India Pakistan Friendship, Why Now?

Jihadic classification,

There was a time when tahmed and romair expounded the jihadic classification scheme. according to this there are the taliban concentrating on afghansiatan, the sectariands killing the shias and the jihadis of kashmir. According to this so called pak experts, talking from having lived in kashmir, rejected my general purpose killer jihadi concept. now suddenly tyhere are no calssifications, they are all terrorists and surprise surprise, it is the kashmir variety thyat tried to kill mushy.

It is time that pakistanis accept the fact that jihad in pakistan is simply a more virulant strain of TNT that created pakistan. With out denouncing TNT and the men behind it, pakistan will never be able to get out of the morass. It is time that pakistanis say openly that they can live with other religiounists, declasre that jihad is not killing of kafirs.

Time that at least on chowk the pakistanis honour a non-muslim, write an artcile on abdus salam. Peace is an outocme of shared values, not like an LFO imposed by a dictator. Mushy like his guru, zia is only collecting US dollars in the name of jihadis, this time for killing them

Samjohta express travels to India. Yee haa. More good things are yet to come. Long live both India & Pakistan and love from me.

nakhok #80 Ayaz Amir reminds me of Romair for the following reason: He makes arbitrary pronouncements with such great surety. But without providing any evidence to back his pronouncements. And both are ex-military officers who left the army at relatively junior ranks.

Hmmmmm.....do i notice a pattern here??

Yes, why now? Why not in 1999? Why not in the morrow of 9/11? Here`s Ayaz Amir`s take on that question:

http://www.dawn.com/weekly/ayaz/ayaz.htm

DAWN, Karachi, Pakistan
09 January 2004 Friday 16 Ziqa`ad 1424

Joyride of the victors
By Ayaz Amir

..... what Pakistan has agreed is to bid a last farewell to jihad in Kashmir: the final curtains drawn on the blood and iron of 15 years of history.

Any doubts on this score should disappear with these words from the Joint Statement: ``Prime Minister (Atal Behari) Vajpayee said that in order to take forward and sustain the dialogue process, violence, hostility and terrorism must be prevented. President (Pervez) Musharraf reassured Prime Minister Vajpayee that he will not permit any territory under Pakistan`s control to be used to support terrorism in any manner.`` .....

..... For 15 years we defined the uprising in occupied Kashmir as an indigenous freedom struggle. Now a Pakistani ruler has put that struggle squarely in the locker of terrorism. We should forgive the Kashmiris if they feel a bit like the Taliban whom we once supported and then threw to the wolves. If they utter the dread word ``sellout``, what do we say? .....

..... Coming to the all-important question of whether a peaceful relationship with India is good for Pakistan, a thousand times, yes. Was jihad in Kashmir a sustainable and sensible policy? A thousand times, no. Then isn`t Gen Musharraf on the right course, doing the right thing?

He is. The only thing is he could have embarked on this journey much sooner and with less loss of face for Pakistan. What Pakistan has undergone under his stewardship is the ordeal of the hundred onions: getting the worst of all worlds and doing the right thing not under own steam but under external pressure. The conclusions he has now been forced to draw should have been drawn voluntarily soon after September 11, without wasting the intervening two years in puerile posturing.

Pakistan was better placed to talk to India in February 1999 when Vajpayee made his bus trip to Lahore. Although jihadi activity in occupied Kashmir was going on, in the Lahore Declaration signed by Vajpayee and Nawaz Sharif, Pakistan came under no pressure to make any unilateral commitment about not supporting terrorism. What was agreed to in Lahore could have been the basis of a fresh start, but the mood generated then was soon destroyed by Kargil.

Agra was an opportunity to bury Kargil and lay the basis for another start. After all, to overcome the distrust of Kargil it was in Pakistan`s interest to go the extra mile to win some kind of agreement for the resumption of a dialogue. But Agra was sacrificed to our grandstanding on Kashmir.

In the wake of September 11, Musharraf and his generals thought that by allying themselves with the Americans they were outsmarting India and protecting Kashmir policy (aka jihad). They stood disabused of this notion when following the terrorist attack on the Indian parliament in December 2001 America put pressure on Pakistan to end jihad in Kashmir.

Appearing on television in January 2002, Musharraf vowed to curb religious extremism. But the Americans weren`t satisfied and through such interlocutors as Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage kept up the pressure.

In June Musharraf had to make another speech condemning religious extremism. But even then indications suggested that the military government thought it could have it both ways: ride with the Americans and run with the jihadis.

By 2003 this policy had become unsustainable. It was making no one happy: not the Americans, not the Indians, not the jihadis. We had boxed ourselves into a corner and there seemed to be no way out. When Vajpayee announced his peace initiative in Srinagar on April 18, more a statement of intent than anything concrete, Pakistan responded with an almost audible sigh of relief. .....

..... Pakistan should have been for peace with India long ago. Musharraf, instead of being gung-ho about India when he seized power, should have tried to repair the relationship damaged because of his very own baby, Kargil. But he was riding a high horse then and sporting a tough look. Now of course from supping with the lions we have come down to drinking tepid water with the goats. And the smile on Indian faces is wider than it has ever been this side of 1971.

We have seen our military heroes make war. We have now seen them make peace. It is a moot point what is more petrifying: their talent for war or their peace strategy? .....

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Hey #76 more power to you. Keep up the good work. We need more people like yourself.

nhk

``I value your perceptions & views. Similarly, Gajjubania from the other side has similar strongish views. ``

There is a gap in your perception here. These guys are apples and oranges.

#75 nazarhayatkhan

So you are comparing me to Gujjubania??? For your information, unlike him, I hate NO ONE. Not Hindus, not Jews, not Christians, not Americans, not Indians. NO ONE. I believe in hatred for none, and, if not love, at least RESPECT for ALL. And, unlike you, that means grappling with reality and recognizing human failings. Failings that the whole of humanity shares, not just Indians, but also Muslims and Pakistanis. But I forget, everything is just so SIMPLE and BEAUTIFUL in Liberal La La Land, isn`t it?

Don`t forget to send us a postcard. ROTFLMAO!!!!

Dionysus

I value your perceptions & views. Similarly, Gajjubania from the other side has similar strongish views.

May be you can initiate a dialouge process with each other & reach an amicable solution to the satisfaction of both.

On Chowk, you will mostly find people in the hazy Gray Shade.

ALL,

This is WHY?

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/421186.cms

Title of this Article - ``India Pakistan Friendship Why Now? ``

One of the reasons, Baniya and Yankees getting closer.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/01/12/us.india.cooperation/index.html

dionysus #69 dont try to get chummy with the teacher, and do the homework assignment you were given (as i recall, there is another assignment due a couple of days ago).

PS: you will no doubt get headaches in the beginning when you try to do your assignments. This is normal and to be expected when you first start trying to use your brain. Keep up your assignments, and you will be ready to move out of the ``dumberer`` class.

stuka #66 On 1., my point was not that an individual was seeking to enrich himself through the opening up of trade - after all, that is the purpose behind peace and prosperity (that individuals enrich themselves thru economic activity). My point was, that it is improper for a politician to enrich himself in this direct fashion from the results of his foreign policy.

On your question on why the consensus within pakistan now rather than back then: I think there are a number of factors: probably the most important has to do with 9/11 and the 180 degree turn our military geniuses made once they realized that the dumbass mullahs they had looked upon to fight a (for them) ``cost-free`` proxy war in kashmir had finally bitten off more than they could chew when they killed 3000 people on 9/11. Last year`s near-nuclear was was I think sobering also for both sides. And i think ultimately one must credit both musharaff and vajpayee - they are probably the smartest two leaders we have had in south asia since nehru.

On your proposing to compare the lahore and islamabad declarations, the comparison would certainly be interesting. Here is the key part of the lahore declaration that i just googled:

(Both sides):

- shall intensify their efforts to resolve all issues, including the issue of Jammu and Kashmir.

- shall refrain from intervention and interference in each other`s internal affairs.

- shall intensify their composite and integrated dialogue process for an early and positive outcome of the agreed bilateral agenda.

- shall take immediate steps for reducing the risk of accidental or unauthorized use of nuclear weapons and discuss concepts and doctrines with a view to elaborating measures for confidence building in the nuclear and conventional fields, aimed at prevention of conflict.

- reaffirm their commitment to the goals and objectives of SAARC and to concert their efforts towards the realization of the SAARC vision for the year 2000 and beyond with a view to promoting the welfare of the peoples of South Asia and to improve their quality of life through accelerated economic growth, social progress and cultural development.

- reaffirm their condemnation of terrorism in all its forms and manifestations and their determination to combat this menace.

- shall promote and protect all human rights and fundamental freedoms.

#67 stuka, I will answer your question tommorro, bro.

#68 tahmed, old bean, what`s the weather like in LA LA Land today? Fine, I hope. And Oh, do give my regards to nazarhayatkhan when you see him. Everything`s just so PERFECT and BEAUTIFUL where you too are. I`m glad I`M not there, though. ROTFLMAO!!!

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dionysus #65 You cross-posted this dumb post of yours on another board as well. I call your post dumb advisedly: It is in fact ``dumberer`` than plain dumb: All you have done in this post is to write up your own stuff, attribute it to me, then advise me that i am insane. In order to graduate from ``dumberer`` to the next higher class (i.e. plain ``dumb``), do as follows in future: Cut and paste what I have written, then comment on it. Dont comment on your own write-ups. As i said on the other posts, i have had the pleasure of the acquaitance of flies and tadpoles with a higher IQ than you have demonstrated so far.


BTW: you write ``ROTFLMAO``. Not being as ``with it`` as you are, I googled and found the online dictionary to get the full meaning of ROTFLMAO, which is as follows:

``Acronym for `Rolling On The Floor Laughing My Ass Off`. Used by jackasses who think they are too cool to simply use LOL (`Laughing Out Loud`) or that by using it, it signifies that they are into `pop culture.` ``

Therefore, perhaps you are smarter than I thought: that is, since you use this phrase you have proved that you can be as smart as a jackass, IF you try really hard and pick up hip acronyms from the internet. (``Jackass`` is of course a notch above ``dumb`` and two notches above ``dumberer``).