The Point

again, i observed the same action; the night before the chand raat of this Eid...in The Point...and those guys were there for 5-6 hours and circuiting the buliding and finding the potential Innocent Targets. But none of the chic dared to complaint to security personnels. And i stand gazing them helplessly....

again, i observed the same action; the night before the chand raat of this Eid...in The Point...and those guys were there for 5-6 hours and circuiting the buliding and finding the potential Innocent Targets. But none of the chic dared to complaint to security personnels. And i stand gazing them helplessly....

Hello,

Vivid recollections of the final bell at school, kids rushing out, racing to the exit or to the canteen wanting to buy that packet of slims with the last of the money they had.

Balding, pan-chewing, beer-bellied men waiting near the exits or the canteens, shirts out, flies unzipped.....

And all we ever did was gossip and talk...i guess we are all ``good mussulmaans`` after all.

i think you did very right. i know number of friends (good, well educated, family background) who do these kinds of activitites to gals in crowded place. like exhibitions, concerts, and so on in khi. i have never been able to understand this pleasure.

these people should be discouraged at all cost, so that they dont even think of it. they should be treated strictly.

Shandana,

what qualifies as paki-bashing is some of the not so sane people across the border picking on this incident and arguing against the creation of this country.

I guess I was wrong. We can`t stop talking about the problems in our country because the others criticise us for them. I accept. Thanx for a lively discussion.

yasir

yasir,

good for you :) i`m glad you don`t care who is watching, but i`m still confused about how this qualifies as pakibashing.

khalida,

thanks. as for doing to him what he did to me, he would probably have enjoyed it. what i really wanted to do was kick him, really hard, so that he bent over, and then bring my knee up and break his nose.see, i did take taekwondo once :) but violence is something i try and avoid.

shandana

Hey Shandana,

I think that it is wonderful that you did what you did...It is high time that people like the Mulla be shown that they just cannot continue on like this...However I feel that in order to give him a sip from his own wine, you should have put your hand in between his legs and pushed hard...just like the way he did. Only then he would have realised that how does it feel to be touched in this way. Anyway hope you do not forget to do this next time. Take care.

#: 115

slink

:))))

It went exactly the way I feared. I never said that you should not talk about this issue because it also happens in other parts of the world. All I feared was another Pakistan-bashing. And never did I want to insinuate that you were not the only one. I only wanted others to know that its very much common and happens in much more difficult to manage situations than the one confronted by you.

As for washing the dirty linen. I am guilty of not shedding light on this subject cause the first time it happened to me I was barely into my teens. The next few times I remained a silent spectator too. But I have been able to wash the dirty linen of other people eventually when I was of proper age. I am afriad that it did leave them in pretty bad shape. Not that I would like to advertise this but I have also fought with bus conductors for touching women who were no relation to me. Being of 18 years of age has left me pretty confused as to how men could dare do such a thing to women and children. But I am not ashamed to wash this dirty linen in public. Neither did I care then if india, middle east, america and europe was watching nor do I care now.

Yasir

peeping,

i don`t live in india,middle east, america or europe.i live in pakistan. this is why we can`t solve our problems, we`re too busy looking around to see who`s watching and trying to save face. forget india, middle east, america or europe, deal with the reality of pakistan first. as for my not being the only one, where have i suggested that? and i am indeed thankful that i was at the point and could call the guards, but if you think this is the first and only time this has happened, it isn`t. it`s happened in all sorts of places, and my writing about it is simply an attempt to get people talking about it so we can work together to do something about it. of course, since people seem to have taken this as a religious issue rather than a social one,that might be a little difficult, but i`m sure that conscientious, pious people like you who know better than to wash your dirty linen in public will do something about it, just as soon as india, middle east, america and europe stop watching.

shandana

Sahndana,

I know it was very hurtful difficult for you. But,

you were not the only one. There are countless women out there who sadly are not groped at posh places like the Point but places where they are helpless. And we should not count out Homes, should we? Just think of those who are hurt this way and who have no guards to complain to.

What to talk of women. I being a male have suffered the trauma of being groped while travelling in public bus while being a school student. I am completely comfortable with this sharing of your trauma with the chowk community. What I am not comfortable with is the wrong impression that our Indian friends are getting out of this. Let me tell you. A person who gets sick enough to play with other peoples genitals has no religion, no morals, no faith and no nationality. Let us not criticise the Muslims or Pakistanis. As if these things do not happen in India, Middle East, America and Europe.

Post # 109:

Nopes. BTW, who are/were these elitist ones ? Writers ?

I just quoted one example of a friend of mine. There are quite a few of them(Pakistani Women) who are acting as diplomats of Pakistan in Engineering & Sciences/I.T. areas all over the world.

Her article was published in International Org of Pakistani Women Engineers`(IOPWE) Newsletter as she is a born and bred Pakistani. We were together at Kinnaird and Engineering University Lahore. I feel far more proud to quote such friends who were born and bred Pakistani Women than the ones who grew up in US. It may be due to the fact that I myself am in those shoes therefore can relate to such scenarios.

Sha`yud`?

PM!

I did not give the example of Iran and China to be followed.

I gave it as examples of countries with independent approach (not under the influence of super power).

If you see the history of Muslim World, even in English rule their family law was taken into account.

I don`t know much about philosophy of Imran Khan except ``Brown Sahib`` philosophy he propagated and later married Jemima.

My thinking is like you suggested, education, economic independence etc. But the leadership is always from within the society. And every leadership including Bhutto and Jinnah (two most secular persons) realized the importance of religion in people`s life.

You know who is in the forefront of fight against religious fundamentalism at intellectual level. Irshad Ahmed Haqqani, once I think propaganda secretary of Jamat Islami. Another person of note is one of the top leader of people`s party Maulana Kausar Niazi, once General Secretary of Jamat-e-Islami.

This process will speed up once we get more economic independence. In a poor economy what you can expect.

Instead of taking arms for bad purpose. people are taking arms for some higher aim. It is a golden opportunity for agitators like Jamat-e-Islami.

The incident was unfortunate but in a way you are right that it has been

``used`` as another opportunity to berate muslim sensibilities.

If the replies in her support were not so full of hatred for Islam,I would

not have understood them somewhat.

But you cannot give the sense of self-respect to BA BA Blacksheep,their

inferiority complex is too deep now.Let them be as they are.Educated people

in Pakistan & elsewhere already ridicule them a lot.

Please keep exposing the un-Islamists.Help them to make up their minds.

May Allah give them the courage to learn.

krashid:

``First of all your premise that theoretical aspect is very important compared to practical aspect is wrong as far as social thories are concerned. The prime example is Communism ...``

It is not a question of which aspect is more important, but of how one impacts on the other, and the sustainability of too much divergence between the two. If anything, your example of Communism in the East bloc serves to illustrate my point: societies that do not match in action what they espouse in principle are bound to crumble.

You mention Iran and China...Iran`s case is too new to serve as an example of anything. Who is to say what the greater freedoms given to the people, even presumably under the policy of a more tolerant Islam, will lead to? Give a people a taste of freedom and they will not be content with half-measures. Let me correct that... Give a PROUD people... I should say. Pakistanis by and large still have a feudal mentality (whether ruling or being ruled) and as such, regrettably are not a proud people who desire freedom.

Comparisons with Iran are also irrelevant becasue Iran is Shia; Pakistan Sunni. You and YLH keep talkking about interpretation.... I am tiring of pointing out that there are some matters that leave very little room for interpretation, esp. in Sunni fiqhs. I will not get into it again, but may I ask you to kindly post your own answers to the the two questions put to Asif Naqshbandi by sac (I think) in post #13 (or so) on YLH`s current article`s board. Tell me how far you can credibly stretch your interpretation of the Quran on those matters. (I think they had to do with political equality of all citizens, and Huddood ordinance.)

Would appreciate your response on the above, either on this board or on ylh`s.

China`s social and economic systems are far from laizzez faire. It is only in a few major cities that you will see what appears to be free market capitalism. This is all very carefully regulated, mind you. The economic and social condition of the rest of the country is quite different. Neither does this confirm your theory. China is not a democracy. The people`s voice has little to do with policy setting. Such a disparity between the theory and practice could only work in such an undemocratic set-up, where the rulers , unaccounatble to the people, may violate ideological principles when they see expediency in it. Remember Tiannanmen Square nine years ago? Personally, I think Pakistan needs a Chinese-like regime at least for a decade, gradually yeilding power back to the people as they are educated on democractic rule through better district level autonomy and institution building.

In fact, ten years may be too optimistic, given the entrenched feudal outlook of much of the population, both `educated` and otherwise.

``It is not the strength of fundamentalist in our country. It is the weakness of liberals that they cannot provide leadership.``

I agree that the `weakness of the liberals` has played a major role in bringing Pakistan to it`s current state of anomie, but if the reactionary actions of (militant) fundamentalists the world over is anything to go by, we have even more to fear from them. In Pakistan`s current state of economic hardship and visible affluence in the midst of much poverty, fundamentalism will necessarily have an ugly face... much like the bolsheviks, French petti bourgeois and anti-Shah demonstrators... We do not need to take that route to a (distant) freedom. To put it one way, we must choose between two devils, both of which we know.

``To tell you more does Iran has no bribe, no adultery etc etc``.

krashid sahib... I do not know wher you get your information on the lack of bribery etc... but a point to be made is that ``virtue`` under duress is no virtue at all. The true measure of success of an ideology is when virtue is practised with minimal fear of punishment-- in freedom. Otherwise, all ``virtue`` could be simply enforced in a totalitarian regime. Would you consider such a society ideal? If so, then what are you doing in the US of A.????

``The problem with current fundamentalism is not that it believes in God as law giver....``

You are absolutely right. There is nothing wrong with the belief in divine laws. The problem only arises when one attempts to codify the same into political legislature. To assume that the problem is `only of interpretation` and can easily be ironed out is to be too simplistic. This automatically raises the question of whose interpretation is to be followed? Shia? Sunni? (Barelvi? Deobandi? Wahabi?)

I have been calling for the incorporation of the spirit, if not letter, of Islam into the Law. Lately, however, I have come to see that this will not do! We already have more than the mere spirit of Islamic Law informing our constitution (what with huddod ordinances, blasphemy laws and the like). Yet, the religous Right is not satisfied. So what exactly are you, krashid, and ylh asking for? Less, or more Islamic law?

I think the spirit of any religion is not something that can be imposed on a political system from without. It is only something that can be reflected in observance and implementation of laws. Imran Khan was on the dot when he said that many Western countries have a more Islamic system than Pakistan`s. He was talking not only of the social welfare systems, I think, but also of the spirit in which law is upheld. That spirit, my friends, is not something that any amount of law-making can foster (but something that too much stringency CAN destroy!!).

At least among all of us here on the chowk (with a couple or three notable exceptions), there seems to be a rough consensus on what is desirable for Paksitani society... a more enlightend population living within the spirit of the best values of Islam (respect for others, `family values`, care for the needy, devotion to a Cause higher than ourselves). I do believe that, stripped of it`s situational (6th. century arabian) elements, that is what is left. (And before someone`s points it out to me, yes, those are the ideals of any enlightened society, except, maybe for the ``devotion to...`` part, which is where religious systems wil always differ from purely secular ones.. and find their greatest strength too!)

So, maybe it`s time we stopped bickering over philosophical niceties and started looking for practical solutions to the gravest problems afflicting Pakistan... education, education and education. The vaccum it`s absence creates is fast being filled by vile forces of intolerance and hatred.

(I seriously wonder how much good we can do 10000 miles away from where the action is. We can justify our distance on ecnomic or `professional development` grounds, but I often wonder how much of that is in keeping with the `spirit of Islam`)

(If this sounds high and mighty, sorry... there are aome things that need to be said even at that risk!)

regards,

PM

ZAHRA:

Is Sarah Haider the scion of the illustrious Haider family:you know Q.Ain,or Mustafa or Salahuddin.

Of course then,I should not be surprised at all.

__________________________________________________

wassalaam

PM

First of all your premise that theoretical aspect is very important compared to practical aspect is wrong as far as social thories are concerned. The prime example is Communism which takes all power from Capital and give it to people, but practically it gives power to Beaureacracy. And people working for common good end up not working.

The practical application is an important criteria.Particularly if it is spread over centuries.

It is not the strength of fundamentalist in our country. It is the weakness of liberals that they cannot provide leadership. The reason is obvious, if you think that we have the capability to run steel mill and fly air plane but not making them. Our intelligentia is basically ``Gumashta Sarmayadar`` of economics. i.e it absorbs whatever from West and applies it ditto (to the book). I have no intention to spare myself. Afterall I have to survive and keep a status for my family. But I have known many brilliant minds who are in oblivion. We need a nation of those brilliant minds and orientation towards independent status (much like China or Iran where the direction is very appropriate).

The problem with current fundamentalism is not that it believes in God as law giver. But problem is that interpretation of law and fulfilling the will of God.

You can keep India aside. The single center of Muslims was initially Baghdad and later Turkey. And in those countries there was Islamic rule.

(To tell you more does Iran has no bribe, no adultery etc etc). In any society there are bound to be fundamentalist, and liberals. Right and left. This fight will continue.

On the level of whites I will give you few examples to judge for yourself, on what factors IQ depends (Although IQ test is mostly related to education level)

Jews used to live in ghettos and apart from business were not considered very sharp in scientific fields and were considered inferior by whites. Before their massacre in holocaust they formed 1% of Germany population and 17% of Nobel laureate from Germany were jews. Europe was in dark ages as you mentioned. And at that time Muslims were at the peak of their activities.

Compare cities with far flung village Like Karachi to Thar regarding IQ. If you are taking adults only you will find a lot of difference.

So you can judge that IQ is not dependent upon genetic superiority but still people believe it.