Another One Bites The Dust

Aoa. U wrote a good article. If u doesn’t mind can u write about after university life?
I mean we got lot of knowledge from universities but after that did we give some thing about over society?
Thanks

Shandana I think you were being a bit naiive when you trusted him initially and expected him not to act like Zia.

Sattar,

I admire your faith. And patience.

Best regards,

Patrick

Zafar, PM, Saminashah,

Your kind, encouraging comments are very humbling … and much appreciated.

It is a travesty that Islam has been hijacked by the corrupt religious elements and disfigured beyond recognition. This religion once attracted the powerless, the down-trodden, and the innocents of the society … and is now sadly seen as a barbaric ideology by a significant part of the world.

It seems that the silent majority of Pakistan, who by large are respectable, peace loving folks … are all too occupied with daily hustle and bustle to devote much time/energy to sorting out the mess the mullahs have created. In absence of any structured resistance, the mullahs have gone on to define Islam for them and for the rest of the world. This will change one day … I have faith in Allah Almighty … the Living and Just God of the worlds.

Urstruly Sahib,

Another thought on the issue of ahadith … that you cite to support your position …

Admittedly, there are several ahadith that clearly mention (as commonly understood) a two thousand year old prophet residing in the sky … who will one day descend on the shoulders of two angels, fight the one-eyed monster riding a giant, fire-breathing donkey … Go figure!

Usually, when I raise this point … you become silent on the issue … and stop responding to my posts. So much for your belief in ahadith!

On the other hand, the Quranic verses that clearly negate your claim … also remain unanswered … while you continue to insist that you have addressed this issue. BTW, that bogus link you provided … does not shed any light on the Quranic injunctions either …

Zafar, PM, Saminashah,

Your kind comments are very humbling … and much appreciated.

It is a travesty that Islam has been hijacked by the corrupt religious elements and disfigured beyond recognition. This religion once attracted the powerless, the down-trodden, and the innocents of the society … and is now sadly seen as a barbaric ideology by a significant part of the world.

It seems that the silent majority of Pakistan, who by large are respectable, peace loving folks … are all too occupied with daily hustle and bustle to devote much time/energy to sorting out the mess the mullahs have created. In absence of any structured resistance, the mullahs have gone on to define Islam for them and for the rest of the world. This will change one day … I have faith in Allah Almighty … the Living and Just God of the worlds.

Urstruly Sahib,

Another thought on the issue of ahadith … that you cite to support your position …

Admittedly, there are several ahadith that clearly mention (as commonly understood) a two thousand year old prophet residing in the sky … who will one day descend on the shoulders of two angels, fight the one-eyed monster riding a giant, fire-breathing donkey … Go figure!

Usually, when I raise this point … you become silent on the issue … and stop responding to my posts. So much for your belief in ahadith!

On the other hand, the Quranic verses that clearly negate your claim … also remain unanswered

For the record,

I still stick by my characterization of Sheema Kirmani, based on both my personal experience at Yale University, and in the New York times...

-YLH

Ylh,

Ah yes, the old `switch and bait`...tiny qualified begrudging admission of possible incorrectness after you spent fifty posts clamoring up and down that said person was a liar and a b, and that we were all wrong and delusional...Sarwari may have been useful in your little temper tantrum agenda (and folks, wouldn`t THAT e-mail exchange have been interesting to read), but I don`t actually care....I`ve read your ``responses`` and I find them appropriate for someone your age and temperment.

Now you start bleating about other interactors who have not been one third as annoying as you have proved to be for two years straight. You`ll understand if no one`s interested.

Btw, IF you want people to stop misrepresenting your stances, I`d suggest you do the same. That means if other interactors write different perspectives you refrain from the childish name calling, and spamming of the boards.

Good luck and I wish you well in the future.

re. Samina Shah, Zafar, Sattar, #586

hear! hear!

Sattar bhai, I would have thought that the jerk`s ridiculous accusation that you were intent on cursing the Prophet would be enough to make you realize that you (and I) are dealing with a man (apologies to all men) who will stoop to any depths to `win` an argument, and that any further attempt at reasoning with him is a complete exercise in utility.

There are some folks you can reason with and some you just can`t.

regards,

PM

Re Urstruly,

Here’s some more on the topic of ahadith which are at times misused as basis for unfair practices by the mullahs. You quoted …



“… Keep in mind that Holy Prophet did punish people who disrespected him, it is well documented … “

I earlier mentioned that owing to human inclination to err, not all hadith can be considered accurate. Ahadith that conflict with Quranic injunctions, are frankly inaccurate and should not be followed. Also, as far as I know, there are several ahadith that contradict each other … and sometimes violate clear Quranic commandments! So, what should a Muslim rather trust? Works of men who narrated and recorded ahadith after 100 - 200+ years of the Prophet’s death … or the Word of Allah?

Now, it is conceivable that the Prophet (pbuh) had people punished for various anti-social activities. These people in turn probably also blasphemed the Prophet (pbuh). However, this does not establish the cause-and-effect equation where blasphemy is the reason why these people were punished.

To round things up … consider the following …

In verse 60 of Surah-e-Ahzab Quran advocates killing those who are “hypocrites, people whose hearts are diseased, and those who cause agitation in the City (by spreading rumors etc.)”. This verse is often cited by those who support blasphemy laws. A closer look at the context of this verse suggests otherwise.

The earlier verses of this chapter make it clear that the Quran is referring to the times of war, when the enemy has united against Muslims and is conspiring to annihilate them. In this particular case, it was the Battle of Ditches. Then, the kuffar of Quraish, some Bedouin tribes, and some Jewish tribes had united, attacked the Muslims, and conspired to finish them off. The title of surah, i.e. “Ahzab”, meaning “Confederates”, makes the context clearer. It is in such times that those who conspire against the Muslim community are to be slain.

In such a state of war, spreading rumors against the Prophet (pbuh), who was the central figure in this conflict … and also the commander-in-chief of the army … is not mere blasphemy … it constitutes anti-state conspiracies designed to annihilate the besieged, innocent Muslim community. In such times it is fine to severely punish, and even execute, those who resort to hate-mongering and spreading rumors.

Now read the quote from your reply … that I have reproduced at the beginning of this post. Hopefully, things will make more sense.

There are numerous ahadith where the Prophet (pbuh) forgave those who ridiculed and insulted him, tortured him, stoned him bloody, attacked his community with an army, and planned to kill them. Let’s not ignore these ahadith now … they too are “well-documented” … and above all, consistent with the message of Quran. The dear Prophet (pbuh) not only forgave them, but also prayed for them!

Frankly, it does not fit the profile of a person called Rehmat-ul-Alameen (Mercy for all the worlds) to go around killing people for merely blaspheming him. Such behavior fits a barbaric, ego-maniac, and I refuse to believe that the dear Prophet (pbuh) resorted to such practices. At the same time, Quranic injunctions clearly command believers to merely stop mingling with those who blaspheme against the signs of Allah or the Prophet (pbuh).

[[ May-17-02 22:55:26 EST Reply #: 563

saminashah

Progressive, (Pig Member Breath,)

What do you want from us khabees admi? Your opinions are not respected or wanted, your cut and pastes are slightly more intellectual than your puerile posts...you couldn`t string together a half comprehensible sentence if your life depended on it...why are you writing pathetic little posts to people who are actually debating a topic in a decent manner? Go curse yourself silly.``]]



Samina ;-)

ROTFL.NOW THATS FUNNY ...HA HA HA LOL

Hamidm

There more interesting stuff in that post, such as ``some confuse this with relativism or postivism``. Discerning the Eternal from the temporal, has been a challenege, not just for Ulema, but all of us.

In the material I had offered, in particular the work of Dr. Karl Popper and the understanding of ``method`` and the criteria of discern science from non-science - is ``one`` key to allow Muslims to negotiate the interpretation of Quran.

I very much agree, that there is to my reading, no explicit injuction - there is a warning about the evil and danger of not being ``present``, of escape - again some have confused this to mean to understand that those who drink are alcoholics and drunks.

I believe Temporal puts the smackdown as far as the article is concerned in his post:

``?The NY Times article published last friday is full of disinformation and misquotes. This reporter called from Islamabad and wanted to meet Sheema. It so happened there was a dance performance of her arranged by the horticultural society. So he saw the performance. Later he came over to Sheema`s place and had a kind of a social chat with her. During all this time he never took any notes! It appears that while in Pakistan he never switched on any Pak tv channels. There`s a 24-hour Indus Music channel which like V, MTV,MM,MMM does nothing but play songs and of course there`s a lot of dancing. The other 4 channels also have a big chunk of their time taken up by music and dances. During the referendum all day there were songs and dances. There are regular dance performances as well. Then culturally every wedding, be of the poor or rich has days of dancing prior to the Nikah. Hey why am I telling you this? This gora just poured out his hidden racist feelings and distorted vision about Pakistan.

Sheema had mentioned about:

1, dance being banned in !981 during Zia dictatorship;

2, The difficulties one faces to get an NOC an archaic law dating back to over 100 years;

3,and classical dancing a sort of dying art just as classical music because of today`s trends.

Sheema does not recollect saying certain things that he has quoted as if he was taking notes.This man made a story as if to dance in Pakistan is a grave criminal act! Officially this government has put a new life in Pakistan National Council of Arts (PNCA); giving them big funding. The PNCA has already organised whole evenings of dance performances. Sheema is directing the dance programmes. Every year national and international dance festivals are held in Karachi or Lahore or Islamabad. I have the copy of the article. It is very cleverly and well written except that it paints a largely false picture of the reality. Even the reporter demoted by two ranks Sheema`s father to Major! He was

Brigadier General?]``

If indeed, this is what Sheema`s stance is then I am wrong but the truth is that I have heard this woman speak at Yale and she made the same obnoxious claims there... So I doubt that your mutual friend is telling the truth.

-YLH

Since everyone is taken `Umbrage` to my justified and totally accurate characterization of Sheema Kirmani, I also must condemn others for their unprovoked and bigoted attacks.. in my last post I presented the case of saxena, whose posts are without exception always profane and Moronic...

Now I must condemn Akash`s post 568:

``But dont ever refer me to Ali1`s posts. I never bother to read the posts of that ba$tard.``

I hope all of the valiant crusaders for dignity will join me in this condemnation of Akash, thereby showing that their umbrage is not exclusive to Pakistanis alone...

-YLH

The reference in my last post was to #554..

samina shah,

You ask where I am.. I have responded in detail to you.. Perhaps you wouldn`t mind reading it. Dhoondhni parti hain posts.. look closely you will find my replies... As for sarwari, she works for CNN now and only at my request does she come here, otherwise, I don`t think she has time to waste especially on people she thinks are just not worth it.

Waisay I am amazed at the way, my statement against a `public figure` is taken to be so offensive, and I am accused of hurling abuses, which I admit of doing so in provocation and which is my inalienable right to do so if provoked, Rsaxena`s comments which are without exception always profane and moronic, are not only tolerated by the likes of you, but even encouraged, and embraced, not only against me, but when someone like Farzana Versey writes an article against say your beloved (undoubtedly male chauvinist par excellence) Mr. Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi aka Mahatma, and rsaxena goes on into his rampage against her.

I suppose they just don`t classify as `insults` right.. I mean `dipshit` is so much better !

temporal,

Point taken!

Mithuna,

The claim was made at Yale University on April 9th 2001.