The Truth About Karachi
Bina Shah June 13, 2003
#202 Posted by nabeel.khan on June 9, 2007 12:25:17 am
Re: # 196
Maybe the government sniffed that you had an infectious love for karachi and they want to ban everything patriotic..
Maybe the government sniffed that you had an infectious love for karachi and they want to ban everything patriotic..
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#201 Posted by TariqK on June 30, 2003 10:23:31 am
It`s not a battle between good and evil
Karachi suffers from the consequences of a collapsed infrastructure for education, health, sanitation, and transportation, and has faced an explosive population increase at the same time. This gives rise to frustrations that (due to the suppression of political process for long periods,) are expressed in ethnic and sectarian violence.
We saw the collapse of the Jamaat-i-Islami, military, police transporters, and drug dealers nexus that governed the city until the mid 1980s. Since then, the military establishment and civilian political executives have made opportunistic interventions in civil society, pitting one group against another, and the popular political forces representing Sindhis and Muhajirs have been unable to come up with a consensus on important issues. Instead they have also tried to suppress each other.
This is the context of the violence in Karachi. There is no struggle between good and evil involved here.
We may gripe at the insulting tone of Time, but at the level of appearances, the description seems credible. As the Afghans say, ``if you don`t like the way your face looks in the mirror, don`t break the mirror, break your face.``
Seriously though, what we need is the answer to the ``agency and structure`` problem in practice. There are people on the ground in Karachi, working to create alliances between the communities of working peoples and other social groups, to bring about community empowerment at the grassroots level. Success may be light years away, but that is the only route to progress.
For heaven`s sake, George W. Bush is enough! Please do not invoke ``evil`, when perfectly reasonable explanations are available. The same people can do good and bad deeds under the influence of different social conditions. There are no satans, and there are no saints either.
Best wishes,
tariq
Karachi suffers from the consequences of a collapsed infrastructure for education, health, sanitation, and transportation, and has faced an explosive population increase at the same time. This gives rise to frustrations that (due to the suppression of political process for long periods,) are expressed in ethnic and sectarian violence.
We saw the collapse of the Jamaat-i-Islami, military, police transporters, and drug dealers nexus that governed the city until the mid 1980s. Since then, the military establishment and civilian political executives have made opportunistic interventions in civil society, pitting one group against another, and the popular political forces representing Sindhis and Muhajirs have been unable to come up with a consensus on important issues. Instead they have also tried to suppress each other.
This is the context of the violence in Karachi. There is no struggle between good and evil involved here.
We may gripe at the insulting tone of Time, but at the level of appearances, the description seems credible. As the Afghans say, ``if you don`t like the way your face looks in the mirror, don`t break the mirror, break your face.``
Seriously though, what we need is the answer to the ``agency and structure`` problem in practice. There are people on the ground in Karachi, working to create alliances between the communities of working peoples and other social groups, to bring about community empowerment at the grassroots level. Success may be light years away, but that is the only route to progress.
For heaven`s sake, George W. Bush is enough! Please do not invoke ``evil`, when perfectly reasonable explanations are available. The same people can do good and bad deeds under the influence of different social conditions. There are no satans, and there are no saints either.
Best wishes,
tariq
#199 Posted by bbabu on June 23, 2003 12:28:31 am
Tipu #195
`` Keep
MY America free of germ of CoDE coolies polluting our EPA protected environment purE (pak)
literally ``
I am eligible for US citizenship. What is this ``my America`` crap ? America produces much more toxic industrial waste than India. Most of the code coolies are sitting in Bangalore making their money.
PS - do not try silly jokes by putting Pakistan and pure in the same sentence
`` Keep
MY America free of germ of CoDE coolies polluting our EPA protected environment purE (pak)
literally ``
I am eligible for US citizenship. What is this ``my America`` crap ? America produces much more toxic industrial waste than India. Most of the code coolies are sitting in Bangalore making their money.
PS - do not try silly jokes by putting Pakistan and pure in the same sentence
#198 Posted by er on June 22, 2003 10:43:31 pm
#196 bina shah...glad to see the undying spirit ...that holds the city together.... alive!
#197 Posted by bbabu on June 22, 2003 12:22:49 am
ahmadzai #193
Your statement is contrary to opinions that diplomatic relations of Israel be a bargaining chip.
#196 Posted by Bina_Shah on June 21, 2003 7:13:57 am
Thanks everyone for your comments and it`s nice to see a lively debate ensue from this article. I`m sorry I haven`t been able to respond but I was only able to sign in today from an alternate location. Computer whizzes maybe you can tell me what I``m doing wrong? I can`t sign in on my PC no matter which ISP I use and this has been a problem since Chowk`s last update. But I do keep up regularly with Chowk and am happy to see everyone interacting.
I still believe Karachi has much potential and things are not as bad as the Time article has painted it. Perhaps I`m being naive but many people who live here agree with me. We have our problems but people still keep coming to this city and many people who live abroad come back as well. There must be a reason, right?
I still believe Karachi has much potential and things are not as bad as the Time article has painted it. Perhaps I`m being naive but many people who live here agree with me. We have our problems but people still keep coming to this city and many people who live abroad come back as well. There must be a reason, right?
#195 Posted by Ahmadzai on June 21, 2003 7:13:46 am
Everybody,
On recognizing Israel:
Although Israel`s record against Palestinians has been very poor and there should be no pride and arrogance in having friendship with Israelis, I would suggest that they still need to be recognized by Pakistan on the basis that Saudi Arabia and other Gulf countries may already be deciding likewise.
Secondly, this recognition should not be done in retaliation for Palestinian leadership`s love affair with India. An average Palestinian has enough problems already and we should make the world an easy place for him.
Thirdly, Pakistanis and Jews have no historical enmity towards each other. All around the world too, Jews and Muslims go along with each other very well (in individual capacities).
On recognizing Israel:
Although Israel`s record against Palestinians has been very poor and there should be no pride and arrogance in having friendship with Israelis, I would suggest that they still need to be recognized by Pakistan on the basis that Saudi Arabia and other Gulf countries may already be deciding likewise.
Secondly, this recognition should not be done in retaliation for Palestinian leadership`s love affair with India. An average Palestinian has enough problems already and we should make the world an easy place for him.
Thirdly, Pakistanis and Jews have no historical enmity towards each other. All around the world too, Jews and Muslims go along with each other very well (in individual capacities).
#194 Posted by omar_r_quraishi on June 21, 2003 7:13:46 am
From Dawn of June 15 --
A city misjudged
By Karachian
Time magazine might think that Karachi is the place where all the terrorists and underworld dons of the globe have come to seek shelter, and some of those who live here might agree, but there are many who will differ.
Hitmen can be hired even in the rough neighbourhoods of New York like Brooklyn or the Bronx, and in cities like London, San Francisco and Amsterdam you have Russian gangsters operating as well as organized gangs called triads which take their orders from their bosses in Hong Kong. Not only can you hire a killer but you can also buy the best drugs, the best liquour and some very expensive prostitutes, usually trafficked from Eastern Europe and Russia. So perhaps Karachi is now no different from these more developed cities, though it might have a rougher under-belly for the time being.
Yes, there might be `remnants of Al Qaeda` probably regrouping here - though the city`s police chief and his boss the IG will have us think otherwise - but for most ordinary Karachiites life goes on as usual. Life is (pardon the cliche) fast and they have so many things to do than to worry about terrorists in their midst.
True, the past week was particulary violent. First there was the news of a would-be bomber who blew up his hand and a leg when he failed to properly detonate a bomb outside an amusement park and a fast food restaurant in Gulshan-i-Iqbal.
The next day`s newspapers carried ominous photographs of loads of bomb equipment found from the Korangi house of the injured bomber. Police found 12 bags of ammonium nitrate (used to make some very powerful bombs), two boxes of explosive, 12 detonators, different kinds of wire and other bomb-making material.
Six people were also arrested after the injured terrorist gave further details to the police. The alarming point to note here is that the injured bomber was an ordinary mechanic and used to work in a workshop in New Karachi. He told the police that he got his training at a jihadi camp in Mansehra in NWFP`s Hazara division (is that where the jihadi camps have been relocated to, away from neighbouring Azad Kashmir?)The same day, June 11, a former speaker of the Sindh Assembly and a one-time MQM activist was gunned down in the day in one of the city`s busiest areas. In other stories, relating to unrest and law and order, people in Keamari took to the streets and blocked a major traffic artery complaining that their homes had been getting no water for days.
The city Nazim had to come to pacify the crowd and told the people that the water shortage was affecting all neighbourhoods in the city and that the administration would at least ensure that Keamari gets its share according to the quota system.
But day-to-day life followed its usual course. Begums and aunties continue to make making their daily trips to upscale supermarkets; the America/UK returned twenty- something`s continue to have their GTs (get-togethers) and dinners; concerts and plays continue to be held; the pretentious artsy wannabes continue to throng the weekly art exhibitions on offer, and just last night while driving past the Metropole one happened to see several goras walking around as if they were tourists!
A city misjudged
By Karachian
Time magazine might think that Karachi is the place where all the terrorists and underworld dons of the globe have come to seek shelter, and some of those who live here might agree, but there are many who will differ.
Hitmen can be hired even in the rough neighbourhoods of New York like Brooklyn or the Bronx, and in cities like London, San Francisco and Amsterdam you have Russian gangsters operating as well as organized gangs called triads which take their orders from their bosses in Hong Kong. Not only can you hire a killer but you can also buy the best drugs, the best liquour and some very expensive prostitutes, usually trafficked from Eastern Europe and Russia. So perhaps Karachi is now no different from these more developed cities, though it might have a rougher under-belly for the time being.
Yes, there might be `remnants of Al Qaeda` probably regrouping here - though the city`s police chief and his boss the IG will have us think otherwise - but for most ordinary Karachiites life goes on as usual. Life is (pardon the cliche) fast and they have so many things to do than to worry about terrorists in their midst.
True, the past week was particulary violent. First there was the news of a would-be bomber who blew up his hand and a leg when he failed to properly detonate a bomb outside an amusement park and a fast food restaurant in Gulshan-i-Iqbal.
The next day`s newspapers carried ominous photographs of loads of bomb equipment found from the Korangi house of the injured bomber. Police found 12 bags of ammonium nitrate (used to make some very powerful bombs), two boxes of explosive, 12 detonators, different kinds of wire and other bomb-making material.
Six people were also arrested after the injured terrorist gave further details to the police. The alarming point to note here is that the injured bomber was an ordinary mechanic and used to work in a workshop in New Karachi. He told the police that he got his training at a jihadi camp in Mansehra in NWFP`s Hazara division (is that where the jihadi camps have been relocated to, away from neighbouring Azad Kashmir?)The same day, June 11, a former speaker of the Sindh Assembly and a one-time MQM activist was gunned down in the day in one of the city`s busiest areas. In other stories, relating to unrest and law and order, people in Keamari took to the streets and blocked a major traffic artery complaining that their homes had been getting no water for days.
The city Nazim had to come to pacify the crowd and told the people that the water shortage was affecting all neighbourhoods in the city and that the administration would at least ensure that Keamari gets its share according to the quota system.
But day-to-day life followed its usual course. Begums and aunties continue to make making their daily trips to upscale supermarkets; the America/UK returned twenty- something`s continue to have their GTs (get-togethers) and dinners; concerts and plays continue to be held; the pretentious artsy wannabes continue to throng the weekly art exhibitions on offer, and just last night while driving past the Metropole one happened to see several goras walking around as if they were tourists!
#193 Posted by Tipu on June 21, 2003 7:13:46 am
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#192 Posted by rsridhar on June 20, 2003 9:58:07 pm
re: Indo-Israeli alliance
Here is Rajeev Srinivasan`s take on the evolving friendship between Israel and India.
http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=311634
Sridhar
Here is Rajeev Srinivasan`s take on the evolving friendship between Israel and India.
http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=311634
Sridhar
#191 Posted by arjun_m on June 20, 2003 11:41:57 am
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#190 Posted by tahmed32 on June 20, 2003 10:39:09 am
arjun #188 i dont think my post #189 is very clear, since i discuss a couple of separate issues in the post i referred you to. So, just to be clear, my point is NOT what you are making it out to be. I dont mind discussing responses to what i wrote, and even changing my view if i am convinced by the argument. However, I do not intend to start defending points i never made.
#189 Posted by tahmed32 on June 20, 2003 9:43:30 am
arjun ``your point is what?``
please see my post #187 item b. to alephnull.
please see my post #187 item b. to alephnull.
#188 Posted by arjun_m on June 20, 2003 8:43:35 am
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#187 Posted by tahmed32 on June 20, 2003 8:25:18 am
Alephnull #181
a. You really dont indicate that I am outside the ballpark in quoting the 700,000 figure - i.e. 400,000 per Jane`s estimate plus an indetermined number of troops not tasked with anti-terrorism duties. Also, as I said when quoting this figure, the significant thing is not som much the exact number anyway, but the fact that a large army in kashmir over several years in kashmir has not been able to put an end to the insurgency.
b. On the ``questionable content`` of my original post, that is not true: You keep ignoring the content, which was simply to say that the WSJ article was saying the opposite of what rsridhar was saying. This can be easily verified by reviewing rsridhar`s post. I have yet to see one Indian poster in the subsequent ``avalanche of posts`` address the point I made. As for the ``characteristic tenor`` of my posts, I would appreciate your cutting and pasting anything specific I wrote that you find offensive and I will be glad to re-consider if necessary what I said. I normally try to avoid engaging in discussions with abusive posters, although once in a while I admit to weakening and letting them have a taste of their own medicine with premium. With posters who are friendly and courteous, I respond in the same manner. I would not have stayed on chowk for so long if I did not consider most posters to be decent and reasonable most of the time.
Alephnull #180 What I had in mind was the fact that the Indian government`s well known stand about kashmir being an ``integral part of India`` and ignoring the origins of the problem which clearly make Kashmir an unresolved issue from 1947. The focus of the Indian governments since 1947 has been to grab land where it could, using any argument it found convenient. I agree with you 100% that pakistan should not be doing anything to cause law and order within indian kashmir. The loss in lives is not worth the significance of what is essentially a territorial dispute.
AlephNull #179 I am glad that you dont see kashmir as a black and white issue, but as the complex situation it is. Therefore my saying that you see it as being 100% pakistan`s fault is not an accurate summarization of your views. Its just that I did not get a hint of this in your earlier post and that is what I was responding to. The situation is indeed very complex, and rendered even more difficult with the involvement of religious extremists from pakistan in kashmir. Surely, I for one would rather see Saira Bano rolling in the snow in kashmir (yes, I saw a bit of ``junglee`` on Turner Classics channel last night) than a bunch of murderous mullahs roaming around in their rambo outfits.
a. You really dont indicate that I am outside the ballpark in quoting the 700,000 figure - i.e. 400,000 per Jane`s estimate plus an indetermined number of troops not tasked with anti-terrorism duties. Also, as I said when quoting this figure, the significant thing is not som much the exact number anyway, but the fact that a large army in kashmir over several years in kashmir has not been able to put an end to the insurgency.
b. On the ``questionable content`` of my original post, that is not true: You keep ignoring the content, which was simply to say that the WSJ article was saying the opposite of what rsridhar was saying. This can be easily verified by reviewing rsridhar`s post. I have yet to see one Indian poster in the subsequent ``avalanche of posts`` address the point I made. As for the ``characteristic tenor`` of my posts, I would appreciate your cutting and pasting anything specific I wrote that you find offensive and I will be glad to re-consider if necessary what I said. I normally try to avoid engaging in discussions with abusive posters, although once in a while I admit to weakening and letting them have a taste of their own medicine with premium. With posters who are friendly and courteous, I respond in the same manner. I would not have stayed on chowk for so long if I did not consider most posters to be decent and reasonable most of the time.
Alephnull #180 What I had in mind was the fact that the Indian government`s well known stand about kashmir being an ``integral part of India`` and ignoring the origins of the problem which clearly make Kashmir an unresolved issue from 1947. The focus of the Indian governments since 1947 has been to grab land where it could, using any argument it found convenient. I agree with you 100% that pakistan should not be doing anything to cause law and order within indian kashmir. The loss in lives is not worth the significance of what is essentially a territorial dispute.
AlephNull #179 I am glad that you dont see kashmir as a black and white issue, but as the complex situation it is. Therefore my saying that you see it as being 100% pakistan`s fault is not an accurate summarization of your views. Its just that I did not get a hint of this in your earlier post and that is what I was responding to. The situation is indeed very complex, and rendered even more difficult with the involvement of religious extremists from pakistan in kashmir. Surely, I for one would rather see Saira Bano rolling in the snow in kashmir (yes, I saw a bit of ``junglee`` on Turner Classics channel last night) than a bunch of murderous mullahs roaming around in their rambo outfits.
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