Famous Last Words or a Messiah in Khakis?

krashid #109

I have a lot of problems in my country, you have a lot of problems in your country. You have thusg in your country, we have thugs in our country.

But I have a Constitution on the basis of which I or any Indian can demand justice or satisfaction even from a governments run by thugs.

What do you have? Who defines a thug? The triples As you so picturesquely say. I`m saying let the fourth A, the Pakistanis take this opportunity to lay groundwork for the future. Who else will do it? Not the triple As, surely? Surely reviewing the Constitution doesnot need Gen PM out of the way?

Sadhana

If you think rule of thugs should be accepted as democracy. The Pakistani nation as a whole says NO.

There is progress towards, democracy at grass root level. Fight against corruption. Improvement in economy inspite of some isolation at international level. Hold of fundamentalist is being reduced in process and there is more peace.

That is the demand of people, whether it is carried out by Musharraf or XYZ what difference does it make. Particularly when our leaders are completely immune to public opinion and look at US for their survival.

Have you heard that our leaders are sustained by:

Triple A. Army, America and Allah.

The basis premise of democracy Awam (people) is missing from equation.

Let us fight our own battle.

You have lot of problems in your country if you keep your eyes open and refuse gto budge with propaganda.

If you believe in Ism. It is past.

Only reality is people.

krashid #106

The vast majority of people who are interested in their own welfare ought to express their wish for their(the peoples`) welfare clearly so that the political/military leadership are forced to think of their(the peoples`) welfare instead of their own. :-)

A cat whether black or white ought not drink all the milk in the house, instead of catching mice.

Sadhana

Sadhna#106

The vast majority of people in any system have opinions. And not all of them carry arms or work for politics. They are interested in their welfare.

Political parties are for leadership. Because it is organized.Big Political parties in our country is an organised groups of thugs.

Small political parties have their own followings, without mass appeal.

The people vote, because there is election and political mafia.

The people want their problems solved and a better future.

As one of the most pragmatic person of last 2-3 decades Deng Xio Ping said ``It does not matter whether the cat is black or white as long as it catches the mice.``

krashid #104

When I said `all interested parties`, I didnot mean only political parties. All Pakistanis are `interested parties`, from each province, from each religious/ethnic dispensation, from the Army, from political parties, tribal leaders, pirs, respected intellectuals representing as wide a cross-section of Pakistan as possible. You tell me since I don`t know what constitutes a comprehensive representation of Pakistan? All need to sit down and talk about the Constitution. Is each citizen out to loot the country? Hard to believe, sounds very self-serving :``You guys are no good, we are the only sincere clean ones, let us rule you for your own benefit``

I will believe that the Army is sincere about Pakistan`s eventual good only if Gen. Musharraf, now having consolidated his position begins to talk of national unity, and that too, totally outside the context of relations with India. Else its only more of the same.

Sadhana

If that was as you are saying, Sadhna.

Why we have to bother.

These parties will sit together on only one point.

``How to make their pocket full``.

What these parties have to do with 13th, or any amendment or even democracy. Their access to National exchequer should be unhindered.

It is probably difficult for you to understand. Try to read between lines, thoughts from Pakistanis.

krashid #102

I meant reviewing the entire Constitution, another look at my posts will show. Isn`t a Constitutional review and sitting down together of all interested parties something that has to happen eventually?

How else will Pakistan get `true` democracy? Surely not through a lightening bolt from the sky.

Sadhana

What happens after the debate.

The 13th amendment is repealed. Elections are held. The same people who because of their excessive power and money are again elected. 13th amendment is again implemented.

We reach there again.

We need constitutional reforms in a way that the power of feudal-industrialist lobby is mitigated.

We need democracy but not the one we had.

krashid #100

``Give me the methods of repealing 13th amendment. Whatever method you want to give. Then we can see it is possible or not.``

Let me request you to reread my mail #78.

To examine/repeal/alter/rationalize laws which have done more harm than good, Gen. PM could appoint a multi-party, multi-ethnic, multi-religious committee representing all sections of society for Constitutional review to make recommendations with a trusted nonpartisan Chairman and proceedings to be made public. The fundamental principle that all citizens are equal could be a worthwhile and noncontroversial(surely) reference point. Unanimity of views could be a good criteria.

Once the recommendations are finalized, whatever method of getting public consent is appropriate can be used, after enough public debate.

Sadhana

Give me the methods of repealing 13th amendment.

Whatever method you want to give. Then we can see it is possible or not.

krashid #98

I still don`t understand why laws like the 13th Amendment cannot be repealed or altered?

Sadhana

Sadhana!

The policies of Pervez Musharraf are pragmatic, possibly in right direction and are appeasing to people.

You have to judge from the fact, that inspite of all international pressures, this Government is able to sustain and to have its recognition.

That may be bad in long run, particularly if army consolidates its grip on power and is accepted internationally. In that case prssure on Pervez Musharraf Government will be much reduced.

The best Pervez Musharraf can do is give constitutional rights to people, which cannot be taken back in future Feudal-Industrialist alliance which is a necessity of Parliamentary system of democracy as practiced in Pakistan.

I think, the plan of democracy at local level will effectively shatter the power of Industrialist-feudal lobby and will be a great administrative step in solving the local problems, which the people want and need most.

krashid #93

It depends on how you look at it.

If Pakistan`s history began with advent of NS and ended with removal of NS, you are on the mark. If not, perhaps you might see many years of military rule and many years of setting national priorities by the military as part of the problem. Leaders in the military setting the national priorities for the future also maynot seem like the absolute best solution.

You say ``Nawaz Sharif tried to put his own man on Army``. Again: cart and horse in proper sequence, please. Wasn`t someone saying NS was the Army`s man? Will the next man they choose to impose on the Pakistani people(after splitting the PML, maybe )be another NS? How will Pakistanis keep control over the next leader?

Anyway, you say under NS, ``people will continue to be subdued and suppressed``

Are people able to influence Gen PM`s policies now? Do he or his functionaries have hearings or audiences or frequent exchange of ideas with the public? Will future leaders feel the need to be different?

You say `` Islamists would be free to have their day and Pakistan would be a second Afghanistan``

Is the fear any less now?

I can understand the need for trusted leaders. However, is the issue so black and white? Anyway, the point is that the current `fluid` situation may allow many things to happen. Laying the right groundwork for future is part of it, surely? Examining how the various provisions in the Constitution have played out could well be one of them.

macgupta referred to an article on the PH board, what do you think of it?

Sadhana

Dragon Slayer #92

I didnot quite get your point. India doesnot have a much better ranking than Pakistan as far as corruption goes. I personally don`t have enough specific information.

Recently there have been a number of articles on how the Central Vigilance Commissioner in N.Delhi is finding it impossible to obtain any legal action against proven corrupt officials. In the political arena, the CBI is currently going after Laloo Yadav(with the timing being a little questionable), but many other seemingly open-and-shut cases against even former Central govt ministers have been tough to carry through the courts.

Not to speak of the hawala racket, illegal commissions in Bofors and other defence deals, and other local scams involving crores of rupees. If you look at bank defaults, I suspect the figure might be pretty shocking. Again, can anyone comment on this?

I think a trader named Harshad Mehta allegedly owes/owed the Govt of India a few thousand crore rupees(and was mentioned in the Union budget)and still trades? Does anyone know any more about this?

Sadhana

Corruption in India,

Kerala being the most `literate` state in India has the most sophisticated and `above board` system of corruption. This was perfected by the marxist govt., legendary for the non-corrupt and gandhian leaders like EMS Namboodirirad and Nayanar.

The entire corruption is handled as party donations, in small denominations, Rs 10 these days. To have a meeting with the minister, you have to meet the local party man. He will give a book of donations and you pay for it. Later you meet the minister who in turn will direct you to his close party man. He will give another set of donation books and if you are lucky, you get the favours.

The marxists created the system of collecting bribes from all competing parties, say for a contract. but finally gave it to the party sympethiser, that is one with a long history of donations.

By this elaborate process of network, every one gets a share of the pie, not the minister alone. Even a local party man has access to `corrupt` money.

Because the governments change so much in kerala, even the opposition parties have influence over award of contracts.

Corruption in pakistan is of another `order`. Govt is proposing legitemisation of smugling by asking the traders to pay a sales tax at Bura markets, traders are telling no...no.. we want to be illegal. Great, the country is joke, what does islam say about Bura market.

Observer #91

((The way you have stated the situation, it would seem that given your premises, India just has the credibility whereas the Pakistanis and Pakistan lack it, or else, you know the answer but wish to see how miserably the rest of us, plebians and pedestrians, fail. Well, I have failed. Now out with the explanation, you tease!))

I regret if the tone of my post seemed sarcastic. It was`nt meant to be. Actually, I dont blame you for feeling that way. Unfortunately, I`m seeing some of us Indians have been particularly nasty with their anti-Pak tirades. Its resulting in very unproductive shouting matches. We are acting just like our politicians:)

Pakistan has traditionally gone out of her way to support & help the Arabs (particularly S Arabia).Even though there was quite a lot of sympathy for Saddam Hussein, Pakistan sent troops to S Arabia`s aid during the gulf war. They have supported the Arabs vociferously in every diplomatic venture against Israel, even sent their pilots during the Arab Israeli war. The Palestinians stabbed S Arabia & Kuwait in the back & supported Saddam. I mean, what more can Pakistan do to demonstrate solidarity!?

Despite all that, its pretty pathetic that the wealthy Arab states can only give polite murmurs of empathy to Pakistan on Kashmir. Isnt Kashmir one of the prime foreign policy issues of Pakistan--ever since independance?

India is heavily dependant on Arab oil, trade & jobs in the gulf. Potentially, the rich Arabs states have much more clout & arm twisting power than the US--in that respect.

If the Arabs threaten an embargo, what can India do? The Arabs can easily trade & import workers from other countries. India just doesnt have the muscle to threaten them militarily.

I am genuinely puzzled at the lack of Arab reciprocity to Pakistan. I dont believe India has more credibility. Personally, I think Pakistan is getting a raw deal from them. I would have expected more from friends.

Any comments? --anybody?