Banning cable TV

sac
#69

WAY TO GO, pal!
You are one of the few Pakistanis who tell it how it IS & no spin doctoring!

FerozeK,

I`m a little surprised you sounded a little emotional & jingoistic in your last post to sac. Are you getting infected by Romir`s ``spin doctoring`` bug?:)

Incidentally, if you take a poll of Indians; let me tell you they believe Indian propaganda OVER Pakistani propaganda. Pakistan IS interfereing in India`s INTERNAL affairs! I`m surprised as a foreign policy expert, you have no clue how an Indian mind operates!

Listen, let me explain to you sloooowly...Indians think IOK is PART OF INDIA! Now what part of THAT do you not understand?!:) Think about it---do you think Indians give a DAMN about Pakistani unacceptance of that premise? wave all the defunct anachronistic UN resolutions you want....heheh..I can make Indians sound real arrogant...

No, but seriously, ``analyse`` or introspect on the following ``data``..& forgive me if I sound crude,rude & profane, thats just me...

What international ``support`` has Pakistan got re Kashmir?
ZILCH!!
If your soul mate Arabs dont come out on the street & demonstrate against India, even after the pogrom in Gujrat...like they do every time a Palestinian dies...you got ZILCH support from the Arabs, the only ones with economic clout, in the OIC. Besides, I dont see Mahatir Mohammed giving Vaju a lesson in democracy, like he gave Mushy. Heck, ASEAN is seriously considering strengthening economic ties with India. So, who the heck is twisting India`s arm?

Pakistan has Western support?! Puhleeease dont delude yourself! Let me tell you the EXTENT of Western (read American) support....
Uhmmm...metaphorically ...West loooves ``blowjobs`` from narcicisstic Paki Generals & they PAY them WELL for their services....then you Pakis have some NERVE to complain about them!!

Yo, when did America promise Pakistan a frikking rose garden?! Pakistan is nothing more than a hopelessly broke drug addict, in debt up to its eyeballs to the West. When the West needs you, the West uses you & pays you for the.. er... services...or reschedules your loans...& throws you a few crumbs

Look at the Paki militaries MIZZAZZ!! Field Marshall Romair is of the firm belief that the brave Pakistani military machine, under Gen Zia`s benevolent Govt thwarted the Soviet Union! Welll, I`m just teasing him...but I seriously believe Romair echoes the dominant discourse or ``mentality`` of Pak military. The truth, as I see it, it was AMERICAN MONEY & SUPPORT that made all the difference in the epic ``freedom fight`` in Afghanistan!

What happened after the Soviets withdrew from Afghanistan & the US dumped Pakistan?. The great successive Paki govts made a HASH out of the Afghan policy. O yes; but its always America`s fault! Nevertheless they were SO proud & confident of their Afghan tactics & strategy that they figured it would also work in Kashmir. I think Mushy STILL thinks he can get away with Kashmir! Its laughable that the guy who has made a mockery of democracy thinks he can go to Turkey & claim the IOK elections only had a 10% turnout...

Who da` F*ck is he trying to kid? Does he really think he`s smarter than the rest of the world;? that they would accept his word , cos the world was born yesterday?!

So..bottom line... Pakistan IS directly interfering in Indian internal affairs..Indians dont care how many times Pakistan denies it. The very fact that the international media or any foreign Govt (except Pak) has NOT accused India of ``stage managing`` the attack on the Lok Sabah...etc etc...means Paki credibility in this day & age is ZILCH... You think the ``hool`` did`nt work? It made the US nervous...& what did the US do? smack Pakistan on the wrist! Yeah those soldiers may be twiddling

So please guys...wake up from your Polyannish optimism, get over the hypocritical ``Oh we are the victim`` role, step off the sanctimonious pedestal of self proclaimed ``moral victory``. You aint going to win this war. You can look at it from every which way...& hey ! dont let me stop you from quoting Ghalib & Iqbal! The most you`ll get is that the LoC is the permanent border or India will play this game ad infinitum.

So please guys...after that we can HAPPILY ignore each other..Lets both build a Berlin Wall ..on top of that lets build a Great wall of China. Do you think India gives a F*ck, about what you think of India?!

Urstruly MiaN (#68) …

Silent again? You are looking for excuses once again to avoid explaining “your” Islam. Here are a few more outstanding topics … that you continue to be silent on …

- You claimed that Issa used to raise the dead … but failed to explain this when I asked.

- You also claimed that Moses was given the miracle of magic … since magic was practiced by the people of those days. When I asked for clarification … you failed to comment.

- On the blasphemy board, I countered ALL your arguments with references to Quran, ahadith, Bible, and history. Once again, you stopped responding to my comments … and became very, very silent. I expected better … since you were the host on that board.

So what’s the difference between you and countless other jahil mullahs? NONE!!! Now, it does not matter if you believe in “Taqleed” or “Ite’baa-e-Rasool” … stupidity under any guise is sheer stupidity.

Then just like all other bigoted mullahs … you also tell us that blasphemers and apostates should be killed … that Ahmadis are justifiably declared non-Muslims by law … that jihad must be waged against polytheists.

Now you claim to totally reject JI politics. If you reject JI politics … and cannot explain your Islam … what is left of your Islam anyway? Surely your Islam is more than just bashing Ahmadis … I hope!

You may try to respond intelligently … or continue doing as the Russian proverb says … silently, of course. Take your pick, my dear friend.

Reply sattar2 #72

``Perhaps I may as well ask for the moon … or a tech recovery in first half of 2003 … or that my wife will finally stop nagging me for being clumsy...``

Sounds like you`re giving up, jee...my (unsolicited) advice: enjoy urstruly for what he is, don`t lose sleep about what he should be, that way lies despair. If you feel you must challenge some of his points, do so and rest assured that the posts are there for all to read - whether he admits a failure of logic or not.

Zafar A,

You are quite right … getting a straight answer from our onboard jamaati is tough. When he is at a loss to explain … he tosses out a few hefty Arabic terms … and tries to put a new spin on the discussion.

Consequently, we are now dealing with “Taqleed” and “Ite’baa-e-Rasool” … he claims to believe in one … and not the other. I do not know what any of this means … or how it is relevant to Urstruly refusing to use his brain.

Perhaps I may as well ask for the moon … or a tech recovery in first half of 2003 … or that my wife will finally stop nagging me for being clumsy ... in ascending order of preference.

Urstruly Sahib (#68),

You are missing the simple point … which is as follows: Negating Issa’s ascension and expected descent … is against your ullema’s Islam.

This alone shows … how absurd your ullema’s Islam has become … while they insist on forcing it on others.

I hope we can agree on this simple point!

Moving on …

It is not just Maudoodi [“one of the greatest scholars of Islam who ever lived” according to you], who subscribed to this absurdity … I posted the decision of a few other scholars that I chose randomly. This notion is mainstream Islam, Sahib. These ullema quoted from Quran to justify this nonsense! I pointed this out to you … but you failed to comment.

Surely we are not living in denial of Quran?

Furthermore …

You failed to explain your disregard for scores of authentic ahadith on this subject … while insisting that ahadith cannot be excluded from understanding Islam.

You failed to acknowledge these contradictions in your position … and went berserk when I pointed them out to you. In your fit of frustration … you told me to get a life ... without attempting to explain inconsistencies in your approach.

Now … it is these “fat butt, lethargic mullahs” [your own choice of words describing the nature of your ullema] … who are telling us that blasphemers and apostates should be executed … that Ahmadis should be imprisoned for reciting kalima … that jihad must be waged against polytheists … and more.

I hope you can now appreciate the mess your mullah and their Islam is creating in this world.

i-am-the-cheese --- hahah -- dang u caught me out
sac -- yea your absolutely right there -- already have lots of topics to write about --

Sattar

Here is what you wrote in # 53

``You are very keen on explaining the easy stuff in Islam, as seen in your prompt reply in post #34 to Karakoram. However, you are silent on the “Islamic” stupidities that I highlighted in post #39. Blatant foolishness of your mullah becomes obvious in such cases … which you are too embarrassed to discuss openly.``

AND here is what you wrote in # 64

``Urstruly Sahib, you did post philosophical ramblings on the issue of Issa’s ascension etc. ``


Reply:

Which means that you are a habitual liar. Please cut the crap of ``poking`` to get an answer and stuff, you do need to get a life. One can argue with an arrogant ignoramus but it is impossible to argue with a liar. No thanks I am still not gonna discuss these issues any more. And as far as I can rermember, it was temporal who told you to get a life.

As far as subscribing to Moulana Moudoodi and other Ulema is concerned, my answer is that I do not beleive in Taqleed, I belive in Ite`baa and that is Ite`baa-e-Rasool. However, I do think that Moudoodi Sahib is one of the greatest scholars of Islam that ever lived. But it doesn`t mean that his religious ideas cannot be dissented with. And I actually totally reject JIs politics.

re ferozk #66:

I am a little amused that you consider me an Indian. Don`t you think that facts on the ground rather than nationality or empty rhetoric masquerading as patriotism be the final arbiter?

Your exasperation as to why Indians are fixated on Pakistan rather than China leads you to make another blunder. Pakistanis ARE fixated on India. There is no such thing as *Pakistaniat* except being anti-India. If that weren`t the case, we wouldn`t be spending 52% of our budget on defence. Our ministers wouldn`t compare our telephone penetration or village electrification rates with India. These comparison were used to boost our egos when we came out ahead. Now we are going down the drain. So what if they have religious numb-nuts ruling them. Our numb-nuts given half a chance will swallow their numb-nuts whole with nary a burp.

Pakistan`s problems have an external component but it is dwarfed by its internal contradictions. Don`t expect the Indians to twiddle their thumbs and not gloat about OUR shortcomings. We alone are to be blamed for our predicament.

later
-sac

oq
so aaaall this is in leu of your love for cable marra?

Re: sac # 60

I have a question for you and that is, why are the Indians so fixiated on Pakistan? Pakistanis do not give a fig, whether who is ruling India, but why are the Indians so Pakistan centric? You have a religious party in India, which is slowly tearing up the secular foundations of the India, BJP, but Pakistan is not concerned.

You always compare India with Pakistan; a country nearly 7 times smaller than India with a population of nearly 1/10 of India`s. Why? Should you Indians not compare India with China, which is a better comparsion? Why Pakistan? Why?

There is no difference between your religious numb-nuts and ours, and both are the same in their levels of intolerance. What is the difference between a mullahcracy and a Hinduvatacracy? Both are forces of reintrenchment, but we as a nation do not interfer in the internal matters of India, but why is India so eager to judge Pakistan`s internal situation?

I have a news flash for you: Most Pakistanis do not give a damn in hell about India or what India thinks! If you hate Pakistan, Pakistanis and all Muslims in Pakistan, please recall your forces and instead of making them sit for ten long months twiddling their thumbs, order them to get the job done and destory Pakistan! You had 55 years to destroy Pakistan - could you please inform me kindly as to why India cannot finish the job?

Please, do, inform me!

Ciao

Sattar2 ref #64

Mian - why? In my considered opinion you have a better chance of teaching your cat calculus than getting the point across and (why not ask for the moon, asking is free, no?) an honest answer.

Ah, The silent genius has finally spoken … and once again uttered … complete rubbish!

Urstruly Sahib, you did post philosophical ramblings on the issue of Issa’s ascension etc. You finally claimed that these notions have been rejected by the ullema! You seem to be hoping to end the discussion without being totally disgraced.

HOWEVER, I quoted Maudoodi and other ullema, with references, who swear by ascension, and the much-anticipated descent of Issa. Their comments clearly contradicted your statements!

At that point you angrily blurted … “Sattar, get a life”, and ended the discussion. You realized that you are unable to explain Islam … without sounding like a bigoted, sub-intelligent idiot.

Sahib … you respond promptly when you think you can win the argument … but avoid discussions when you cannot intelligently explain your position. Here you have finally responded only because I forced you to … by poking fun at your awkward silence.

As one can see from my post #62 … I am not one to force my beliefs on others. It is animals like you who want to put to death others on blasphemy and apostasy … imprison Ahmadis for reciting kalima … wage jihad against polytheists … and perpetuate violence and bigotry in the name of Islam.

Alzheimers is not an issue here ... rather is your own lack of dignity and intellectual impotence ... that you are unable to deal with.

Sattar

I have given you point by point reply on your questions of Dajjal, ascention and descension of jesus or Imam Mehdi and other related issues with references from ahadith and Qura`n at another board. You did not like my reply...then it is your problem.

By the way the person who is trying to shove his beleifs on others is you by ridiculing and falsely assigning sets of belives to others who do not own them.

Sorry, I do not have time or energy to beat around the same issues repeatedly. If you want I can search and give you the link to the discussion we had on the subject. But something tells me that you have entirely different motives to bring this unrelated issue up at this time, otherwise how could someone be so beysharam - alzhimers is a different story.

Shah bhai (Re #54):

A person’s belief is strictly a matter between himself and his God. A Christian may very well believe in ascension of Jesus, and a Muslim may have similar beliefs. In short, a person should have the freedom to believe in whatever makes sense to him.

Beliefs become important … only when they are forced upon others … and are used for division and violence against others. Jews, Christians, Muslims, and Hindus will be able to live in peace only when they accept a person’s belief as a matter of his choice … and focus on treating each other with affection, dignity, and respect.

Incidentally, this is the message of Quran, which allows freedom of conscience and shuns compulsion in religious matters. Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) drove himself sick with grief over concerns for the mankind. This message of Islam, highlighted in all divine religions, is the only way for people to exist peacefully and in harmony with each other, and with their Creator.

My point of raising the issue of Jesus … was to highlight the absurdities that have crept in mullah’s understanding in Islam. It is these same mullahs who tell us to kill apostates and blasphemers, to wage jihad against polytheists, to imprison an Ahmadi for reciting kalima and more … all in the name of Islam. Surely, this is AGAINST the message of Islam.

Our onboard jamaati, mullah Urstuly, is trying to paint a very rosy picture of mullah’s Islam. He is quick to refer to ahadith, fiqah this, or fiqah that … on easy issues … but becomes silent when asked to explain issues that are somewhat more involved and realistic.

Apparently he realizes … but is too embarrassed to admit … that his mullah’s Islam is a hollow political ideology … devoid of human dignity … and totally against the message of Quran.

Rrrrright, MiaN Urstruly?

re ferozk #55:

I disagree with your assessment that the mullahs will never wield political power in Pakistan because they are unwilling to compromise. The failure of the mainstream parties(mainly due to army machinations) will eventually result in a mullahcracy in Pakistan. What happens afterwards(Algeria or Iran) is open to conjecture. The myth of the 2% mullah votebank trotted out by the likes of ROmair has already been destroyed. The myth of the relatively benign religious proclivities of the ordinary Pakistani voter is next.

re omar #58:

There will be no shortage of fun material to write about while the MMA clowns rule the roost.....Enjoy!!

later
-sac