Pakistan, India and the Spirit of Chowk
Rehan Rizvi July 13, 2000
#102 Posted by Winstonav on August 7, 2000 10:34:34 pm
Rehan R. and Contemplative.
Some of your predecessors have already showed their back. They never heard of going to the gallows for what you believe in.
More power to both of you, and other like-minded Chowk-sair-walas. (CSWs)
C: I think RR was lamenting not as much the pro-Indian attitude as he was, the //anti-Pakistani//. And perhaps the namby pamby ``agree-with-the-spirit-but-not-the-sentiment`` crowd. This is the crowd which forgets that they are condoning the public anti-Pakistani public defecation of those who advise them to ``grow up`` while they are, themselves, haaaaardly out of their own diapers.
This crowd comprises of Self-styled academic mullahs. They make my stomach turn. Ever heard of fence straddlers?
Well, a bad query: There are (at leas) two types of fence straddlers. One, who are very sharp, self-serving, conscience-less, double faced, and scum of the earth. And two, ones without brains. How do you tell the two apart? Well, the second type have vacant eyes and have drool coming out of the corners of their mouths. You must forgive me if I am beginning to sound like another friend`s post. This ``station`` is used by a large Group, and I just read a post left by one of my colleagues on the screen, in this case a family member; for the Group too, however, individual ``opening`` codes, are used assuring a nearly hundred percent security.
This is the crowd which forgets that they are condoning the public anti-Pakistani public defecation of those who advise them to ``grow up`` while they are, themselves, haaaaardly out of their own diapers.
Or others who are so enamoured with their ``freshly-imported`` Arabian names that they can`t even stand themselves. I remember him saying, in response to a CSW`s question about a writer`s name if it were a new name and in vogue in Pakistan, that it was an arrogant question! Whereas the writer herself cheerfully answered that question and added some cheer to it to boot. (The questioner had such new names ln mind as ``Donia``, ``Zoia`` etc.)
This fellow, however, is blind to the fact that this name was ``tested`` and given up long time ago in India and Pakistan.
[And in the act of reminding RR that he has done the same thing as the writers he (RR) accuses of, for pointing out the folly and vitriol against! Powerful argument, wouldn``t you say?
Forgetting, however, as all small minds are wont to do, that by pointing this out he is doing the same to RR. That is, violating RR`s freedom of expression, NOT of aggression as RR seemed to have done; not only that but also accusing, by virtue of the very nature of his post, RR of being anti-India, which.... Do you see it is an unbroken, unbreaking circle!
Unfettered freedom to get in the Chowk indicates either the dearth, weakness, or the fear of the Chowk moderators or the eventual cosequence of it becoming muddy, filthy, ... you complete the sentence.
Then there is a promise of vacating the Chowk from its sair by one. I wondered why this ``Chore Ki Darrhi maiN tinka?`` RR didn`t NAME people. So, I reread his essay. Sure enough this person, or any,(none!) was mentioned. Then I saw that name again a few times in the same link.
You see, I have read five people say that, for different reasons, they would be leaving Chowk. Three stayed away. Two came back. One of the original re-left and stayed away. That leaves one. BACK ON POPULAR LOVING PUBLIC DEMAND!
Some of your predecessors have already showed their back. They never heard of going to the gallows for what you believe in.
More power to both of you, and other like-minded Chowk-sair-walas. (CSWs)
C: I think RR was lamenting not as much the pro-Indian attitude as he was, the //anti-Pakistani//. And perhaps the namby pamby ``agree-with-the-spirit-but-not-the-sentiment`` crowd. This is the crowd which forgets that they are condoning the public anti-Pakistani public defecation of those who advise them to ``grow up`` while they are, themselves, haaaaardly out of their own diapers.
This crowd comprises of Self-styled academic mullahs. They make my stomach turn. Ever heard of fence straddlers?
Well, a bad query: There are (at leas) two types of fence straddlers. One, who are very sharp, self-serving, conscience-less, double faced, and scum of the earth. And two, ones without brains. How do you tell the two apart? Well, the second type have vacant eyes and have drool coming out of the corners of their mouths. You must forgive me if I am beginning to sound like another friend`s post. This ``station`` is used by a large Group, and I just read a post left by one of my colleagues on the screen, in this case a family member; for the Group too, however, individual ``opening`` codes, are used assuring a nearly hundred percent security.
This is the crowd which forgets that they are condoning the public anti-Pakistani public defecation of those who advise them to ``grow up`` while they are, themselves, haaaaardly out of their own diapers.
Or others who are so enamoured with their ``freshly-imported`` Arabian names that they can`t even stand themselves. I remember him saying, in response to a CSW`s question about a writer`s name if it were a new name and in vogue in Pakistan, that it was an arrogant question! Whereas the writer herself cheerfully answered that question and added some cheer to it to boot. (The questioner had such new names ln mind as ``Donia``, ``Zoia`` etc.)
This fellow, however, is blind to the fact that this name was ``tested`` and given up long time ago in India and Pakistan.
[And in the act of reminding RR that he has done the same thing as the writers he (RR) accuses of, for pointing out the folly and vitriol against! Powerful argument, wouldn``t you say?
Forgetting, however, as all small minds are wont to do, that by pointing this out he is doing the same to RR. That is, violating RR`s freedom of expression, NOT of aggression as RR seemed to have done; not only that but also accusing, by virtue of the very nature of his post, RR of being anti-India, which.... Do you see it is an unbroken, unbreaking circle!
Unfettered freedom to get in the Chowk indicates either the dearth, weakness, or the fear of the Chowk moderators or the eventual cosequence of it becoming muddy, filthy, ... you complete the sentence.
Then there is a promise of vacating the Chowk from its sair by one. I wondered why this ``Chore Ki Darrhi maiN tinka?`` RR didn`t NAME people. So, I reread his essay. Sure enough this person, or any,(none!) was mentioned. Then I saw that name again a few times in the same link.
You see, I have read five people say that, for different reasons, they would be leaving Chowk. Three stayed away. Two came back. One of the original re-left and stayed away. That leaves one. BACK ON POPULAR LOVING PUBLIC DEMAND!
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#101 Posted by Bina on July 31, 2000 4:07:18 am
Hey, thanks, I don`t often get called a sweetheart on here for my views. As for starting my own zine, no way! I couldn`t compete with Spider at this point :)
#100 Posted by contemplative on July 29, 2000 8:59:15 pm
I agree with Mr. Rizvi`s thoughts - though some of his understandable exasperation shows through in his reaction to some of the pro-Indian emails.
The point is that one invites discussion and critiques and different points of view on this forum and of course there are some Indians who have made welcome and respected contributions and enhanced the discussion.
But then again there are some Indians who come on just to badmouth Pakistanis and Pakistan and provide no sharing of views. Such Indians employ personal attacks like ``Grow Up``, ``Shut the border with Pakistan and interact with Nepal and Tibet because there is nothing we want to learn from Pakistan.`` etc. etc.
What is the use of this? What possible benefit can come from this? This is no sharing of views in the spirit of democracy and the first amendment - these are antogonizing insults - which are sometimes tolerated and sometimes not.
THis is what Rizvi and others are speaking about. And I completely agree with them.
On AOL discussion groups this kind of sentiment has devolved into the most deplorable mud fest where icons of both countries are shred apart - the only purpose being to rent spleen and denigrate not to critique and present a different point of view.
The point is that one invites discussion and critiques and different points of view on this forum and of course there are some Indians who have made welcome and respected contributions and enhanced the discussion.
But then again there are some Indians who come on just to badmouth Pakistanis and Pakistan and provide no sharing of views. Such Indians employ personal attacks like ``Grow Up``, ``Shut the border with Pakistan and interact with Nepal and Tibet because there is nothing we want to learn from Pakistan.`` etc. etc.
What is the use of this? What possible benefit can come from this? This is no sharing of views in the spirit of democracy and the first amendment - these are antogonizing insults - which are sometimes tolerated and sometimes not.
THis is what Rizvi and others are speaking about. And I completely agree with them.
On AOL discussion groups this kind of sentiment has devolved into the most deplorable mud fest where icons of both countries are shred apart - the only purpose being to rent spleen and denigrate not to critique and present a different point of view.
#99 Posted by rehanrizvi on July 20, 2000 10:00:19 pm
Bradaram Temporal and Feroz (and all others who have had unanswered comments or questions for me in the past and regarding this article):
Yaro I sincerely hope that you two especially (and the other chowkwallas as well) will give me a big big maafi, equal to a presidential pardon for the crime I’m guilty of: yes mi amigos, my repeated failure to respond to your comments and interacts on multiple occasions. I’m guilty as hell and would not dare give any reason for my this particular shortcoming. I know that you guys don’t take it personally, but still….I really appreciate all the feedback and since I can’t answer all the comments and interacts, I’ll do my best to try to respond as much as I can.
Temporal #1:
“Any objective read will determine Chowk to be Pakistan-centric. In discussing Pakistani related excesses why is an affront to us if we call a spade a spade but turn an accusing finger at the Indians who do the same?”
Dear brother, I suppose a lot of people disagree, though wrongfully, with you and me on Chowk being “Pakistan-centric”. I would refer you to Bina’s #79 beautiful comment on the matter and would leave it at that.
As for non-Pakistanis, regardless of origin, pointing out Pakistan’s weaknesses, I’d remind you of your own family. No matter how strongly you disagree with your family members on different issues, you wouldn’t want any neighbors, passersby or others of sort badmouthing about your little brother or your sister or your parents or would you? Pakistan is no different only that its bigger family. Just keep that in mind.
Scout #3: Thanks yar and yes I’m aware of your feelings and have respect for them. Keep up the good work albeit without hostile and abusive language.
Saima #5: Hi female Muslim Pakistani : ) I respect your desire to keep it as an open forum to tear down the wall of suspicion and mistrust between the two neighbors. I support you on that. But I also want Chowk to continue as a home away from home for Pakistanis. It would be sad if anyone takes it away from us in the name of freedom of speech, taken-for-granted openness, higher ideals or commercial considerations. Best wishes for your hard work and commitment. I know you and other Chowk team would continue to make us proud of you and your baby. Thank you for your kind words. ;) Take care.
Fhn #11: Dear Fhn, I respect your sentiments and would leave it that. I liked your tea and pinky comment. No it’s not that kind of club but there’s nothing wrong with friendly chit-chat if you can communicate the same things in a friendly manner now is there? Thanks for the comments.
Shandana #14: “sure i want to smack people (though they might not necessarily be indian)”
It says a lot about you doesn’t it? : ) no my dear sister the point is not smacking or excluding people. Whatever it is that the communication between the two neighbors can achieve with such hostile attitudes expressed by so many, it shouldn’t take away our privilige to come to Chowk expecting good articles on various subjects, a good deal on issues relating to Pakistan, and witty and intelligent interacts about them. And do you really want it to grow into “what appears to be a xenophobic skinhead :)”
Oh, and I’ve gotta make a slight complain to you here: why do you on occasions let your emotions make you read stuff in touchy articles that isn’t there? For example, “whats the point of a bunch of like minded people sitting around and stroking each other egos?” Did I imply anything like that in my article? Or do you like people to brutalize new and upcoming writers (even veterans when they are not at their best) so badly that they won’t dare send another piece to chowk? Just wondering…Thanks for your comments.
Krashid #17: “I think temporal has given a good suggestion. Skip the post you don`t like.”
I am taking your advice with all my heart. : ) However, sometimes it isn’t easy looking through dozens of posts only to find the same accusations and counter-accusations thrown at each other in the name of dialogue. Thanks for the comments.
Fairdinkum #18: “This piece is more divisive and heartbreaking than all the rude posts from our Indian/Pakistani friends put together.” I’m sorry if broke your heart. But I don’t think your assessment is accurate. There are people who’d disagree with you on that. Thanks for the comments.
Cheraym #19: Dear fellow Chowkwalla, you and a great number of good people like you restore my confidence in people across the border. Not that I have anything against them or anything. Just the kind of rude and insensitive comments that I’ve been accused of making are made be a FEW ill-intentioned people who don’t want the two countries to ever come closer and bridge the decades old gulf. By keep poking into the same old wounds, they are determined to not let the healing cure our ills. Yes, people on both sides are guilty of it and I’m sorry for anything that I have said that contributed to it. Let’s keep talking with each other and not at each other more often. And by talking about subjects other than India and Pakistan, and by avoiding the obligatory derogatory remarks about Islam and Hinduism, we can perhaps develop the kind of relationship that Iran’s Khatami wants to develop between Islam and the West. People of India and Pakistan have much more in comman that East and West ever will. Keep the spirit alive and we shall prevail. Thanks so much for you comments.
Brat #20: “there are numerous beautiful poems and articles, and it`s up to us to continue sharing these thoughts.” So true. Let’s make sure that it stays that way. Thanks.
Layman #21: “for those who want to cut-paste from other websites or give vent to Kashmir, India-Pak, Hindu-Muslim etc, there can be separate discussion boards where this can be allowed.” You are absolutely on the dot here dear friend. Let’s focus our thoughts on this track. Thanks.
Nameless #22: “The article displays all the characteristics of the Lucknowvi nawabzadas”. How did you know??? : )
Aakar patel #23: “i am in complete agreement with you: i do not think it is possible for indians and pakistanis to co-e-xist on the internet (our fault, mainly).” Dear akaar, no it’s not what I have demanded, implied or in anyway suggested. I mainly requested a qualified restraint of anti-Pakistan and anti-Islam comments when they are not even remotely relevant to the subject matter. Same goes with anti-India and anti-Hinduism comments by Pakistanis. Does this make it clear? Thanks for the comments.
Godot #29: “But I also believe that these hate-mongers are not true representatives of their group.” Couldn’t agree more. I think you’ve got it right dear Godot and I’ve a feeling that most people agree that its okay to admit when you’re wrong and not okay to continue to show distasteful behavior by being obnoxious all the time. Thanks for the comments.
Temporal #32: “Thanks to Allah, politics, media and madressahs and MOST IMPORTANATLY lack of any physical contacts with the Indians and the resulting xenophobia (munh pay ram ram: bagh’l maiN chuhri) they appear to be open or closet fanatics programmed to react in a certain and predictable way.”
Dear brother temporal, is the comment directed towards me in particular or us “Pakis” in general? And isn’t your attempt to please our friends from India has gone a bit far by including Allah among all that is wrong? You talk of xenophobia and yet “Thanx Abid” clearly conveys India’s own successful programming working as good if not better as Pakistan’s? Using RanaRansher’s style, I’d say why art thou not fair? Is it possible that by traveling to India you consider yourself more enlightened and whatever “physical contact” you may have had in India may not be a fair gauge to summarily declare an entire population of one particular strand or another? Waiting for answers…while staring at a coin.
Haraf #35: Agree with most of what you have to say. You might wanna re-read the article and then my post #30 to get a clear idea of what “I want.” Thanks anyway.
Ylh #43: Dear Yasser, you are a passionate young man and Pakistan needs more committed people like you. However, I must remind you too of the advantages of being restrained as much as you can. By letting others push your buttons, you seem to let others get to you. Don’t let anyone mess with your head. Be cool and read as much as you can about each of the people you admire, so you know what they stood for. Hang in there and keep up the good work.
Taimurmalik #45: Dear taimur, thanks for the comments. I would very much like to take your word for trusting all at Chowk. Let’s hope that you are right.
The happyone #44 and #46: Interesting analysis there happyone. Food for thought. You have a great sense of humor and I really enjoyed your comments. However, with all due respect, I disagree with your “resounding NO” and without going too much into detail would like you read the rest of my post and that of Bina #79 on this matter. Thanks.
Kant Patel #49: “I wondered whether I would have to disclose that at the outset everytime I interact on this forum! Wondered if the Indians, then what about the Ahmediyas and Shias!” Although I have cleared the air about my intentions and wants for the upteenth time, I couldn’t ignore the above comment. It would be wrong for you to lump together Indians (a nationality) Ahmadiyas (a breakaway religion) and Shias (a Muslim sect to which I belong too) in the same sentence. It may be politically convenient for you to identify with supposed minorities but the three have completely different histories and standings in the Pakistani society. Just thought you might wanna know. Otherwise, thanks for the comments.
Macgupta #52: With all the disagreements that you may have, your’s is a positive comment and I appreciate it. Thanks
Kazeem #53: Much of it is well put and I thank you for it.
BroadVision: #54: You are beautiful BV. If my article could achieve even half of that, I’d consider it a job well done. I hope and pray that you are right. Thanks a bunch.
SameerJB #55: I agree with a lot of what you say Sameer, except for sacrificing values for any cause, and sincerely hope that we can get away from the crap and get on with the good stuff. Thanks.
Rsaxena #57: “Is it just me or is there an imagined paranoia amongst many Pakistanis about Indians not accepting Pakistan?” No my dear Mr. Saxena, it is not about Pakistanis’ paranoia about India not accepting Pakistan. It’s the mourning at the loss of motherland that Indians have been so keen to express in no uncertain terms when they, without conceding, though secretly wishing, that they want Pakistan to again become part of India, resign to the only thing they CAN do, and which is lamenting at the Pakistanis that Pakistan was, is and will continue to be a mistake that Muslims made 50 years ago. And all the direct and indirect comments made to point out the supposed contradictions in Pakistan are an attempt in this direction which will achieve nothing but contempt for such futile efforts. Separate we are yes and will remain so. But you cannot win by verbally, physically or diplomatically wishing Pakistan to wither away like a bad dream and a profound mistake made at the expense of the Greater India. Sorry if I offended you but perhaps I’m doing my bit to continue the dialogue to end the misconceptions about what is possible and what is not about each other. Thanks for the post.
Shankar #60: For whatever it is worth, you are welcome. And I’d like to tender my apologies for any negative and offensive comments made by anyone against you or India or others from India. It is a shame if anyone has made such low remarks about others regardless of who they are. I am sorry and hope that people have learned much from this interaction would behave more seriously next time they encounter an unpleasant comment.
Ferozk #62: You are a brother. However, you may be wrong that “those who hate India or Pakistan will do so regardless of the reasons and there is no sense in trying to convince them otherwise” . I am not trying to convince people to stop whatever they think of each other. That’s up to them to decide. However, how and how often they express their feelings is a matter of public policy and THAT is a matter that should not be taken lightly. Good thing you didn’t trust your instincts. I need all the people on board to make my argument. Thanks for the comments. What do you think about Oppenhiemer’s book and its repercussions on Hillary’s campaign?
Veeresh #63: “approach the WWF and get them to stage Indo-Pak wrestling bouts at Wagah-Attari” Now that would be a sight for the world to see. Jhara vs. Ajit singh. Or whoever is now ruling the akhara on either side of the border. Not a bad idea at all.
Iqbak_kasim #64: I respect your sentiment and would like to thank you for your input. While agreeing with some of the things, I can’t agree with many of the things you have suggested for reasons I have explained. Thanks for the comments though. Pakistan and India can be characterized better as Siamese twins separated at birth by a sword instead of a surgery. How’s that? Yes, I agree things need to be sorted out, if the intention is pure it can be done.
Ussa #66: Well put and yes its only a few individuals who spoil it for all. Thanks for the comments.
Ras Siddiqui #68: I have great respect for you and would like to thank you for your comments. But nobody is being defensive about anything. It’s a matter of sorting out a matter that has bothered a lot of people and there’s nothing wrong with that. I’ll leave it at that.
Musafir #71: Dear musafir, thank you for your beautiful comments, very philosophical and poignant. And the poem too. Thanks so much.
Cbb #73: Dear cbb, thanks for the comments. This post and the #30 one should answer some of your concerns.
RanaRansher #75: Rana ji long time no see? I asked temporal a short while ago about your whereabouts, really. Are you planning on going to Toronto in September or would you rather watch it on TV? As for the article, I think I’ve tried my best to answer yours and others similar comments and questions to the best of my ability. If there’s anything else, I’d be more than happy to talk about it. Thanks for the reply.
Howard Stern #77: I strongly suspect that you are the same respondent who defended HS as chotu in #40. Nice try, though.
Anamika #78: And your point being? BTW I’m neither but thanks for your comments.
Bina #79: “Personally I like the fact that Chowk started out as a place where Pakistanis could express their views. I`d like to see it continue with that flavor, but the interaction of South Asians from all over the world is what makes it a very healthy place. I wouldn`t like to see Chowk lose its Pakistani spirit; there aren`t many places like this one out there on the Web. Perhaps Chowk should be seen as a country that welcomes visitors from everywhere but still keeps its Pakistani identity intact. A strong enough Web site, like a strong enough country, should be able to coexist with neighbors, absorb others, and do all of the above with dignity!”
You are a sweetheart Bina. I couldn’t resist copying your entire post here. I couldn’t have said it better myself. Thanks so much for summarizing the whole POV in such a concise statement. BTW have you thought about starting your own zine after leaving spider?
Mumbaiite #81: Thank you my friend I couldn’t agree more.
Essensaur #82: Well quoted and yes that should be the spirit. Thank you.
Sadna #83:
``Umr bhar apne garebaa`n se ulajhne waale
Tu mujhe mere hi saaye se daraata kya hai``
How about this:
Har Aik baat Kehtay Ho Tum Kay Tu Kia Hay
Tumhee Kaho Kay Ye Andaze Guftugu Kia Hay
Ravivarma #85: No it doesn’t hurt to listen to other’s opinion expressed in a decent and fair manner. Please do accept my apologies if I or others on Chowk have hurt your feelings. Thanks for the comments.
Jawahara #94: Dear Jawahara, I believe I have answered most of the concerns you raised in your comments elsewhere. Please do continue to write and read on Chowk as you have been doing so well in the past. Thanks for your comments.
I would like to thank everyone again for taking the time to register your thoughts and opinions and sincerely hope that all of you will continue to make Chowk a place that it should be.
Take care,
Rehan Rizvi.
Yaro I sincerely hope that you two especially (and the other chowkwallas as well) will give me a big big maafi, equal to a presidential pardon for the crime I’m guilty of: yes mi amigos, my repeated failure to respond to your comments and interacts on multiple occasions. I’m guilty as hell and would not dare give any reason for my this particular shortcoming. I know that you guys don’t take it personally, but still….I really appreciate all the feedback and since I can’t answer all the comments and interacts, I’ll do my best to try to respond as much as I can.
Temporal #1:
“Any objective read will determine Chowk to be Pakistan-centric. In discussing Pakistani related excesses why is an affront to us if we call a spade a spade but turn an accusing finger at the Indians who do the same?”
Dear brother, I suppose a lot of people disagree, though wrongfully, with you and me on Chowk being “Pakistan-centric”. I would refer you to Bina’s #79 beautiful comment on the matter and would leave it at that.
As for non-Pakistanis, regardless of origin, pointing out Pakistan’s weaknesses, I’d remind you of your own family. No matter how strongly you disagree with your family members on different issues, you wouldn’t want any neighbors, passersby or others of sort badmouthing about your little brother or your sister or your parents or would you? Pakistan is no different only that its bigger family. Just keep that in mind.
Scout #3: Thanks yar and yes I’m aware of your feelings and have respect for them. Keep up the good work albeit without hostile and abusive language.
Saima #5: Hi female Muslim Pakistani : ) I respect your desire to keep it as an open forum to tear down the wall of suspicion and mistrust between the two neighbors. I support you on that. But I also want Chowk to continue as a home away from home for Pakistanis. It would be sad if anyone takes it away from us in the name of freedom of speech, taken-for-granted openness, higher ideals or commercial considerations. Best wishes for your hard work and commitment. I know you and other Chowk team would continue to make us proud of you and your baby. Thank you for your kind words. ;) Take care.
Fhn #11: Dear Fhn, I respect your sentiments and would leave it that. I liked your tea and pinky comment. No it’s not that kind of club but there’s nothing wrong with friendly chit-chat if you can communicate the same things in a friendly manner now is there? Thanks for the comments.
Shandana #14: “sure i want to smack people (though they might not necessarily be indian)”
It says a lot about you doesn’t it? : ) no my dear sister the point is not smacking or excluding people. Whatever it is that the communication between the two neighbors can achieve with such hostile attitudes expressed by so many, it shouldn’t take away our privilige to come to Chowk expecting good articles on various subjects, a good deal on issues relating to Pakistan, and witty and intelligent interacts about them. And do you really want it to grow into “what appears to be a xenophobic skinhead :)”
Oh, and I’ve gotta make a slight complain to you here: why do you on occasions let your emotions make you read stuff in touchy articles that isn’t there? For example, “whats the point of a bunch of like minded people sitting around and stroking each other egos?” Did I imply anything like that in my article? Or do you like people to brutalize new and upcoming writers (even veterans when they are not at their best) so badly that they won’t dare send another piece to chowk? Just wondering…Thanks for your comments.
Krashid #17: “I think temporal has given a good suggestion. Skip the post you don`t like.”
I am taking your advice with all my heart. : ) However, sometimes it isn’t easy looking through dozens of posts only to find the same accusations and counter-accusations thrown at each other in the name of dialogue. Thanks for the comments.
Fairdinkum #18: “This piece is more divisive and heartbreaking than all the rude posts from our Indian/Pakistani friends put together.” I’m sorry if broke your heart. But I don’t think your assessment is accurate. There are people who’d disagree with you on that. Thanks for the comments.
Cheraym #19: Dear fellow Chowkwalla, you and a great number of good people like you restore my confidence in people across the border. Not that I have anything against them or anything. Just the kind of rude and insensitive comments that I’ve been accused of making are made be a FEW ill-intentioned people who don’t want the two countries to ever come closer and bridge the decades old gulf. By keep poking into the same old wounds, they are determined to not let the healing cure our ills. Yes, people on both sides are guilty of it and I’m sorry for anything that I have said that contributed to it. Let’s keep talking with each other and not at each other more often. And by talking about subjects other than India and Pakistan, and by avoiding the obligatory derogatory remarks about Islam and Hinduism, we can perhaps develop the kind of relationship that Iran’s Khatami wants to develop between Islam and the West. People of India and Pakistan have much more in comman that East and West ever will. Keep the spirit alive and we shall prevail. Thanks so much for you comments.
Brat #20: “there are numerous beautiful poems and articles, and it`s up to us to continue sharing these thoughts.” So true. Let’s make sure that it stays that way. Thanks.
Layman #21: “for those who want to cut-paste from other websites or give vent to Kashmir, India-Pak, Hindu-Muslim etc, there can be separate discussion boards where this can be allowed.” You are absolutely on the dot here dear friend. Let’s focus our thoughts on this track. Thanks.
Nameless #22: “The article displays all the characteristics of the Lucknowvi nawabzadas”. How did you know??? : )
Aakar patel #23: “i am in complete agreement with you: i do not think it is possible for indians and pakistanis to co-e-xist on the internet (our fault, mainly).” Dear akaar, no it’s not what I have demanded, implied or in anyway suggested. I mainly requested a qualified restraint of anti-Pakistan and anti-Islam comments when they are not even remotely relevant to the subject matter. Same goes with anti-India and anti-Hinduism comments by Pakistanis. Does this make it clear? Thanks for the comments.
Godot #29: “But I also believe that these hate-mongers are not true representatives of their group.” Couldn’t agree more. I think you’ve got it right dear Godot and I’ve a feeling that most people agree that its okay to admit when you’re wrong and not okay to continue to show distasteful behavior by being obnoxious all the time. Thanks for the comments.
Temporal #32: “Thanks to Allah, politics, media and madressahs and MOST IMPORTANATLY lack of any physical contacts with the Indians and the resulting xenophobia (munh pay ram ram: bagh’l maiN chuhri) they appear to be open or closet fanatics programmed to react in a certain and predictable way.”
Dear brother temporal, is the comment directed towards me in particular or us “Pakis” in general? And isn’t your attempt to please our friends from India has gone a bit far by including Allah among all that is wrong? You talk of xenophobia and yet “Thanx Abid” clearly conveys India’s own successful programming working as good if not better as Pakistan’s? Using RanaRansher’s style, I’d say why art thou not fair? Is it possible that by traveling to India you consider yourself more enlightened and whatever “physical contact” you may have had in India may not be a fair gauge to summarily declare an entire population of one particular strand or another? Waiting for answers…while staring at a coin.
Haraf #35: Agree with most of what you have to say. You might wanna re-read the article and then my post #30 to get a clear idea of what “I want.” Thanks anyway.
Ylh #43: Dear Yasser, you are a passionate young man and Pakistan needs more committed people like you. However, I must remind you too of the advantages of being restrained as much as you can. By letting others push your buttons, you seem to let others get to you. Don’t let anyone mess with your head. Be cool and read as much as you can about each of the people you admire, so you know what they stood for. Hang in there and keep up the good work.
Taimurmalik #45: Dear taimur, thanks for the comments. I would very much like to take your word for trusting all at Chowk. Let’s hope that you are right.
The happyone #44 and #46: Interesting analysis there happyone. Food for thought. You have a great sense of humor and I really enjoyed your comments. However, with all due respect, I disagree with your “resounding NO” and without going too much into detail would like you read the rest of my post and that of Bina #79 on this matter. Thanks.
Kant Patel #49: “I wondered whether I would have to disclose that at the outset everytime I interact on this forum! Wondered if the Indians, then what about the Ahmediyas and Shias!” Although I have cleared the air about my intentions and wants for the upteenth time, I couldn’t ignore the above comment. It would be wrong for you to lump together Indians (a nationality) Ahmadiyas (a breakaway religion) and Shias (a Muslim sect to which I belong too) in the same sentence. It may be politically convenient for you to identify with supposed minorities but the three have completely different histories and standings in the Pakistani society. Just thought you might wanna know. Otherwise, thanks for the comments.
Macgupta #52: With all the disagreements that you may have, your’s is a positive comment and I appreciate it. Thanks
Kazeem #53: Much of it is well put and I thank you for it.
BroadVision: #54: You are beautiful BV. If my article could achieve even half of that, I’d consider it a job well done. I hope and pray that you are right. Thanks a bunch.
SameerJB #55: I agree with a lot of what you say Sameer, except for sacrificing values for any cause, and sincerely hope that we can get away from the crap and get on with the good stuff. Thanks.
Rsaxena #57: “Is it just me or is there an imagined paranoia amongst many Pakistanis about Indians not accepting Pakistan?” No my dear Mr. Saxena, it is not about Pakistanis’ paranoia about India not accepting Pakistan. It’s the mourning at the loss of motherland that Indians have been so keen to express in no uncertain terms when they, without conceding, though secretly wishing, that they want Pakistan to again become part of India, resign to the only thing they CAN do, and which is lamenting at the Pakistanis that Pakistan was, is and will continue to be a mistake that Muslims made 50 years ago. And all the direct and indirect comments made to point out the supposed contradictions in Pakistan are an attempt in this direction which will achieve nothing but contempt for such futile efforts. Separate we are yes and will remain so. But you cannot win by verbally, physically or diplomatically wishing Pakistan to wither away like a bad dream and a profound mistake made at the expense of the Greater India. Sorry if I offended you but perhaps I’m doing my bit to continue the dialogue to end the misconceptions about what is possible and what is not about each other. Thanks for the post.
Shankar #60: For whatever it is worth, you are welcome. And I’d like to tender my apologies for any negative and offensive comments made by anyone against you or India or others from India. It is a shame if anyone has made such low remarks about others regardless of who they are. I am sorry and hope that people have learned much from this interaction would behave more seriously next time they encounter an unpleasant comment.
Ferozk #62: You are a brother. However, you may be wrong that “those who hate India or Pakistan will do so regardless of the reasons and there is no sense in trying to convince them otherwise” . I am not trying to convince people to stop whatever they think of each other. That’s up to them to decide. However, how and how often they express their feelings is a matter of public policy and THAT is a matter that should not be taken lightly. Good thing you didn’t trust your instincts. I need all the people on board to make my argument. Thanks for the comments. What do you think about Oppenhiemer’s book and its repercussions on Hillary’s campaign?
Veeresh #63: “approach the WWF and get them to stage Indo-Pak wrestling bouts at Wagah-Attari” Now that would be a sight for the world to see. Jhara vs. Ajit singh. Or whoever is now ruling the akhara on either side of the border. Not a bad idea at all.
Iqbak_kasim #64: I respect your sentiment and would like to thank you for your input. While agreeing with some of the things, I can’t agree with many of the things you have suggested for reasons I have explained. Thanks for the comments though. Pakistan and India can be characterized better as Siamese twins separated at birth by a sword instead of a surgery. How’s that? Yes, I agree things need to be sorted out, if the intention is pure it can be done.
Ussa #66: Well put and yes its only a few individuals who spoil it for all. Thanks for the comments.
Ras Siddiqui #68: I have great respect for you and would like to thank you for your comments. But nobody is being defensive about anything. It’s a matter of sorting out a matter that has bothered a lot of people and there’s nothing wrong with that. I’ll leave it at that.
Musafir #71: Dear musafir, thank you for your beautiful comments, very philosophical and poignant. And the poem too. Thanks so much.
Cbb #73: Dear cbb, thanks for the comments. This post and the #30 one should answer some of your concerns.
RanaRansher #75: Rana ji long time no see? I asked temporal a short while ago about your whereabouts, really. Are you planning on going to Toronto in September or would you rather watch it on TV? As for the article, I think I’ve tried my best to answer yours and others similar comments and questions to the best of my ability. If there’s anything else, I’d be more than happy to talk about it. Thanks for the reply.
Howard Stern #77: I strongly suspect that you are the same respondent who defended HS as chotu in #40. Nice try, though.
Anamika #78: And your point being? BTW I’m neither but thanks for your comments.
Bina #79: “Personally I like the fact that Chowk started out as a place where Pakistanis could express their views. I`d like to see it continue with that flavor, but the interaction of South Asians from all over the world is what makes it a very healthy place. I wouldn`t like to see Chowk lose its Pakistani spirit; there aren`t many places like this one out there on the Web. Perhaps Chowk should be seen as a country that welcomes visitors from everywhere but still keeps its Pakistani identity intact. A strong enough Web site, like a strong enough country, should be able to coexist with neighbors, absorb others, and do all of the above with dignity!”
You are a sweetheart Bina. I couldn’t resist copying your entire post here. I couldn’t have said it better myself. Thanks so much for summarizing the whole POV in such a concise statement. BTW have you thought about starting your own zine after leaving spider?
Mumbaiite #81: Thank you my friend I couldn’t agree more.
Essensaur #82: Well quoted and yes that should be the spirit. Thank you.
Sadna #83:
``Umr bhar apne garebaa`n se ulajhne waale
Tu mujhe mere hi saaye se daraata kya hai``
How about this:
Har Aik baat Kehtay Ho Tum Kay Tu Kia Hay
Tumhee Kaho Kay Ye Andaze Guftugu Kia Hay
Ravivarma #85: No it doesn’t hurt to listen to other’s opinion expressed in a decent and fair manner. Please do accept my apologies if I or others on Chowk have hurt your feelings. Thanks for the comments.
Jawahara #94: Dear Jawahara, I believe I have answered most of the concerns you raised in your comments elsewhere. Please do continue to write and read on Chowk as you have been doing so well in the past. Thanks for your comments.
I would like to thank everyone again for taking the time to register your thoughts and opinions and sincerely hope that all of you will continue to make Chowk a place that it should be.
Take care,
Rehan Rizvi.
#98 Posted by mohajir on July 20, 2000 5:37:12 pm
The threat that hangs over S. Asia - II
By Prem Shankar Jha
THE DEMONISATION of India gained enormous momentum with the conflict in Kashmir. Every Pakistani believes without a moment`s doubt the statistics of terror and oppression the government regularly publishes. As of a few days ago these were: killed 71,204; wounded 29,561; school children burnt alive 553; others burnt alive 674; raped (between ages 7 and 70) 7,613; sexually incapacitated through torture 6,726; sexually assaulted Muslim women 16,607 and so on. Few stop to ask themselves why, if India has unleashed terror on such an unprecedented scale, no more than 20,000 refugees have fled ``Indian-held Kashmir`` into ``Azad Kashmir`` in the past 10 years. In fact, the number in their refugee camps is only 15,852. Against this there were more than 60,000 Muslim Kashmiris in Jammu camps in 1994, they having fled the terror of militants in the Valley.
But disinformation has done its job. After 10 years of relentless exposure to such statistics, supplemented by daily footage from Kashmir broadcast by Pakistan TV, India has become the personification of evil - zullum - and the mere thought of what its soldiers are doing in Kashmir to fellow Muslims is sufficient to send many a young and impressionable Pakistani into a killing rage. No government in that country can now suddenly turn off the Kashmir tap because the knob is no longer in its hands.
Dress, language, education, religion and an enemy to hate - all ingredients of national identity are not just present but are blended into a mutually-reinforcing whole. That is what makes Pakistan`s predicament truly difficult . For the identity that has emerged from the fusion is one which relentlessly and unalterably rejects westernisation and modernisation. As a result, the distance between what Pakistan is becoming and what it will need to be if it is to survive, let alone prosper, in the globalised, westernised world of the 21st century is growing steadily. A comparison with India will help to explain this.
In 1947 both countries enjoyed an equal variety and richness of dress. In both, time imposed a drab uniformity, especially in urban areas. But the resemblance ends there. In India people changed from their traditional to western clothes. It was the shirt and trousers which became the badge of modern working India. However depressing aesthetically, it reflects an intrinsic openness to western ideas in Indian society. To the average Indian western dress is ``modern.`` Wearing it lends one status in the village or the mohalla. In Pakistan, by contrast, the shirt and trousers are in retreat before the shalwar-kameez. Habitual wearers of western clothes can easily be identified. They belong in corporate offices, five star hotels and newspaper offices. They are likely to be managers, bureaucrats, doctors and lawyers and are seen far more in cosmopolitan Karachi than in traditional Lahore or Islamabad. But these are islands in the sea of shalwar-kameez. Pakistan is thus going in a direction different from every other Asian country to the east of it.
Exactly the same contrast is to be found in language. In India too the ethnic languages are in gradual retreat. But the space left vacant is being occupied by English and not by Hindi. Even shopkeepers on holiday in Shimla or Kashmir talk to their children in loud voices in English to proclaim that they have ``arrived.`` Road signs in English are the norm, at least on all national highways, and the moment an Indian shopkeeper or workshop owner begins to cater for people slightly better off than the local clientele, he not only puts up a signboard in English but chooses a cosmopolitan sounding ``English`` name for his enterprise, often made up of nothing more than the initials of the promoter or owner.
In India too the state schooling system has proved a hopeless failure. But in the past two decades, thousands of private schools have opened to fill the gap. These advertise themselves as ``higher English`` and ``public`` schools even when all they consist of are a couple of rooms and a lone teacher. The curriculum is strictly modern and they all aspire to recognition by the State boards of secondary education. All of them teach English. In fact this is their main selling point as they try to wean students away from the defunct government schools. It is out of such humble institutions that the country is generating tens of thousands of young software programmers who have become the envy of other developing countries.
One does not need to dwell long on the role of religion in the formation of an Indian national identity. India had its Hindutva wave but, in contrast to Pakistan, religion simply does not define an Indian. Even the Vishwa Hindu Parishad has applied for NGO status at the United Nations, claiming that it is completely non-sectarian. Lastly, despite Pakistan`s incessant intervention to stoke secession first in Punjab and then in Kashmir, Indians have not demonised Pakistan. The difference was starkly visible when the Prime Minister, Mr. A. B. Vajpayee, took a bus to Lahore. Indians greeted his initiative with euphoria; Pakistanis with wariness tinged with displeasure. If Indians demonise anything in Pakistan it is the dreaded Inter-Services Intelligence. But demonising an institution is very different from demonising an entire country.
The contrast between India and Pakistan is thus precisely the contrast that develops between siblings in a family. Born to the same roots, and in this case at the same time, siblings tend to develop non-competing identities. This happens spontaneously and unconsciously but its purpose is entirely rational: to prevent the disruption of the family. While India has embraced the West and has done its best to translate its ideals of pluralism, secularism and democracy into practice, Pakistan has embraced an identity which is taking it further and further away from all of these.
The emergence of this ``rejectionist`` identity is the greatest single source of anxiety to modern Pakistanis. For it is not only making the adaptation of the country to the future more and more difficult but making it progressively more vulnerable to sudden Talibanisation. The danger arises from the hollowness that lies at the core of any identity based on rejection alone. One more ingredient is needed to make it complete, and that is a positive ideology. Once the Hegelian vision of progress through science and reason has been rejected, the only candidate anywhere in sight is Islamic fundamentalism.
The modern Pakistani establishment is desperate to avert this. To do this it needs to find that one element in the process of identity formation described above that it can reverse, in order to make the process benign. And every thinker in that country knows that is to end the Kashmir dispute. If only that is somehow done, the fuel rods which are feeding the rejectionist identity will get withdrawn. Sibling differentiation will slow down and go back to fulfilling its original purpose of minimising competition between the two countries. This is what every Pakistani leader from Ms. Benazir Bhutto to Gen. Pervez Musharraf has been trying to say over the past six years. It explains why in his blunt way Gen. Musharraf keeps insisting that there is no dispute other than Kashmir.
But for Pakistan the option of simply disengaging from Kashmir no longer exists. Any attempt to do so precipitately will turn the process of identity formation described above against the modern state overnight, and bring on Talibanisation in a rush.
During his meeting with Indian journalists in Islamabad, Gen. Musharraf pointed, however, to another way forward. Three times he repeated, ``Any solution that is acceptable to the people of Kashmir will be acceptable to us.`` He qualified this with the remark that Pakistan would still need to be part of the final solution. But he has indicated clearly where he thinks he can breach the wall of rejectionism that Pakistan is immuring itself within. He has thus asked the people of Kashmir and the people and government of India for help. For the sake of avoiding Armageddon in the subcontinent, I hope that both will respond.
By Prem Shankar Jha
THE DEMONISATION of India gained enormous momentum with the conflict in Kashmir. Every Pakistani believes without a moment`s doubt the statistics of terror and oppression the government regularly publishes. As of a few days ago these were: killed 71,204; wounded 29,561; school children burnt alive 553; others burnt alive 674; raped (between ages 7 and 70) 7,613; sexually incapacitated through torture 6,726; sexually assaulted Muslim women 16,607 and so on. Few stop to ask themselves why, if India has unleashed terror on such an unprecedented scale, no more than 20,000 refugees have fled ``Indian-held Kashmir`` into ``Azad Kashmir`` in the past 10 years. In fact, the number in their refugee camps is only 15,852. Against this there were more than 60,000 Muslim Kashmiris in Jammu camps in 1994, they having fled the terror of militants in the Valley.
But disinformation has done its job. After 10 years of relentless exposure to such statistics, supplemented by daily footage from Kashmir broadcast by Pakistan TV, India has become the personification of evil - zullum - and the mere thought of what its soldiers are doing in Kashmir to fellow Muslims is sufficient to send many a young and impressionable Pakistani into a killing rage. No government in that country can now suddenly turn off the Kashmir tap because the knob is no longer in its hands.
Dress, language, education, religion and an enemy to hate - all ingredients of national identity are not just present but are blended into a mutually-reinforcing whole. That is what makes Pakistan`s predicament truly difficult . For the identity that has emerged from the fusion is one which relentlessly and unalterably rejects westernisation and modernisation. As a result, the distance between what Pakistan is becoming and what it will need to be if it is to survive, let alone prosper, in the globalised, westernised world of the 21st century is growing steadily. A comparison with India will help to explain this.
In 1947 both countries enjoyed an equal variety and richness of dress. In both, time imposed a drab uniformity, especially in urban areas. But the resemblance ends there. In India people changed from their traditional to western clothes. It was the shirt and trousers which became the badge of modern working India. However depressing aesthetically, it reflects an intrinsic openness to western ideas in Indian society. To the average Indian western dress is ``modern.`` Wearing it lends one status in the village or the mohalla. In Pakistan, by contrast, the shirt and trousers are in retreat before the shalwar-kameez. Habitual wearers of western clothes can easily be identified. They belong in corporate offices, five star hotels and newspaper offices. They are likely to be managers, bureaucrats, doctors and lawyers and are seen far more in cosmopolitan Karachi than in traditional Lahore or Islamabad. But these are islands in the sea of shalwar-kameez. Pakistan is thus going in a direction different from every other Asian country to the east of it.
Exactly the same contrast is to be found in language. In India too the ethnic languages are in gradual retreat. But the space left vacant is being occupied by English and not by Hindi. Even shopkeepers on holiday in Shimla or Kashmir talk to their children in loud voices in English to proclaim that they have ``arrived.`` Road signs in English are the norm, at least on all national highways, and the moment an Indian shopkeeper or workshop owner begins to cater for people slightly better off than the local clientele, he not only puts up a signboard in English but chooses a cosmopolitan sounding ``English`` name for his enterprise, often made up of nothing more than the initials of the promoter or owner.
In India too the state schooling system has proved a hopeless failure. But in the past two decades, thousands of private schools have opened to fill the gap. These advertise themselves as ``higher English`` and ``public`` schools even when all they consist of are a couple of rooms and a lone teacher. The curriculum is strictly modern and they all aspire to recognition by the State boards of secondary education. All of them teach English. In fact this is their main selling point as they try to wean students away from the defunct government schools. It is out of such humble institutions that the country is generating tens of thousands of young software programmers who have become the envy of other developing countries.
One does not need to dwell long on the role of religion in the formation of an Indian national identity. India had its Hindutva wave but, in contrast to Pakistan, religion simply does not define an Indian. Even the Vishwa Hindu Parishad has applied for NGO status at the United Nations, claiming that it is completely non-sectarian. Lastly, despite Pakistan`s incessant intervention to stoke secession first in Punjab and then in Kashmir, Indians have not demonised Pakistan. The difference was starkly visible when the Prime Minister, Mr. A. B. Vajpayee, took a bus to Lahore. Indians greeted his initiative with euphoria; Pakistanis with wariness tinged with displeasure. If Indians demonise anything in Pakistan it is the dreaded Inter-Services Intelligence. But demonising an institution is very different from demonising an entire country.
The contrast between India and Pakistan is thus precisely the contrast that develops between siblings in a family. Born to the same roots, and in this case at the same time, siblings tend to develop non-competing identities. This happens spontaneously and unconsciously but its purpose is entirely rational: to prevent the disruption of the family. While India has embraced the West and has done its best to translate its ideals of pluralism, secularism and democracy into practice, Pakistan has embraced an identity which is taking it further and further away from all of these.
The emergence of this ``rejectionist`` identity is the greatest single source of anxiety to modern Pakistanis. For it is not only making the adaptation of the country to the future more and more difficult but making it progressively more vulnerable to sudden Talibanisation. The danger arises from the hollowness that lies at the core of any identity based on rejection alone. One more ingredient is needed to make it complete, and that is a positive ideology. Once the Hegelian vision of progress through science and reason has been rejected, the only candidate anywhere in sight is Islamic fundamentalism.
The modern Pakistani establishment is desperate to avert this. To do this it needs to find that one element in the process of identity formation described above that it can reverse, in order to make the process benign. And every thinker in that country knows that is to end the Kashmir dispute. If only that is somehow done, the fuel rods which are feeding the rejectionist identity will get withdrawn. Sibling differentiation will slow down and go back to fulfilling its original purpose of minimising competition between the two countries. This is what every Pakistani leader from Ms. Benazir Bhutto to Gen. Pervez Musharraf has been trying to say over the past six years. It explains why in his blunt way Gen. Musharraf keeps insisting that there is no dispute other than Kashmir.
But for Pakistan the option of simply disengaging from Kashmir no longer exists. Any attempt to do so precipitately will turn the process of identity formation described above against the modern state overnight, and bring on Talibanisation in a rush.
During his meeting with Indian journalists in Islamabad, Gen. Musharraf pointed, however, to another way forward. Three times he repeated, ``Any solution that is acceptable to the people of Kashmir will be acceptable to us.`` He qualified this with the remark that Pakistan would still need to be part of the final solution. But he has indicated clearly where he thinks he can breach the wall of rejectionism that Pakistan is immuring itself within. He has thus asked the people of Kashmir and the people and government of India for help. For the sake of avoiding Armageddon in the subcontinent, I hope that both will respond.
#97 Posted by jawahara on July 20, 2000 11:20:09 am
Thank you krashid. I do appreciate that, and yes, we should strive to get our thoughts out there in a civil manner.
Scout #67
You talked about more Indians writing for chowk. I think more Indians are writing for chowk than before. Of the featured writers on the front page, 3 are Indian, 50% of the total.
Scout #67
You talked about more Indians writing for chowk. I think more Indians are writing for chowk than before. Of the featured writers on the front page, 3 are Indian, 50% of the total.
#96 Posted by krashid on July 20, 2000 12:44:17 am
Jawahara!
You are most welcome to write on this board.
I think with time people will realize respecting each others opinion.
And learn to argue in a better manner.
You are most welcome to write on this board.
I think with time people will realize respecting each others opinion.
And learn to argue in a better manner.
#95 Posted by jawahara on July 19, 2000 9:50:27 pm
Rehan, I read this article a couple of times, unsure why it disturbed me at some deep level. I am still not sure.
The reason I came to Chowk about two years ago, was because it called itself a site where *all * were welcome, ``to read, write and think.`` At first I was a little hesitant, because it did seem to be a Pakistani only site, but nowhere did it expressly state that it was. I considered its quality of writing and open atmosphere its strong points.
Another strength is, as many people said, is implicit in its name. A disparate crowd of voices that together can make something work, perhaps, in this case, friendship, maybe some kind of understanding between our two people.
I was disappointed that you implied in your well written article that Indians are welcome to read, but should pretty much shut up and lurk in the background. As far as mud slinging is concerned, both your compatriots and mine have indulged in it.
Personally, I see this new incarnation of chowk as a more vibrant, alive community, not just made up of a few ``highly educated and well-read group of people,`` of whom you reminisce. I remember a few months ago, when the site had really cooled and I feared it would fade away as many others had before it.
But it continues today, rejuvenated, strong, providing a voice for many, espousing many views, a credit to the editors. I believe it to be a better site because of it, always challenged and fresh.
I hesitate while writing this, because perhaps it is not as credible as it would be coming from a Pakistani. And that is a first time for me, here, on Chowk.
Jawahara
The reason I came to Chowk about two years ago, was because it called itself a site where *all * were welcome, ``to read, write and think.`` At first I was a little hesitant, because it did seem to be a Pakistani only site, but nowhere did it expressly state that it was. I considered its quality of writing and open atmosphere its strong points.
Another strength is, as many people said, is implicit in its name. A disparate crowd of voices that together can make something work, perhaps, in this case, friendship, maybe some kind of understanding between our two people.
I was disappointed that you implied in your well written article that Indians are welcome to read, but should pretty much shut up and lurk in the background. As far as mud slinging is concerned, both your compatriots and mine have indulged in it.
Personally, I see this new incarnation of chowk as a more vibrant, alive community, not just made up of a few ``highly educated and well-read group of people,`` of whom you reminisce. I remember a few months ago, when the site had really cooled and I feared it would fade away as many others had before it.
But it continues today, rejuvenated, strong, providing a voice for many, espousing many views, a credit to the editors. I believe it to be a better site because of it, always challenged and fresh.
I hesitate while writing this, because perhaps it is not as credible as it would be coming from a Pakistani. And that is a first time for me, here, on Chowk.
Jawahara
#94 Posted by krashid on July 19, 2000 1:24:49 am
Smellycat #90.
I won`t comment on smelly. You can call yourself phremone cat.
So that is your position.
So why are you blaming Kashmiris to fight for their rights of self determination.
They want their rights as Kashmiris. Not as Indian.
I won`t comment on smelly. You can call yourself phremone cat.
So that is your position.
So why are you blaming Kashmiris to fight for their rights of self determination.
They want their rights as Kashmiris. Not as Indian.
#93 Posted by Godot on July 18, 2000 10:41:43 pm
Re: HowardStern, #87
Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude! Cool.
Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude! Cool.
#92 Posted by smellycat on July 18, 2000 5:20:45 pm
krashid says
``Give me reason, why Kashmiris are not given rights. Given the circumstances that Kashmir is an international dispute. Given that India annexed Junagadh and Hyderabad on the pretext that its majority population is Hindu. ``
Kashmiris have all the rights that other indians have and some more. Kashmir is an international dispute between India and Pakistan, because pakistan invaded and occupied a part of Kashmir. The only thing in dispute is the vacation of Pakistani forces from the occupied Kashmir.
The difference between Pakistan and India is Pakistan is created for ``Muslims only``.
So hindus are second class citizens by law. So if Junagadh and Hyderabad are hindu majority areas don`t you think it makes sense to them to be part of India?
``Give me reason, why Kashmiris are not given rights. Given the circumstances that Kashmir is an international dispute. Given that India annexed Junagadh and Hyderabad on the pretext that its majority population is Hindu. ``
Kashmiris have all the rights that other indians have and some more. Kashmir is an international dispute between India and Pakistan, because pakistan invaded and occupied a part of Kashmir. The only thing in dispute is the vacation of Pakistani forces from the occupied Kashmir.
The difference between Pakistan and India is Pakistan is created for ``Muslims only``.
So hindus are second class citizens by law. So if Junagadh and Hyderabad are hindu majority areas don`t you think it makes sense to them to be part of India?
#91 Posted by ylh on July 18, 2000 4:45:58 pm
Ignore Howard stern ... every now and then ignorance in the mould of an American creeps up ..
he is probably just another Indian ....who wants to be American ... hence a confused ABCD ...
Maybe he doesnt know that Most Muslims consider Farrakhan non Muslim and that he is not the leader of the Muslims ... and that the call he made for a seperate Black America (Not Muslim America) was 30 years old ....
Ignorance Ignorance ... I am sick of it ..
I am sick of people like
Udaykumar, Asif Naqshbandi, Howard Stern, Somani
and at times when Rsaxena makes totally baseless statements about Pakistan due to lack of knowledge I get sick of him too ........
he is probably just another Indian ....who wants to be American ... hence a confused ABCD ...
Maybe he doesnt know that Most Muslims consider Farrakhan non Muslim and that he is not the leader of the Muslims ... and that the call he made for a seperate Black America (Not Muslim America) was 30 years old ....
Ignorance Ignorance ... I am sick of it ..
I am sick of people like
Udaykumar, Asif Naqshbandi, Howard Stern, Somani
and at times when Rsaxena makes totally baseless statements about Pakistan due to lack of knowledge I get sick of him too ........
#90 Posted by sadna on July 18, 2000 12:10:08 pm
sac #84
Thanks for the raise. Don`t go crashing the markets on me, now.
About Ghulam Ali and other ghazal singers, I think they caught on in a big way in India in the `80s when Hindi film music hit the pits. I myself have been taking an off-and-on interest in Ghulam Ali only in the last few years.
I have attended two of his concerts in the recent past, one was enjoyable, the other so-so, mainly because of an admiring but unruly audience. He had to scold them a few times, but he did it so politely ! I would guess thats why people pay to hear him talk, too :-).
Sadhana
Thanks for the raise. Don`t go crashing the markets on me, now.
About Ghulam Ali and other ghazal singers, I think they caught on in a big way in India in the `80s when Hindi film music hit the pits. I myself have been taking an off-and-on interest in Ghulam Ali only in the last few years.
I have attended two of his concerts in the recent past, one was enjoyable, the other so-so, mainly because of an admiring but unruly audience. He had to scold them a few times, but he did it so politely ! I would guess thats why people pay to hear him talk, too :-).
Sadhana
#89 Posted by HowardStern on July 18, 2000 11:11:54 am
Godot chill out man. You don`t have to say dude so many times to sound American. I said we celebrate differences and ridicule differences all the same. Just be your self.
I guess you are right, though. This chowk place is not very free.
So what about the separate Moslem American nation ? How is progress on that front ?
Imagine that, a country of cab driving terrorists. Will it be multi racial and multi ethnic ?
I guess you are right, though. This chowk place is not very free.
So what about the separate Moslem American nation ? How is progress on that front ?
Imagine that, a country of cab driving terrorists. Will it be multi racial and multi ethnic ?
#88 Posted by Godot on July 17, 2000 11:24:40 pm
Re: HowardStern, #77
Yo, Howard! Dude!
Dude, I never thought I`d talk to you, and at Chowk of all places, dude! What`s the matter, dude? You`re not part of that gang call ``Dot Busters,`` anymore, dude? You know, dude, that at Chowk those women roam freely who wear that thing on their forehead which, as you once asked, dude, when you scratch you win something? I`d tread carefully here, dude, or they may scratch you, dude.
Dude, Chowk is not a place where you can urinate as freely as you do on your radio show, dude, hiding behind that ``free speech`` crap, dude. For instance, dude, at Chowk, you cannot talk about your mother`s private parts as freely as you once did in your radio program, dude.
You see, dude, at Chowk, you need to be very subtle, dude. Since I`m quite sure you haven`t got a clue as to what that means, dude, allow me to explain, dude. Talking about your mother`s private parts, dude, while urinating with that small you-know-what with subtlety will make you a James Joyce or a Vladimir Nabokov. Without subtlety, dude, you are a Bob Goccuni or a Larry Flint, dude. At Chowk, dude, they don`t allow Larry Flints, but Nabokovs, dude, are welcome with open arms, dude. You know, dude, it`s like the New Yorker and the Wall Street Journal sort o`thing, dude (which, dude, you may not understand).
Each time after listening to your ``open`` and ``free`` show, dude, I gotta use a lota, dude, cuz paper doesn`t do justice, dude! And, dude, at Chowk, they keep their lotas and Charmins in bathrooms, dude, and use them with the doors shut, dude. Can you believe that, dude! Dude, at Chowk, you cannot clean yourself while everyone is eating and you are visible, dude. Chowk is a dictatorship, a hell, for ``free thinkers`` and ``doers`` like you, dude. Nabokov vs Larry Flint? Free Speech vs Censorship? Go figure! Dude!
Dude, what identity crisis?
Dude, don`t hang-up. Dude? Dude! Dude?...can you hear me...dude, dude...
Yo, Howard! Dude!
Dude, I never thought I`d talk to you, and at Chowk of all places, dude! What`s the matter, dude? You`re not part of that gang call ``Dot Busters,`` anymore, dude? You know, dude, that at Chowk those women roam freely who wear that thing on their forehead which, as you once asked, dude, when you scratch you win something? I`d tread carefully here, dude, or they may scratch you, dude.
Dude, Chowk is not a place where you can urinate as freely as you do on your radio show, dude, hiding behind that ``free speech`` crap, dude. For instance, dude, at Chowk, you cannot talk about your mother`s private parts as freely as you once did in your radio program, dude.
You see, dude, at Chowk, you need to be very subtle, dude. Since I`m quite sure you haven`t got a clue as to what that means, dude, allow me to explain, dude. Talking about your mother`s private parts, dude, while urinating with that small you-know-what with subtlety will make you a James Joyce or a Vladimir Nabokov. Without subtlety, dude, you are a Bob Goccuni or a Larry Flint, dude. At Chowk, dude, they don`t allow Larry Flints, but Nabokovs, dude, are welcome with open arms, dude. You know, dude, it`s like the New Yorker and the Wall Street Journal sort o`thing, dude (which, dude, you may not understand).
Each time after listening to your ``open`` and ``free`` show, dude, I gotta use a lota, dude, cuz paper doesn`t do justice, dude! And, dude, at Chowk, they keep their lotas and Charmins in bathrooms, dude, and use them with the doors shut, dude. Can you believe that, dude! Dude, at Chowk, you cannot clean yourself while everyone is eating and you are visible, dude. Chowk is a dictatorship, a hell, for ``free thinkers`` and ``doers`` like you, dude. Nabokov vs Larry Flint? Free Speech vs Censorship? Go figure! Dude!
Dude, what identity crisis?
Dude, don`t hang-up. Dude? Dude! Dude?...can you hear me...dude, dude...
#87 Posted by ravivarma on July 17, 2000 6:35:21 pm
hi..
this article started in a decent way but in the
end tilted down to its origin..... and the same
articulature of words ....bringing past and
present.
Its not only the case of a few indians being
anti pakistan.. i have seen hundreds vice versa
too. so there`s no point going back to the reason
why jinnah asked for the split or what not.
This doesn`t for sure augure well.
The writer just articulated. Im sorry if it hurts,
but thats what i personally felt after reading
thru.
Take it in the right spirit or not is as ur discretion now.
this article started in a decent way but in the
end tilted down to its origin..... and the same
articulature of words ....bringing past and
present.
Its not only the case of a few indians being
anti pakistan.. i have seen hundreds vice versa
too. so there`s no point going back to the reason
why jinnah asked for the split or what not.
This doesn`t for sure augure well.
The writer just articulated. Im sorry if it hurts,
but thats what i personally felt after reading
thru.
Take it in the right spirit or not is as ur discretion now.
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