A Movement in Religious Nationalism: Jami’at-ul-Ulama-i-Hind

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Sorry, if I have hurt your ego! I agree, you are the most scholarly, the most knowldgeble and the most ``authentic`` Gnostic ever to be born on this earth.
Happy!!!

#143 by Naqshbandi on November 22, 2003 11:19am PT
The ``Real`` Sufi Impersonants were the followers of Satan with an eye towards the temporal power- those who ``played`` in the courts of moguls.

Sufism is essentially a Path to reach a gnosis of Allah following the teachings of Prophet Muhammad al Mustafa sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam based on the Shariat. Every single Sufi has defined it and practised it as such.

As for Inayat Khan--I have heard of him and do not know enough about him so I will not say anything in case he was one of Allah`s walis. Allahu alam. But I will say this: no real Sufi Shaykh I know or know of has ever mentioned him to me at all either in a positive or negative sense. He only seems to be popular amongst a certain group of people--mostly non- Muslims who have a desire for a new age spirituality.

Dear Ballu Khan,

Generally agree with your sentiments... however... the fact remains that Sufies in large number sided with the league at partition .... and the allies of the Congress were clearly the followers of Aurangzeb.... so this constant attempt to always straitjacket pakistan into this bigoted version of Islam is not right.

Here is what Maulana Madni, the great champion of `composite nationalism ` and ally of the Congress had to say about Aurangzeb:

``If Dara (Shikoh) had triumphed, Muslims would have stayed in India but not Islam. Since Aurangzeb triumphed, both Muslims and Islam were here to stay`` (Muslim Politics in India - Hamid Dalwai, 1969, page 71). ``According to Maulana, the faith Dara followed was not genuine Islam because Dara wanted to tolerate Hindus. He did not insist on the rule of the Shariat. From the above views of Maulana it should be clear what kind of Islam a majority of ``Nationalist Muslims` subscribed to and what in the final analysis, their great goals were`` (ibid). For Madani ``all non-Muslims are the enemies of Islam and Muslims`` ( Muslim Nationhood in India - Safia Amir, 2000, page 179). ``

So you see it is not always helpful to compartmentalize according to your own preferences... that is historical and intellectual dishonesty.

-YLH

#138 by Naqshbandi on November 18, 2003 3:57pm PT


From what I can gather is that your arrogance about sufism shows your ignorance about sufism- which is about simplicity par-excellence.
I have seen enough of sufi impersonants to see that you may have memorized all the teachings of Shaykh Ahmad Sirhindi and Shah Wali Allah, but you have NO ``understanding`` of sufism.
(I have been initiated into the clan of Pir-O-Murshid Hazrat Inayat Khan (may Allah be pleased upon him))
So I would also not prefer to discuss the subject sufism with you at the this juncture of your life>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

#139 by AnOrdinaryHindu on November 18, 2003 9:33pm PT
Please do not get impressed by Naqshabandis reading of the sufi history- the fact is that there were OFFICIAL sufi impersonators attached with all the regimes in the moghul days- there were also numerous others who preferred to practice solitude away from the power brokers - while others talked about Khalwat dar anjuman and mixed with the power brokers gleefully. So forget about what he has to say- listen to others as well.
You must go through the information provided on sufism on this site:--
http://www.uga.edu/islam/Sufism.html

Naqshbandi

Thanks for the information on Sufis.

Ballu,

actually I love the Sufis...belong to a Sufi order myself alhamdulillah....and both Shaykh Ahmad Sirhindi and Shah Wali Allah (may Allah be pleased with them both) were Sufis--and accepted as such by all Sufis--of the first rank.

Shows how much you know about Islam...or about India actually...

**
Mahmud conquered lands but the hearts were conquered by the pirs indeed like Khawaja Muinnudin Chishti of Ajmer Sharif who converted 9 lacs of Hindus to Islam! Both are needed and complimentary. Even Mahmud of Ghazna had Sufi pirs of the Naqshbandi order in his entourage to pray for him. Might have been Hazrat Khawaja Abul Hassan al Kharqani quds sirruhu but not sure who finally prayed for victory for the Sultan and whose prayer was granted. Many of the Sufis themselves took part in jihad.

**
So my advice to you is read books by non-hindutvas first before talking to me about Islam/Sufism or anything.

Ref pmishra2 #135

[There is a difference between the state providing infra-structure and the permit raj of the 60`s and 70`s. What Nehru had to do in the 50`s was one thing.

But by the mid-60`s a lot of basic infra-structure was in place. Yet things didnt change. I still recall a major shoe manufacturer in Calcutta telling me that he would have to go to Delhi to ``negotiate`` his shoe quota in the 70s. In other words, he would have pay some official to allow him to make so-many-shoes !!! Otherwise, if he made too many he was breaking the law. It was lunacy of the highest order.]

The lunacy persists.

I was in a meeting between a VP-Asia of Airfone and a director of RPG Cellular in -- get this -- 2001. (Airfone was an early investor in RPG Cellular and hence the meeting). The RPG guy was bemoaning the fact that when RPG asked for an increase in the number of cell phones, the Central Government granted an increase of 10,000 phones. The size of a cellular exchange is 20,000 lines; RPG ordered a 10,000 line exchange from Nokia; it being a special order wasn`t available for 6 months and cost the same as the standard 20,000 line exchange. This is the kind of madness that was imposed on Indian industries by Congress and its central planning.

Similarly, Hindustan Earthmovers (a Birla company) was licensed to produce 320 pieces of equipment a year -- of 47 different kinds of bulldozers, ditchdiggers, etc.! Caterpillar licensed them the technology and production processes. The company sold all its earthmovers in September of every year as the various PWDs and Border Roads Organization took delivery before they lost the fiscal year`s funding. So, the company manufactured the equipment throughout the year, stored them till September, wasting money on inventory carrying costs. As to 47 different types, Caterpillar was absolutely amazed what the idiots in India were doing. Today, Caterpillar has bought out Hindustan Earthmovers and is the owner of the company. So much for developing Indian technology. By the way, Birla got the land free from the government for the factory on the basis they were bringing in a new factory -- Caterpillar paid zilch to either the Government or Birla for the land!

The babus of various ministries won`t let Arun Shourie get away with privatizing or disinvestment. Even if Arun Shourie succeeds, they will not repeal the earlier license-quota raj because that is where the power is.

#116 by Naqshbandi on November 16, 2003 10:37am PT

typical of fanatic TNT and the PURISTS in the Pure land of faithfuls.
Akbar was the moghul ruler most revered by the hindus- and his popularity was hated by the mullahs because he used to listen to the hindus and tried to break the monopoly of the mullahs like naqshbandi on matters of faith.
The heroes of Pakistani muslim remain the jehadis like Mahmud Ghaznavi but most of the Indian muslims look towards the sufi peers because it was the sufi peers who brought the maximum of hindus into the muslim faith through their exemplary faith. The sword of ghazanavis only brought disgruntled people who converted only to save their lives.


````......They are certainly my heroes and also Allama Iqbal`s heroes as he has praised them in his poetry and his books......Only so Kemalists, atheists, agnostics, modernists, and other such folk will not consider these above 3 names as heroes for the Muslims. Akbar is and was hated by all traditional Muslims of Indo-Pak. In fact I am sure a vast majority of Muslims in India and Pakistan will hate him to this day...........``

Infact Aurengzeb is considered to be a fanatic who did little in the advancement of the good of the poor except for what his mullahs advised him to.

``....... real Islam in Hindustan would have been swallowed up by Hinduism under the guise of Unity...and Pakistan would never have come into being...``

He is right, the REAL Islam that has been monopolized by TNTs like him would never have been seen in the Purest land on this earth....

Sick!!!!

#134 Manto

There is a difference between the state providing infra-structure and the permit raj of the 60`s and 70`s. What Nehru had to do in the 50`s was one thing.

But by the mid-60`s a lot of basic infra-structure was in place. Yet things didnt change. I still recall a major shoe manufacturer in Calcutta telling me that he would have to go to Delhi to ``negotiate`` his shoe quota in the 70s. In other words, he would have pay some official to allow him to make so-many-shoes !!! Otherwise, if he made too many he was breaking the law. It was lunacy of the highest order.

p-mishra,

Well put.

On another note... why does there seem to be a consensus that India will only move forward by shunning Nehruvian socialism... don`t you agree that nehruvian socialism had a lot to do with creating that base from which India has taken off?

-YLH