real trouble started after Dr Jameel Akhtar sent him some Urdu translations of Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee`s poetry collection with a request to get them printed in Pakistan.
``No publisher wanted to print the book. When Vajpayee`s visit to Lahore was imminent and the relationships between the two countries improved, I decided to give it another try and the book Jang Na Hone Denge was published,`` recalls Hussain.
He presented a copy of the book to Prime Minister Vajpayee when he travelled to Pakistan on the Lahore bus. Deposed prime minister Nawaz Sharief was in power then.
After General Pervez Musharraf took over as the chief executive of the country in a military coup, intelligence agencies once more contacted him and asked him to give a statement against Sharief in the court. They wanted him to tell the court that the deposed prime minister had commissioned him to get the book printed.
He refused.
Soon after, Hussain`s house was raided while he was away at Karachi. ``They (intelligence sleuths) ransacked my house. I realised that there was danger to life.``
Accompanied by a close friend Hussain went to his village, picked up his passport and boarded a train to India on March 16.
In India he got in touch with his friend Kamleshwar, who made arrangements for his stay.
Hussain has a ninety-day visa. What after that?
``I would try and sort out the matter in this period. I`ll talk to writers and journalists in India and seek their help. I could have gone to another country but there I would not have felt at home like I do in India,`` he says.
#111 Posted by Moez on April 5, 2000 1:23:50 am
Re: Jay
I think it will be better for you to worry about Kerala, let us worry about our problems...cynicism aside, try to give solutions or dont become part of the problem. Sure there are differences amoung us (Indo-Pak)but mindlessly beating a dead horse wont solve the problems...just an advice, I know you a learned man, hope you will understand.
Cheers
Moez Momin.
I think it will be better for you to worry about Kerala, let us worry about our problems...cynicism aside, try to give solutions or dont become part of the problem. Sure there are differences amoung us (Indo-Pak)but mindlessly beating a dead horse wont solve the problems...just an advice, I know you a learned man, hope you will understand.
Cheers
Moez Momin.
#110 Posted by macgupta on April 4, 2000 7:29:08 pm
In response to Mohajir (#118) who posted an article on Fareed Zakaria :
Most people who leave India have a mental picture of India that is frozen at the time they left. Fareed Zakaria is no exception to this.
For example, the very last sentence, ( which ought to be the easiest to address, because it makes a factual statement ) : ``The government is still wasting money, building steel mills and dams, subsidizing cement prices.``
There has been a free market in cement in India since 1989; there is no government subsidy for cement. E.g., see http://www.cementindia.net/Govt.html
As far as steel goes, yes, the Indian government is expanding existing public sector plants; but the bulk of the new investment is in the private sector. E.g., see http://www.ad1999.com/india/steel/
SAIL, the public sector giant made profits in 1997 and 1998, but did lose money in 1999.
http://www.sail.co.in/sail/p_lac.htm
So, that leaves dams, which yes, the Indian govt. is still wasting money on.
-arun gupta
Most people who leave India have a mental picture of India that is frozen at the time they left. Fareed Zakaria is no exception to this.
For example, the very last sentence, ( which ought to be the easiest to address, because it makes a factual statement ) : ``The government is still wasting money, building steel mills and dams, subsidizing cement prices.``
There has been a free market in cement in India since 1989; there is no government subsidy for cement. E.g., see http://www.cementindia.net/Govt.html
As far as steel goes, yes, the Indian government is expanding existing public sector plants; but the bulk of the new investment is in the private sector. E.g., see http://www.ad1999.com/india/steel/
SAIL, the public sector giant made profits in 1997 and 1998, but did lose money in 1999.
http://www.sail.co.in/sail/p_lac.htm
So, that leaves dams, which yes, the Indian govt. is still wasting money on.
-arun gupta
#109 Posted by kafir K Khan on April 3, 2000 10:10:40 pm
Re # 115, Ali 1
So I agree as you agree that it is upto us what we want to be. Well said. There are numerically lot more saner Pakistanis than insane one. I will be very unhappy if anyone criticises good work done by Edhi Foundation. What did authorities do to those who threatened Edhi. If they had punished them, no one will dare do it again. I think when U include BB and NS, please also include CEO in the same vein. He has been giving statements everywhere. Some times it pays to be silent than openly say in Thailand,``WE HAVE SERIOUS DIFFERENCES WITH THE US``. In atypically Army fashion, he does not think of the aftereffects just like KARGIL. IT IS GULKANDH TIME.
So I agree as you agree that it is upto us what we want to be. Well said. There are numerically lot more saner Pakistanis than insane one. I will be very unhappy if anyone criticises good work done by Edhi Foundation. What did authorities do to those who threatened Edhi. If they had punished them, no one will dare do it again. I think when U include BB and NS, please also include CEO in the same vein. He has been giving statements everywhere. Some times it pays to be silent than openly say in Thailand,``WE HAVE SERIOUS DIFFERENCES WITH THE US``. In atypically Army fashion, he does not think of the aftereffects just like KARGIL. IT IS GULKANDH TIME.
#108 Posted by mohajir on April 3, 2000 10:10:40 pm
http://www.time.com/time/daily/special/india/fareed.html
Fareed Zakaria
Editor of Foreign Affairs, the publication of New York`s influential Council on Foreign Relations, Fareed Zakaria, 36, is somewhat gloomy about India`s future. ``It is sad that Indians succeed in every country except their own,`` he says. ``It says a lot about political institutions and economic policies, and about getting the state right. You can have talented, motivated people, but if you don`t put them in the right environment and give them the right incentive structure, you are not going to see the same achievement.``
Educated at the prestigious Cathedral school in Bombay, Zakaria went to Yale at age 18. ``I felt more intellectually and culturally at home at Yale than I did in India,`` he says. In the last stages of completing his bid for U.S. citizenship, Zakaria has no plans to live in India again. ``I didn`t come here for the money,`` he says. ``My parents were quite comfortable, and in fact, I actually took a drop in living standards.`` The attraction of the U.S. was its intellectual environment. ``I had grown up in a vanishing India that had been a product of English liberalism,`` he says. ``I had to move in one direction or the other: I either had to get back to India and learn more about its indigenous literature and culture, or I had to go the other way and Westernize. For most of the kids in my school, Westernization meant technology, rock music and films. They had lost the language of their parents, and yet their relationship with English was essentially as a business language. So they were in a weird world in which they had no access to any culture on a deep level. That troubled me.``
Zakaria believes India could dominate the next century, but only if it changes dramatically. ``The system in India still responds very slowly to the rest of the world,`` he says. ``You can have software companies and a booming economy, but in the end, you cannot modernize a society without modernizing the state. India needs massive deregulation and a withdrawal of the state from the economic sphere. You still have massive government expenditures in all the wrong areas, unthinkable in most of the Western world and East Asia. The Indian government is poor and it needs all the money it can get for infrastructure, basic health and education. The government is still wasting money, building steel mills and dams, subsidizing cement prices.``
PHOTO: JOHN ABBOTT FOR TIME
Fareed Zakaria
Editor of Foreign Affairs, the publication of New York`s influential Council on Foreign Relations, Fareed Zakaria, 36, is somewhat gloomy about India`s future. ``It is sad that Indians succeed in every country except their own,`` he says. ``It says a lot about political institutions and economic policies, and about getting the state right. You can have talented, motivated people, but if you don`t put them in the right environment and give them the right incentive structure, you are not going to see the same achievement.``
Educated at the prestigious Cathedral school in Bombay, Zakaria went to Yale at age 18. ``I felt more intellectually and culturally at home at Yale than I did in India,`` he says. In the last stages of completing his bid for U.S. citizenship, Zakaria has no plans to live in India again. ``I didn`t come here for the money,`` he says. ``My parents were quite comfortable, and in fact, I actually took a drop in living standards.`` The attraction of the U.S. was its intellectual environment. ``I had grown up in a vanishing India that had been a product of English liberalism,`` he says. ``I had to move in one direction or the other: I either had to get back to India and learn more about its indigenous literature and culture, or I had to go the other way and Westernize. For most of the kids in my school, Westernization meant technology, rock music and films. They had lost the language of their parents, and yet their relationship with English was essentially as a business language. So they were in a weird world in which they had no access to any culture on a deep level. That troubled me.``
Zakaria believes India could dominate the next century, but only if it changes dramatically. ``The system in India still responds very slowly to the rest of the world,`` he says. ``You can have software companies and a booming economy, but in the end, you cannot modernize a society without modernizing the state. India needs massive deregulation and a withdrawal of the state from the economic sphere. You still have massive government expenditures in all the wrong areas, unthinkable in most of the Western world and East Asia. The Indian government is poor and it needs all the money it can get for infrastructure, basic health and education. The government is still wasting money, building steel mills and dams, subsidizing cement prices.``
PHOTO: JOHN ABBOTT FOR TIME
#107 Posted by tsel on April 3, 2000 3:17:57 pm
hai All,
This is just a test....pls do not ignore
rgrds
Selvan
This is just a test....pls do not ignore
rgrds
Selvan
#106 Posted by concerned on April 3, 2000 12:30:29 am
ras siddiqui,
i posted the url for the rediff interview with mirwaiz couple of days ago here, maybe on another board. you could look it up here or search rediff.
basically, in the interview, mirwaiz said ``i admit that we have training camps in `azad` kashmir, we also get support from the govt of pakistan and the isi, and we invite others to fight here``.
one would hope that this would put an end to years of lies and farce of `only diplomatic, political and moral support` from the pakistani govt.
or, maybe it won`t. the CE can deny even this, just as he has denied clinton`s statement about `elements of pakistani govt`.
i have no problem with the likes of hamidm who have the courage to say that ``our sons and brothers have died fighting for `that piece of land`, therefore we must get it``. no matter how wrong he is about his methods, at least he is honest and is not shedding crocodile tears about the human rights of kashmiris. however, i can only laugh and smile (humbly or otherwise) at the half-kashmiri and others like him, who continue to ignore the reality and flaunt statements to the effect `pakistan has no territorial ambitions on kashmir`.
i also take exception to the remarks made by educated people like you who make sarcastic remarks like `by the way, good luck on getting back the parts that india gifted to china`, knowing fully well what had happened. till date, no pakistani has had the courage to explain why pakistan gave kashmiri land to china. you, of course, believe that it doesn`t matter because `it has had minimal effect on j&k`. do your friends in aphc also believe that it was ok to sell it?
i posted the url for the rediff interview with mirwaiz couple of days ago here, maybe on another board. you could look it up here or search rediff.
basically, in the interview, mirwaiz said ``i admit that we have training camps in `azad` kashmir, we also get support from the govt of pakistan and the isi, and we invite others to fight here``.
one would hope that this would put an end to years of lies and farce of `only diplomatic, political and moral support` from the pakistani govt.
or, maybe it won`t. the CE can deny even this, just as he has denied clinton`s statement about `elements of pakistani govt`.
i have no problem with the likes of hamidm who have the courage to say that ``our sons and brothers have died fighting for `that piece of land`, therefore we must get it``. no matter how wrong he is about his methods, at least he is honest and is not shedding crocodile tears about the human rights of kashmiris. however, i can only laugh and smile (humbly or otherwise) at the half-kashmiri and others like him, who continue to ignore the reality and flaunt statements to the effect `pakistan has no territorial ambitions on kashmir`.
i also take exception to the remarks made by educated people like you who make sarcastic remarks like `by the way, good luck on getting back the parts that india gifted to china`, knowing fully well what had happened. till date, no pakistani has had the courage to explain why pakistan gave kashmiri land to china. you, of course, believe that it doesn`t matter because `it has had minimal effect on j&k`. do your friends in aphc also believe that it was ok to sell it?
#105 Posted by ali1 on April 3, 2000 12:30:29 am
RE: kafir khan # 112
``I am not a Muslim hater but love to hate a certain kind of Momin-CEO kind and also NS kind.``
Mere dost, if CE and NS drive you to kufr, some other jokers like Maulana Sami ul Haq (madam Tahira walay) and Maulana Fazl ur Rehman (aka Mulla Diesel) will drive you to suicide!!
Our fate in this world and the hereafter (if you believe in one) depends on us and us alone, not the BBs and the CEs and the Shia/Sunni/Wahabi mullas. Why be so negative, lots of people in Pakistan are still fighting the good fight. Asma Jehangir and Hina Jilani can hop a plane to anywhere instead of risking their lives in Pakistan. Edhi has been threatened by the fundamentalists and the agencies several times but he continues to hold the fort. You can contribute even if you (like me) have fled to the west. There are a number of genuine grass root NGOs and welfare organizations that can use your time and money. Let me know if this interests you.
I wouldn`t worry about the Taleban too much. Afghans (unlike Hindus) don`t have the history (masochistic habit?) of living under tyranny and Taleban will be no exception.
BTW, I am a Pakistani, Sunni Muslim, Punjabi/Mohajir mix; if you are looking for an ehtnic/religious angle to attack :-)
``I am not a Muslim hater but love to hate a certain kind of Momin-CEO kind and also NS kind.``
Mere dost, if CE and NS drive you to kufr, some other jokers like Maulana Sami ul Haq (madam Tahira walay) and Maulana Fazl ur Rehman (aka Mulla Diesel) will drive you to suicide!!
Our fate in this world and the hereafter (if you believe in one) depends on us and us alone, not the BBs and the CEs and the Shia/Sunni/Wahabi mullas. Why be so negative, lots of people in Pakistan are still fighting the good fight. Asma Jehangir and Hina Jilani can hop a plane to anywhere instead of risking their lives in Pakistan. Edhi has been threatened by the fundamentalists and the agencies several times but he continues to hold the fort. You can contribute even if you (like me) have fled to the west. There are a number of genuine grass root NGOs and welfare organizations that can use your time and money. Let me know if this interests you.
I wouldn`t worry about the Taleban too much. Afghans (unlike Hindus) don`t have the history (masochistic habit?) of living under tyranny and Taleban will be no exception.
BTW, I am a Pakistani, Sunni Muslim, Punjabi/Mohajir mix; if you are looking for an ehtnic/religious angle to attack :-)
#104 Posted by tahmed321 on April 2, 2000 11:17:10 pm
Mushtaq Farooqi #105
You write: ``...the way for us to prevent the final push over the abyss is going to come through the efforts and actions of Pakistanis and Pakistanis alone...``
Agreed.
You write: The best blueprint for Pakistan has been offered time and again by Edhi Sattar. He has always advocated self-help``
Agreed. Also, notice that Edhi`s work has been initiated and continues to flourish outside the government.
You write: ``I am now asking you: ... will you be willing to participate and help by actions?``
Yes, I am willing to participate. In this context you mention 3 initiatives: (a) a website portal offering these and other IT related materials; (b) water gathering/preserving cisterns for homes in desert environs; (c) availability of fresh fruit along the highways of Pakistan free of charge.
On (a), this is a good idea, and please advise of URL when ready, and we`ll take it from there. On (b), fresh water is a growing problem for India and Pakistan. So you are certainly on to an important issue, but how will it work? On (c), I dont think the idea (as presented) is workable (who will pay for this, and why?), nor does it address a priority problem.
I agree with you that we should do more of self-help in Pakistan in the model of Edhi, and that it is time we stopped looking towards the government (which has it`s hands full, anyway) and other countries to help us out.
You write: ``...the way for us to prevent the final push over the abyss is going to come through the efforts and actions of Pakistanis and Pakistanis alone...``
Agreed.
You write: The best blueprint for Pakistan has been offered time and again by Edhi Sattar. He has always advocated self-help``
Agreed. Also, notice that Edhi`s work has been initiated and continues to flourish outside the government.
You write: ``I am now asking you: ... will you be willing to participate and help by actions?``
Yes, I am willing to participate. In this context you mention 3 initiatives: (a) a website portal offering these and other IT related materials; (b) water gathering/preserving cisterns for homes in desert environs; (c) availability of fresh fruit along the highways of Pakistan free of charge.
On (a), this is a good idea, and please advise of URL when ready, and we`ll take it from there. On (b), fresh water is a growing problem for India and Pakistan. So you are certainly on to an important issue, but how will it work? On (c), I dont think the idea (as presented) is workable (who will pay for this, and why?), nor does it address a priority problem.
I agree with you that we should do more of self-help in Pakistan in the model of Edhi, and that it is time we stopped looking towards the government (which has it`s hands full, anyway) and other countries to help us out.
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