A Pakistani School’s Visit to India

Alia, only at 16 and making waves already!

I wonder how much more you`ve done by now.

Nice article by the way...

Hobbyty #1047

I have a question, why did you post the article if you can`t or don`t want to support the authors insertions. Then again in a debate or discussion, proper atticate is to raise points that a person and support and back up. If some point that can`t be supported/proved to general satisfaction, even if it is true, it is not raised by a responsible debtor.

i read the article on a Paki news site, dawn or News, not sure now, before you posted it, and thought it was a joke. And it’s quality insults journalism. And you post it. One is to assume that it this is the type of sources you base you opinions on.

This only speaks a lot for the intellectual quality opinions/dogma.

You say, ``You have gumption - then take it to Margolis, take it Durban - just spare me the rubbish about what a moral lot you are - In case you failed to notice it - Margolis says that this same practice has seeped into Pakistan.``

And there you go again blaming Paki problems on India. Caste discrimination is a problem but not in the manner stated by the author. Yes I have the ODASITY to question you, and not take it to Margolis or Durban, because you are the one who posted that piece of waste on an interactive site with the intent to prove a point, not Margolis. I read that article before you posted it on a non-interactive site and ignored it. When you post it on Chowk, responses are expected, and since you posted it, you are the one who will receive them. LEARN HOW TO BE RESPONSIBLE for your actions. And no, you can`t have your cake and eat it too, post something and then say you are not responsible for the content.

You say, ``Just fix the problem instead of justifying it or trying to excuse it away - we have outlawed it and now we will out law poverty. If it`s a bunch of half truths or plain lies - just ignore it.``

I only question the objectivity of the author and

and your sources of information and also the value of your opinions considering what they are based on.

Cheers Mate

URSTRULY: 1084

There is NO blasphemy law in Islam. Why are you guys still debating this nonsense?

When did muhammed ever kill a blasphemer?

When did Allah ask you to kill someone who disagree with you?

Have you read the quran...in your own language? Did you read the part where it says `you to your religion and me to mine?` Are you aware that even people who commit shirk arent killed?

HOW THE HELL CAN A SENTIENT BEING ADVOCATE DEATH TO SOMEONE WHO SAYS MUHAMMED BECAME A MUSLIM AT AGE 40.

There used to ba a time when people would be proud to call themselves muslim. When we building massive libraries all over the empire, when we were making monumental discoveries in the sciences, when we stood for Peace (islam).

Not anymore. These days we cant go an inch without having some IDIOTIC discussion on Islam by people who dont even deserve to claim that religion.

STOP THE BULLSH!T...

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YLH : 953.

Your post greatly resembles what passes for Islamic scholarship these days...

-This is how intelligent people zero in... They try to understand the various sides in an argument. Then they side with the argument which presents the best case.

-This is how muslims zero in... They try to understand the various sides in an argument. Then they side with the argument which makes islam look the best.

-You find it horrible that aisha was 6 when she married muhammed (lets ignore the fact that we`re judging the practices of another time/place through our standards...). Thus you feel compelled to rid islam of this bad image. You consequently go on a fact finding mission aimed at presenting only the facts which best suit your thesis...

``1) Ayesha`s maturity, her answers to the Prophet, her role as the advisor to Muslim rulers after the Prophet`s death all point to a woman much older in age and acumen than a mere teenager.``

Aisha married muhammed at six and they consumated (ie. got freaky) their marriage when she was nine. He died nine years later making her mature enough to advise muslim rulers (you forgot to mention the murder of the ahle bait)...

``2) Lack of truly credible evidence, since Arabs hardly kept track of their age especially those of women.``

Then why would you mention her maturity, puberty date etc? Youre contradicting yourself...

`Pak wants jehadi belt around India`

PTI

Moscow, August 31

http://www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/310801/dtlfor25.asp

Pakistan plans to encircle India with a jehadi belt and destabilise peace in Central Asia, a top field comander of Afghanistan`s Northern Alliance has claimed.

``Pakistan`s strategic goal is to create a belt of Islamic jehad around India, `` and disturb peace in Central Asia with assistance from the Taliban, commander of anti-Taliban forces in Panjshir sector, Bismillah Khan, told a Russian daily.

Also, despite US sanctions, Taliban continues to receive arms from Pakistan, Vremya Novostyei quoted him as saying.

Another senior leader of the Northern Alliance, former Interior Minister in the Rabbani Government, Yunis Kanuni said the key to peace in Afghanistan is in the hands of Islamabad as the Taliban militia is a ``Pakistani puppet`` .

Meanwhile, Russia has warned against establishment of an international terrorist centre on the Taliban-controlled Afghan territory amid media reports about the appointment of Saudi billionaire Osama bin Laden as the chief of the Taliban forces and Juma Namangani as his deputy.

``Under the cover of protecting pseudo-religious values, the Taliban are preparing a base to expand militant extremism and separatism beyond the borders of the region,`` the Russian foreign ministry said in a statement.

Disclaimer:

The Following is an accademic exchange and has nothing to do with how I personally view the relationship of church and state:

Urstruly,

I once wrote a paper on what I thought would be a Modern Islamic state for a well known UPenn Professor of Islamic civ/History of Phil and science (Professor Nauman ul Haq).....0 and the many conclusions I came to were :

1) A truly Islamic state would be an Islamic state whether it is a republic, monarchy, democracy or a theocracy, since Islam seems to work from inside all systems, and doesnot have an exclusive system unto its own. Hence for a state to be Islamic it doesnot require prescriptions in the constitution but for the constitutional/defacto sovereigns to be moral and just. So a constitutionally secular Democratic state can be aligned with the Islamic principles if the people/legislators act within the ethical circle of Islam much like the influence of christian/protestant/puritan values on the US`s polity. Islam undoubtedly commands a greater loyalty from the people and hence will be more socially binding then Christianity.

2)I believe that Islamic Law and its degeneration has occured most often because of the Misuse of Illa... I can give you specific examples.. but I leave them for later.

I am interested in finding out your views on the above mentioned assertions.

-YLH

Hobby: Can I politely request that u no longer mention the DALITS? Had your concern been humanitarian, I would remain silent. It seems apparent that your using it as an ace in this Paki vs India fiasco.

I aint in this `them vs us` thing but IF you are, be honest with yourself. As Gandhi said ``if u wanna change the world BE that change.`` The side you identify with has far too many problems to keep you worried about the other side.

Case and point, Islam is the only faith which will as a woman to cover her entire body BEFORE ASKING A MAN TOO LOOK AWAY!! The thought occured to me that muslim men are so damn backward because their religion considers them sexual animals....

Lastly, IMO you`re walking a tight rope. You speak like a great religious reformer, and though i wish u actually bring your theories into existence, I doubt youll be successful.

Allowing plurality to exist allows these jehadi idiots to flourish. Since they dont want plurality, youve got quite the paradox on your hands. My advice is that you keep your revolution secular.

Hobbyty:

Chowk seems to have swallowed up my response to your last post addressed to me. Am too tired to retype, or even recall everything I had written, but in summary, thanks for posting the expcerpts. They were a joy and more to read and ponder on.

Graham Greene? Yes... but ahh. don`t get me started there.

Btw, have you read Allan Bloom`s ``The CLosing of The American Mind`? Bloom brilliantly expounds on teh intersection of love, knowledge, and truth, and values. A must read for anyone remotely intersted in the question of fatih and values in the modern world.

best rgds,

PM

Saminashah, nasah, Soysauce, Dost Mittar, anybody elese I have missed:

First things first, You guys are engaged in the ``Straw man`` argument, where to have choosen to argue and attribute to me a position I have not taken. My post to Samina is clear that the only position I am taking is that it seems to me to be a political symbol - Whether you like or approve or disapprove is up to you - but if you wish to express approval or disapproval, please do it honestly - without twisting the position I am taking. If anywhere in my post about burqa as political protest, you can find the notion that I support either the acid throwing or the burqa - please point it out to all of Chowk. I will accept, I wonder if you will be up to the challenge - All Chowk is witness. Put up or shut up!

Samina,

Are political symbols abused? yeah, sure. Are political symbols then just utilites? Yeah, sure.

Does a political symbol, therefore represent the entire struggle for freedom? Not necessarily, but it can. We disapprove of the symbols that may now reflect the powerlessness of the central government in Captive Kashmir, therefore, we disapprove of the entire struggle - Obviously not, the freedom movement is a plurality and the players and ideologies diverse.

Iranian Women`s movement - With your permission I will present some information on coming Tuesday - weekend plans

Iranian movies - I`m a fan and have not yet seen Gabbeh - did read a article abot the arrest of the director of ``Dou Zaan`` - Have you seen ``The Color of Heaven`` ?

Nasah

A coward and an apologist and your dear friend? interesting notions

Blasphemy Laws -

I`m tempted to quote you about ``Khar e Essa...

I don`t believe you have been following the progression of my posts. But since lazyness is not restricted to just Hamid - My answer again : No!

Hamidm

Hey what gives - where`s my ``tear it apart`` piece?

Back to the usual things are bad, very, verrry baad mode, I see - great! Keep it up Sissyphus.

Bharatvaasi

Dear Bharatvaasi,

If I may, a more correct statement of Mr. Musharraf`s poition is not that it is a ``single point`` agenda - it is that Kashmir as the core, holds the position of centrality, in the agenda of talks between us and the Indians. Mr. Musharraf wants to talk about the range of interests between Pakistan and Indian - First things first, though. The Indians are dying with regularity, Mujahideen are dying, the brutality and cruelty of the Indian armed forces is a measure of the desperation they experience, the granting of immunity to the security forces is a measure of the desperation the central government of India feels, Kashmir is on the minds and i the hearts of a good number of Pakistanis and Indians - So, it it unreasonable to imagine the kashmir should be tackled first? Indian newspaper editors do not think so.



Dost Mittar

Dost

If the stuff about a linear progession of Indian history is garbage (I believe you do agree that it is) - on what basis an we arrive at that Indian civilization is a valid concept?

Read my post again - you agree that the same intellectuals trends, the same customs, traditions did not prevail in the entirety of the Indian land mass - you do agree with this ?

If you do agree and - it would be difficult now to disagree, having discarded the rubbish about ``the`` linear progression of ``the`` Indian history - we cannot arrive at a statement asserting ``the`` Indian civilization? Can we?

There is no point in injecting personal barbs in to these conversation - whether or not I am the only person you know who rejects.. - this pointless - just follow the line of reasoning and you cannot come to a conclusion too far from the assertion that there is no ``the`` Indian civilization but rather civilizations - as in the plural - as in a chink in the Hindutva armour

Do you follow? As in no easy, untrue, history by complicated, multiple histories.

Stuka

Please post your understanding of the cartoon next to my letter, because I think it is meant to signify the distaste of the fundoos to what I said.

-YLH

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Hobbyty

Really, the idea Lashkar-e-Jabar and cronies are an Indian plot is intellectually indefensible. Were these Indians involved in Afghanistan, Iran, Pakistan and Algeria?

I suggest you check out RAWA.org (thanks Sadna, I had forgotten about this website)

regards

Stuka,

Thanks for pointing out my letter to me... I didnt know it was published. I took the cartoon as `Mullahs shocked at the public declaration of the truth`.... Kindly explain to me any other explanation you might have...

Thanks for your take on Calcutta Killings...

Gowardhan,

Not that its your business but I mentioned only books that I found to be the best... over the last 2 years that I have been interested in the topic I have read more than 100... but whose counting...

Anyway, none of what Stuka said negates what I had said earlier... you blamed Jinnah and AIML for the Calcutta Killings... even stuka doesnt seem to indicate that its not true... Gowardhan go read and please dont try to find allies where there arent any.... Stuka is much too sophisticated and open minded (owing to an AIR FORCE background) to ever be party to your propaganda and your simplification of History.

-YLH

Layman # 1059

``I would view it more as a gimmick by the BJP/extreme right to get votes than anything else.``

And it works every time.Look at the political

scene in Uttar pradesh.

Regards.

Layman # 1059

``I would view it more as a gimmick by the BJP/extreme right to get votes than anything else.``

And it works every time.Look at the political

scene in Uttar pradesh and the forthcoming elections.

Regards.