What I Saw In Okara

# 61 Prem

U are SO right.

#55

Like PM said, ``define dumb``. Is it because his ``looks`` tend to get women all sweaty, his pretty wife tends to them all jealous, and they expect him to be some Scarlet Pimpernal-type hero spewing verse and rescuing citizens?

Get real. He`s just as smart or dumb as the rest of us, and just as human. I detest it when people talk about his (or anyone else`s) personal affairs - he married a ``jewess`` (btw not true, and even if he did, so what), he married for money, blah blah.

The guy built a hospital, in case u all forget. A FREE cancer hospital.. for hundreds and thousands of people. How many of u smarty-pants did that recently?

He played a game that thousands of people love, and won for his side so many times. He gave laughter, smiles, joy, happiness, and a future to many many people. WHAT MORE DO U WANT?

In today`s day and age, if a person like that cannot be called a leader, NO ONE deserves to be called a leader.

Everyone makes politics out to be this dirty dirty game, and it has gotten to that level simply because of smart people like u all.

We need leaders who will give people light, and hope, and reach out and touch them on a personal level. Not monsters.

For ALL the wonderful things he has given the world, Imran Khan is the smartest bestest man alive, because he has shown that he cares. So there! :P

Prem, anNy,
Please define dumb. If dumb is the abscence of enough political savvy to know say what the people want to hear (``no new taxes``, ``roti, kapra makaan for everyone in six months``, and ``freedom for Kashmiris`` in two) then yes, I agree Imran is `truly dumb`.
Ok, so he`s not the smartest man in the whole wide world. Guess what, you don`t HAVE to be-- not in a sitaution like Pakistan`s where the only real solutions are tough and lie in getting the basics right and dropping the BS about instant salvation (which, btw, Premji, is exactly, what most `common` Pakistanis, it appears, WANT to hear no matter how many times the like of NS and BB pull the wool over their eyes. Pakistani political sentiment is dictated way too much by familial affiliation to the `dynasties`. Whatever `dissent` is shown comes in the form of abstinence rather than the honest look for alternatives. That, more than anything else may be the tradegy of that heroic figure Imran khan.
So tell me, anNy, if Imran Khan knows nothing about `ruling`, which of his opponents have demonstrated or indicated a higher aptitude, such as to explain his relative unpopularity?
rgds,
PM

Ref Zero-Credit #5620, 2002 8:47am PT
[Sanghi Parivar are killing for Infedility ...read the news below ?
http://www.mid-day.com/news/city/2002/september/32056.htm
A man killed his pregnant wife last night suspecting her of infidelity and surrendered to police. Police said Mahendra Atmaram Mayekar (36) was married to Prajakta (29) in December 2001.
Last night, when the rest of the family members were out of the house for Ganpati immersion, Mahendra slit his wife`s throat with a sickle, killing her on the spot, police said.
He then locked the main door, went to a nearby police chowky and confessed to the crime, police added.]
A man killed his wife because he thought his wife was cheating on him? In India, that would be a case of murder and the killer even promptly confessed to the murder, making his trial simple.
In Pakistan, this would be honor killing and the police would not arrest the man even if he confessed. Why, Musharraf might meet with the man for a photo session, like he did with the parents of that girl murdered in Asma Jahangir`s office.
I am curious, would you want the husband to have called the local mullah to pronounce the sentence of death by stoning and then collected a crowd to carry out the punishment?

american express 56

Here is a defining moment for the pak society, a proud moment for the educated pakistanis like you.

A young girl was killed by her own parents in the office of a well known human rights activist, asma jahangir. Un like the indian news report you quoted, the police declared that it is a common paki past time caleed honour killing. No one was arrested, police refused to file a case.

The entire democratically elected parliment with nawaz as prime minister passed a resolution supporting the non- criminality, read favourite past time, of honour killing.
Nawaz aws overthrown by a military dictator. With in the first three months he invited the parents, the killers for a photo shoot into his office, once again up holding the essential values of pakistanis like you. ( on chowk there is an article, 100 days of mushy and read about honouring of the killers by mushy)

My dear american express, here waht we have in pakistan is the killing as a legitimate sport. If you are a pakistani, you should know that honour killing is defined by the brutality and the public display of the crime. That is what makes it legal, and it is the mullah who declares the killing as related to honour, no police action. Learn about pakistan before reading indian news papers.
Read and be proud of the pak legal system that every pakistani is so proud, the great military ois proud to defend, the one every kashmiri is looking forward to.

Just curious about about apprehensions expressed in Pakistani newspapers about `pre-poll rigging` and `King`s party`?

Suppose there is a healthy turnout and there is no `significant` ballot box stuffing, would people indeed choose to vote for only the military- `approved` candidates? One would think BB/ NS or others should at this time be issuing strident and repeated calls to vote to ensure a good turnout.

LOL anny!
The friday times has a funny top ten reaons this issue about Imran that is worth a look. In any case, Imran is not very intelligent and he is very arrogant as well. Running a cancer Hospital is different from running a country, but arrogance and lack of intelligence are far from the exlusive preserve of Imran, to his credit at least he doesn`t have their other trait of corruptability..just yet!

Hmm I hope Omair isnt reading this..I`ve started defending Imran Khan!!!

There can be little doubt that Imran Khan is well-meaning, has made significant positive contributions in a number of areas, and is far less likely to be corrupt than many other politicians.

That may well be reason enough to vote for him. I personally won`t make that choice, but I am not in Pakistan. The best judge of such things will always be the average Pakistani - the small shop keeper, the office goer, the day laborer, the housewife (or househusband), the farmer. It is their native wisdom that we must learn to respect.

I have often wondered why people become corrupt. I am told that Nawaz Sharif, Benazir Bhutto, and Imran Khan share one common trait - they are all filthy rich. The same is true of many so-called leaders in India. Why do these people need more money, particularly money acquired at the cost of selling their souls to the devil? If it is drive for power motivating them, one can gain more power by giving things away than by hoarding silly trinkets that money buys.

In any case....

And I am in perfect health. Thank you.

Imran, Jemima hostile to Islam, Chaudhries clean politicians: PML-QA`s fits of insanity- LAHORE: Sept 23: The PML-QA command has decided to file a reference with the Election Commission of Pakistan against Tehreek-i-Insaaf Chairman Imran Khan. This was announced by PML-QA Punjab Secretary Information Kamil Ali Agha while addressing a Press Conference at Muslim League House. He said through the reference, the Election Commission would be asked to take notice of Imran Khan and his wife Jemima Khan`s activities which are hostile to Islam. He said Imran Khan has become a security risk; and through the reference, his source of income and personal character in the light of Article 62 and 63 of the Constitution are also being raised. The PML-QA leader said that the party is also issuing a white paper against PPP Parliamentarians through which their black deeds would be highlighted. He went on claim that there is no corrupt man in the PML-QA which has neat and clean leadership at all levels throughout the country. He, however did not specifically mention as to when this reference will be filed and what relief the PML-QA will seek from the Election Commission in this respect. (Courtesy: THE STAR) (Posted @ 14:50 PDT)

From DAWN


Imran, Jemima hostile to Islam, Chaudhries clean politicians: PML-QA`s fits of insanity- LAHORE: Sept 23:

pmishra -- while u missed the demented headlines of the pakistani media i certainly did not miss your demented remarks on this forum -- hahah

prem
`I may be wrong, but I have a strong feeling that I am not. The gentleman truly is dumb`

LOL

ive met the gentleman twice and he is quite dumb..once was about 7-8 years ago when he was starting off his shaukat khanum campaign and one recently..he is sincere, well mannered, has just the right amount of obnoxiousness, charm and arrogance to attract those willing to be attracted..but if u talk to him for a while, he`s overall quite stupid..he banks too much on himself: how people will believe what he says because he says it..he doesnt understand why ppl wouldnt want him keeping im mind his sincerity i.e. all he has done for the nation, won us the world cup (he actually said that once i red in an interview somewhere) made the hospital etc...so while he is probably our only chance at a decent honest (not to mention sexy) ruler, he knows nothing about ruling and being a leader from what i can tell...but one cant help and feel really bad for him..aik tau he means well and then he just sounds and looks so nice :(
hope all is well with you
anNy

re: Zakkk # 49

Goes to show how ignorant I am of Pakistani politics. The concept of Imran Khan as an underdog makes no sense to me. The closest analogy I can think of would be someone like Amitabh Bachhan (a person I like very much) who got hammered (mauled, pummelled, and beaten) in politics because the guy had no real political legs, nothing significant to say. That was an attempt to cash in on fading good looks, easy money, and empty words directed at empty heads.

True, I may not be entirely fair to Imran Khan. For instance, he may not have entered into political alliances for some very moral and good reasons. However, I immediately suspect any of the following three factors: 1. the guy has no significant political standing of his own for anyone else to bother with him 2. he can`t get along with others 3. the military has already assured him of a democratic victory.

But I grant I am being quite a skeptic.


re: PM # 46

You caught me on the wrong foot there! A confession is in order.

As you must figured out from my reply to Zakkk, my opinion about Imran Khan is based on trivial slices of impressions, not detailed knowledge. Most likely, I am mouthing my biases. But everytime I read any of the man`s statements, my biases get reinforced.

For instance, consider the last paragraph in anNy`s post (#47). Here is his innocent wife being - as far as I think, unfairly - hauled over the coals by religious thugs and good-for-nothing, corrupt, pen pushers. And what does our man have to say to them? That Jemina read ``Shame`` when she was a student, and that they shouldn`t be doing these naughty things, else how would ``a non-Muslim convert to Islam?``

I mean, is this a man talking? An educated man? And this isn`t the only intellectual coup our friend has scored. I have read some delightful interviews he has given :) - expounding his deep views about educational system in Pakistan, about women, about ``Western Civilization,`` national finances....

I may be wrong, but I have a strong feeling that I am not. The gentleman truly is dumb.

OK, enough spewing of my prejudices. A serious question for you, PM, because I would trust your first hand experience far more than my own views based on limited information.

When you were in Karachi, did you hear Imran Khan say anything intelligent other than the kind of stuff we read in anNy # 47? Did he articulate even a vague vision related to ANY social topic?

Best.

Question Time Pakistan on Sept 20 had a General(Punjab Minister of Communication), a Mr Shafi of PML(N), a Ms Nasreen of MQM and a `social critic`, from an institute of ``democracy studies``, sorry I cannot remember all the names.

The questions covered arrests of Al Qaeda, elections in Jammu and Kashmir, whether Pakistan can have talks with the BJP in power, pre-poll rigging, performance of the Pakistani cricket team etc.

Re Al Qaeda arrests, the General was very happy, PML(N) guy said intelligence should be better because civilians were killed in crossfire, Ms Nasreen MQM said intelligence agencies are involved in political matters and basic problem is that the government has not made up its mind to give up on extremism. Mr Social Critic said, Al Qaeda`s terrorist activities are condemned by Pakistanis but support exists for its anti-imperalist and anti-American stances. Moderator found audience didnot support Al Qaeda like he said, but an audience member also said Pakistanis support just causes like Kashmir, Palestine and Chechnya also espoused by Al Qaeda.

Jammu and Kashmir elections :
A question was asked whether the `low turnout` on election day bears out the Pakistani stand that elections are a sham. Everyone agreed talking of violence and coercion by the army even the social critic talked of photos of people sitting in a line with soldiers with guns standing near them `looking` as if they had been dragged out to vote.

Ms Nasreen MQM was an exception who shocked even the moderator by saying that until any settlement is reached, whatever the turnout, holding elections in Jammu and Kashmir are appropriate. She got many `principled` followup remarks for this. Remarks like she is in effect supporting India`s occupation of Jammu and Kashmir, that elections are an attempt to fudge the basic question of selfdetermination, so they should be boycotted by Kashmiris, how can she say such a thing when the international community and Kashmiris themselves havenot accepted the Indian stance, why can`t India and Pakistan leave Kashmiris alone(applause), it should be left to the UN to take over and carry out what was spelled out in its own resolution(applause).

Ms Nasreen replied with, elections must be always be held for people to express their views, that the issue of selfdetermination will not die down simply with elections, the Hurriyat didnot take part which shows the issue is still alive, that if Pakistan had the military capability of taking over Kashmir, it should have done it a long time ago, and violence is not good. She obviously offended many in the audience.

Then a question was raised ``Vajpayee has said that India will take unilateral action against Pakistan if required. Whether given this remark and the recent past, Pakistan can hold any meaningful dialogue with India as long as BJP is in power``

Ms Nasreen said yes, the extremists in power in India will be able to get the moderates to agree to a solution. Social critic said politicians donot always mean the things they say. Moderator? said Vajpayee made this statement after Bush`s remarks about US unilateral action against Iraq just like the Indian military mobilization was in emulation of US attacks on Afghanistan.

The PML(N) guy said no thats not true, situation deteriorated before 9/11. Vajpayee didnot use such language always. When the democratic government of Nawaz Sharif was in power, Vajpayee came to Lahore, he didnot use any such language then, Nawaz Sharif and he were well on the way to resolving the Kashmir issue, it is only in the last 2-3 years of military government Vajpayee has been using any such language.

The General said, no such thing, the problem is not with Pakistan, its India`s intransigent attitude which is preventing resolution of issues, its India who mobilized. We have been offering dialogue, without dialogue how can anything be resolved, nothing can be resolved through the barrel of guns. Musharraf even went to Agra, its the mindset of the Indians which has to change see what they do to the minorities in their country see how Muslims were killed in Gujarat and the attacks on Christians, don`t we have the right to exist as a sovereign country(heavy applause).

The PML(N) panellist said Vajpayee visited and spoke at Minar-e-Pakistan. General said words are not enough, what are words good for(applause), One audience member hesitatingly said the problems began before 9/11, in fact soon after Lahore after Kargil. But moderator moved on to another audience member. (Kargil seems to be a banned word on the program btw, the moderator Ms Khan always refuses to allow it). Mr Social Critic said Indians like Americans have to do less of thinking themselves a great and big country, only then the Kashmir issue can be resolved.

Re prepoll rigging:
The MQM and PML(N) panellists said it was going on. Ms Nasreen said she saw a list on government stationery titled consensus candidates with names from the PML(Q), SDA and JUI?. She also said, MQM is facing obstacles from extremist groups including MMA, showing the intelligence agencies have not given up their predilection for political interference and extremism.
(There was a discussion somewhere around this time when she tried to say that past policies have created a mindset in the military and intelligence agencies which has not changed yet because the goverment has not made up its mind to give up on its extremist associations. Moderator labelled this as the existence of `regenade elements` and moved on)

PML(N) guy said things are being made difficult for political parties, banners put up are being torn down next day, public rallies are only partly allowed and permission given only on the day of the rally, we are not allowed to meet the voters, those who could have drawn votes are disqualified, etc etc.

General said I have been general for 14 years and seen 4 elections, let me tell you how prepoll rigging is done. He said foundations stones are laid in promise of roads, other promises are made, people are given employment, police is transferred, bureacrats are transferred, nothing of this sort is going on now.

There was banter on how civilians have never held an election it was always held by generals. The General retorted thats how you came to power. Audience enjoyed General`s comments more than PML(N) panellist`s comments.

On a question about boycott, PML(N) guy said elections are an opportunity and we donot want the government to have things its way. Everyone should indeed vote and do so for the people of their choice. Mr. Social Critic said democracy has to reach even the grassroots and so everyone must support the election process and stand up to be counted.


To a question about BB, as usual it came down to, she has been convicted, she got two chances.

A question was asked whether the Pakistani cricket teams performance is because of lack of morals or lack of morale. PML(N) guy blamed generals, General defended the generals and government, Ms Nasreen said better selection, audience said better organisation/commercialization, social critic said neither morals nor morale, like Pakistanis in general, they have to learn to play as a team.

PTI office-bearers resign, call on Shujaat
http://www.syberwurx.com/nation/daily/today/national/lhr1.htm
By Our Staff Reporter
LAHORE–A delegation of leading office bearers of Tehrik-i-Insaf called on senior PML (Qauid-i-Azam) leader Ch Shujaat Hussain and announced their resignation from the party while protesting against TI Chiefs’ attitude of arrogance against late Chaudhry Zahur Elahi saying Imran Khan had shown disrespect for the working classes and insulted the common man.
Earlier addressing a big public rally in Gujrat city former TI vice president Amir Ali lashed at TI chief and said that such arrogance of any leader was unacceptable and this did expose the fake character of those leaders who attempted to use the average citizens for their own blind ambitions. In a recent statement the TI head had tauntingly suggested that sepoys, pedestrians and their off spring are not worthy of improvement in their lives. Meanwhile Misbah Tufail ex city TI secretary general and a noted human right activist and lawyer said the same sepoys who guard our frontiers, protect our security, are the first to shed blood for the nation. She said that she was much impressed by the high values, moral character and humility of Chaudhry Shujaat Hussain. Former general secretary TI Mirza Yousaf, district joint secretary Raees Zulfiqar and Press secretary Dr Razzak lauded the services and sacrifices of late Chaudhry Zahur Elahi for the downtrodden and low-income groups. They also prayed for the success of PML (Quaid-i-Azam) in the October elections and pledged to work towards that end so as to ensure a stable and secure Pakistan for all Pakistanis.

omar_r_quraishi

Welcome back ! Edited any stories lately replacing ``murderer`` by ``freedom fighter`` ? We have been missing the more brutal and demented headlines from your media in the last few weeks.

BTW, I hear there is a wonderful freedom fight that has begun in Pakistan lately. There has been more and more ``freedom`` in Karachi and Bhawalpur. Congratulations ! Remember, it is very hard to tell the difference between freedom fighter and terrorist. Why would anyone kill themselves unless they were deeply opressed?

For some reason I did not see any
descriptions like ``Freedom Fighters kill 5 in Bhawalpur`` in Dawn? Can you please advise an unsophisticated person why this is so? Or does freedom only get involved when indians are killed?

your unsophisticated fan,