Empty Vessels And All That Jazz

I`d like to go back to a much earlier point pertaining to our need for developed muslim leadership because this often fuzzes my logic. Are we waiting for the likes of another messiah to appear from amongst our masses to rescue us from our ownselves? It would be likened to looking for diamonds amongst a coal field... a miracle! Coal fields essentially do not have the right environment to produce anything as strong as a diamond. Just as, presently, the muslim world does not have the correct milieu to bring forth a successful leader term after term. It`s not a single good and trustworthy leader we are hoping for but a succession.... continuity. This environment is dependent on the individual (the single drop within the sea) and on their means of educating, parent to child, teacher to student or more correctly media to the masses. And it doesn`t change within a single generation but over several, we hope for change impossibly fast. Every choice that the single person makes sends ripples throughout the world. A better, individual choice leads to a better environment which leads to better leaders. It would be a lot easier, though, if it happened the other way around.

Reply #: 203 rsridhar

It`s heartening that you are doing something tangible for your country. It`s also heartening that you`re a realist and not a Pakistani Basher just for the sake of being so. You have seen there`re people like me too who never bash India, not even over Kashmir.

Regards and keep up the good work.

re:Reply #: 196

Zeemax,

It is true there is a lot of poverty in India. We in US are trying to make a difference. I am sponsoring a child`s education for life. Recently i gave money for Shankara Netralaya, which performs free cataract and retinal surgeries. My parents through us (me and my sibs) are helping an organisation called ``Helping hands`` in Madras which actually adopt newborns left uncared on the streets (no doubt by unwed mothers). This organisation is doing a great service. I am sure almost all Indians in Chowk are doing something in their own small/big way.

Poverty in India is for all to see. It is not carefully hidden from eyes (as the case in some communist countries like China). But institutions in India are strong. Democracy is vibrant. See the latest assembly results. BJP is being chastised by these very poor people.

India however is not as poor as it was say 50 years ago. It is going to take a long time. Are we on the right track? You bet.

Sridhar

re:Reply #: 192

FARANGI_KUSH,

Sorry for butting in. I cannot help it if you are making all nasty accusations about India. This is coming from a Pakistani (i know you guys do not like to be called Pakis)! The whole world is at your balls and you have the balls to tell us we are ugly and we stink. Yes, we may be all that but we are no terrorists. We do not go about slitting foreign journalist`s throat in full view of the camera for ransom. We do not run Madrassas filled with hate. And we do not tolerate getting dictations on how to act by the world`s sole superpower. Mushy boy is on record saying he is not used to dictation from another country but at personal level he does not mind Uncle Sam`s dick stationed permanently in his country. What a sham?

A lot of things are wrong with India. Poverty is there and so is hope. Did you read that BJP is getting its A$$ whipped in the assembly elections. Its jingoistic activities will be curtailed. See how democracy is at work. Those filthy, poor ba$tards are giving a lesson in democracy to your despicable country that has to prop up a freaking dictator every now and then like an eye-sore. That dictator promises everytime to do a miracle and everyone in your country cheers from sidelines until the doomsday arrives. This scenario has been enacted so many times in the past that one wonders what is wrong with Pakistanis? Why can`t they get it?

Let us talk statistics. What is the level of education in your country? What are the Infant and Maternal mortality rates? How many children under 14 get educated? Are these parameters better than India? If not, why don`t you and other chowkies just shut up and keep hoping some dictator someday will do a miracle for you guys. Meanwhile, democracy can take a hike.

Sridhar

Reply #: 200 sadna

Sadna I can never forget those images of India. Those haunt me all the time. Let me tell you today the only people who picked me up when I was down; one was a well-known Hindu Tycoon in Calcutta whom I had saved from great disaster, the other an Israeli Jew who had been completely impoverished in business but I picked him up as he was struggling and I was in a position to help. It didn`t matter to me what color or religion they were. They were and are just simply friends. I had helped them in their time of need and they never forgot that. All of my Muslim brothers forgot whom I had helped just the same ..

I have great love for India. That`s why I couldn`t bear to see that mother begging with a son with empty pits in place of eyes. We have no fight at all. I had advocated a common market in my Millenium Manifesto which could bring out both our countries from darkness. However, in the cacaphony of madness these small voices are lost.

My regrets if anything offended you in my posts.

Rgds

Zeemax

Zeemax #198
Thats what uppity Indians do, Zeemax. I am sure this is a useful fact for when Pakistani loan defaulters appear before the NAB or IMF whatever.

Sadna the 1 billion Indians are our friends .. think about it .. we`re not enemies ..

Sadna, please tell me why that woman beggar gouged out her six month old son`s eyes .. I haven`t found an answer yet. Perhaps you can tell me.

I retract the uppity statement. Although it was true. Indians are uppity for no reason.

Tell me why she gouded out her son`s eyes.

Rgds

Zeemax #196
Interesting replies. Hope it is at last dawning on you and your friend F_K that ALL 1 billion odd Indians are `uppity` even the beggars.

Just got back from 4 days of attending `Basant` in Lahore.

Reply #: 167 Syed Ahmed

Thanks for a very enlightening lesson in distant history. Do expand a bit on the relationship, real or perceived, between the present day Muslims and the Assyrians.

Reply #: 171 shammi

``Is software coding any less labor intensive, and less value added?``

I think your question has been answered in Reply #: 175 of harimau. Software coding is just sweatshop stuff. Same as stitching garments that someone at the `value-added` end has designed.

Reply #: 175 harimau

``A single Boeing 747 at $150 million+ will pay for a lot of $1 T-shirts from Bangladesh or $5 shoes from Brazil``

That`s exactly my point. Thanks for illustrating it so well.

Reply #: 176 tahmed321

Yes it`s true the Overseas Chinese are a major source of foreign capital in China, but there`re Chinese and there`re Chinese. You find all sorts within the Chinese. The people who are investing are the Mandarin speaking i.e. Taiwanese, Singaporeans, Indonesian/Malaysian/Thai ethnic groups who all speak Mandarin. The others i.e. the Cantonese and the Shanghainese bore the brunt of the cultural revolution and they`re in no hurry to get back in there. It`s a very fine distinction to make when studying China as the Chinese, even though they may look the same, are actually very different.

Reply #: 177 SameerJB; Reply #: 178 sadna

Thanks Sameer. I respect Sadna`s wishes not to discuss Biblical conflicts, although I wonder why? If doing that raises one`s level of understanding, as yours and Syed Ahmed`s post raised mine substantially, it`s knowledge after all we`re seeking right? Or is it just chatting back & forth .. I`ld like to think everyone here is seeking knowledge and perhaps attaining some.

Reply #: 183 tahmed321

``we should be worrying about how to make our educated unemployed part of the ``global economic system``.

I wish you God Speed. I sincerely mean it. However, it can`t be done given the prevalent `global economic system`.

Reply #: 186 sadna, Reply #: 187 saminashah, Reply #: 189 SameerJB, Reply #: 190,

FARANGI_KUSH, Reply #: 191

sadna, Reply #: 192 FARANGI_KUSH, Reply #: 195

sadna.

Ken Lay and the Enron affair is peanuts. Just the usual treachery. Wonder how many more Enrons are out there.

Now I hope someone goes back to my posts about BCCI. Enron methodically cheated it`s investors and pretty much everyone else using exactly the BCCI corporate structure. I think this exonerates BCCI completely. BCCI had invented this method of a corporate structure to protect itself from attack from hostile regulators. Enron used the same structure to cheat and plunder. While BCCI`s liquidation was sufficient to meet most creditor`s claims, Enron`s creditors will be lucky to get a cent for the Dollar.

As for Sadna`s uppity attitude, I have been to Delhi, Bombay and Calcutta. I have seen swarms of maimed beggars outside Delhi Fort including a woman who had gouged out her son`s eyes in order to beg. I actually stopped and asked her why? And she said she could have more sons .. no problem. It was impossible to open the car window in Calcutta because of the stench. There were people all around pissing and defacating in the streets. Power was only on for a few hours in a day. I was staying with very rich people but I opted out because it was just so painful to see humanity living in worse conditions than mongrels. Bombay is pretty much the same though to a lesser degree than Calcutta. I really don`t see what Sadna is so uppity about?

Regards

Zeemax

F_K #192
FARANGI_KUSH hates Indians and Hindus and says so in every post. Ho hum.

We are facing a serious military crisis and

the only answer is to call back from retirement

the undefeated legendry hero: General Aqleem Aktar

Rani, HJ.

Her secret exploits in 1971 read lke the annals of military history and remind us of Napoleon, Manstein and Rommel. Had she been in charge we would not have suffered the indignity of Kargil.

I propose that she be immediately brought out of retirement; given a facelift and applied good red rouge purchased from a CSD store put in uniform and made a Field Marshal supreme command of all land, air and naval forces of Pakistan.

Re Zeemax (170):

The account of Issa-ibne-Marriam that I presented has been arrived at by piecing together evidence from the New Testament and historical records. This account is consistent with Quran and hadith, only if these are correctly read and understood. Facts about Issa-ibne-Marriam have always been poorly understood, mainly due to his controversial role in the three major religions of the world, namely Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

The corrupt Jewish clergy, in order to maintain their authority over the masses, rejected Issa as the long-awaited Messiah mentioned in the Torah. In their efforts to show that Issa is not a prophet of God and therefore does not have any divine support, they attempted to crucify him.

Christians on the other hand believe that Issa was the Son of God, that he died on the cross to wash away the sins of the mankind, was later resurrected, and finally ascended to “heavens”. The truth regarding Issa surviving crucifixion, escaping, successfully preaching the message of God to the Israelites, and finally dying like any other mortal human would shake the foundations of present day versions of Judaism and Christianity. This fear is probably the driving force behind suppression of truth about Issa-ibne-Marriam.

As far as I can tell, there is no evidence to support the notion of Issa`s divine Sonship in Bible. Actually, Bible clearly indicates that Issa was alive when taken down from the cross. Bible also gives account of Issa moving about, meeting with his disciples, eating fish and honey to show that he is indeed a human and not a ghost … all this after he was put on the cross. But this evidence is largely ignored and/or misinterpreted by most Jewish and Christian scholars.

The Christian idea of Issa “ascending to heavens” eventually found its way in the mainstream Muslim thought process. Quran and hadith were later re-interpreted to accommodate these notions. Such interpretation inadvertently resulted in contradictions within Quran, within hadith, and between religion and rationality … but these contradictions are largely ignored and/or explained in a twisted manner by the Muslim ullema of our times.

As I mentioned in the link, several scholars (from eastern and western parts of the world) have arrived at similar conclusions. Some of them actually traveled to Kashmir, searched through local historical records, and found undeniable evidence of Issa surviving the cross and traveling to Kashmir. This is also a deeply cherished belief of the Ahmadi-Muslims all over the world. Hundreds of books have been published on this issue by Ahmadis as well. Such discoveries have posed tough questions for the mainstream religious scholars … which remain largely unanswered.

On the same board, in other posts I explained some more on this issue. You may find posts #415, 423, 425 helpful. Here’s the link …

http://www.chowk.com/bin/showr.cgi?f=phoodbhoy_dec0701&n=160#reply423

You may find the following website helpful as well .. it contains info and pics of tomb of Jesus and more …

www. tombofjesus.com

Asad

sadna----191

Yours is the only country named after a religion(if one can be charitable & call Hindoo-ism that).

Then You guys love to call yourself India.What kind of CRAP is that---is it in memory of the farangies you collaborated with?--Then sometimes this ``Now I`m Hindoo,now I`m not`` becomes Bharat.Then Hindoooooooostaaan.

Name one country which is so accursed by identity crisis.I`ve met several commies,socialists,liberals and such specimen who, the moment they can write ABC ,who spit & tell everyone around ``O,I`m not a bloody hindu``.

It is for the commie liberal types that Hindutva is bad.But no matter how bad they are they are not subservient to alien philosophies(if one can call `an idiots` guide to colonialism` philosophy).

Never ever try to paint a rosy picture of a Hindoo country which is a festering sore,bleeding ulcer & drooling leper on the face of the earth.Ask those who have been there.It is dirty,ugly,starving,faeces & urine drenched,& a paradise for dung-beetles.

A Hindoo who visited after long time told me of the urinating & defecating,row upon row,on railway platforms looking across their mirror-like images.All hindoos.

In order to cross the road in Delhi,he had to take a rickshaw!--Full of dirt,flies,& fumes one cannot even breath.And then the claim to ``progress`` by digit-coolies,& satellite,& going nuclear.Now C`mon just look at the faces of Bajpai & his hindoo cabinet-----was there something amiss without such specimen.

The Bhaand & Kanjar Bollywood(now Mollywood?---you HIS Masters VOICES) tries to show the advantage of being hooker & pimp rather than becoming a practising hindoo or a Secularist with dagger in the armpit & Lenin on the lips.

F_K #190
F_K, know your enemies. Ignorance about those whom you are fighting willnot serve your cause in any way.
Show me one corrupt official in India who has ever said that he is persecuted for his corruption because he is Hindu. Indians as a whole doesnot subscribe to conspiracy theories except the Hindutva guys. I think thats one of the benefits of representative govt. for so many years, as a society you realise that you or your govt. are yourself responsible for a lot of what happens to you.

SameerJB #189
`` Having said this about historical injustices, let me differentiate them from some of the historical injustices continuing to this day. You know what I am talking about - the status of women, untouchables and many others. They need to be challenged with full force. These issues are old but even more relevant today than in the past. ``

Well said. One has to also be careful not respond to historic injustices by commiting more historic injustices like the Israelis are now doing.

ZEEMAX:

MY apologies.My computer is being repaired.I am sending this from elsewhere.I do promise to hit hard at the wannabee westerners.

_______________________________________________

Sadna--186

And if Ken Lay is Hindoo(``call me Indian secularist now``) he will argue how the everyone has been screwing the hindoos from time immemorial.How their inablity to defend themselves(call me non-violent please) has resulted in mass conversions.Ken Lay would also have a tough time justifying his brahminism whose corruption is

also subject to quotas.

Ken Lay the Hindoo would argue that a neighbour is to be blamed which is bent upon letting secret share-holders slip through who are infact terrorists who did the Enron in.

If Ken Lay is a Hindoo he will make an a impassioned plea to construct a temple(zoo)which would give sanctuary to some stone-animals who must be kissed & sucked at appropriate places.He would also blame the wretched,starving,emaciated,garbage-riffling,homeless,hindoos who form over 50%

You seen Ken lay can Lay a lot of hindoos.