Abrar Akbar June 7, 2004
#60 Posted by barachota on July 9, 2004 5:56:00 pm
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#59 Posted by barachota on July 9, 2004 5:55:59 pm
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#58 Posted by DawgUSA on July 2, 2004 10:51:07 am
If some one thinks that MR PREZ MURRAY (This is how our disrespected CEO of Pakistan is called by the most stupid person on the face of this world, yes! you guessed it right Mr George Herbert Walker Bush, or in short ``CHOTTA BUSH``) is a honest person then let me give you this news, on 21 June 2003 I was flying to USA from Lahore. I was told that Mr Prez Murray will be joining us at our stop over in London to continue to USA. After the flight took off from London our pilot announced that our flight will be going to Boston first, as Mr P Murray will disembark there. At this point I remembered that Mr Murrays son lives in Boston and has some kind of business there, Mr Murray used the aircraft of Pakistan`s national carier as his personal jet, costing PIA atleast $100,000 in added costs of fuel and landing charges cause all airports in USA are privately owned and they charge heavy fee for a non regular flight to land there. If PM is so honest and dedicated to Pakistan then why did he use the PIA plane for his private use. You can easily imagine how honesy this person is.
#57 Posted by hamzan on June 12, 2004 1:02:10 pm
Ref: Romair & by now his standard mantra
Look, is there any logic, any sense here to come with the same crap he has already shoved down our throats countless times before? The same money, salaries etc., bakwas. There must be good reasons that most, if not all of his answers revolve around money; salaries, and civil-military disparity of fiscal gains, if there are any. He seems to be obsessed with proving/refuting something.
My expert psychoanalysis is as follows.
Romair is basically not as an idiot as many people over here seem to believe. On the contrary, I would assert, he is quite a good person at heart but suffers of severe guilty consciousness. And in order to soothe his spiritual qualms he keeps on chanting his classical mantra of poor salaries in the forces on one hand and his enormous success in the Silicon Valley on the other.
There must be some familial grounds too, but I abhor to get that personal so no comments in that regard. Therefore, let me elucidate the phenomenon by explaining only the most relevant background.
He joined PAF after his matriculation at the age of 16-17. Pakistan, despite being one of the poorest countries on the face of earth provided him every conceivable facility and luxury. Imagine, at the age of 16-17 when millions of his age fellows were roaming around without any prospect for future he was given 400 – 500 PRs as pocket money (to start with in early 80s) … yeah only to study. Not only that he was provided with free mess, world-class education, very decent sports facilities, extremely good medical care – all gratis, and batman when he was just a shitty cadet. Even every sort of complete clothing sets (from uniform, sportswear, mufti to shalwar kameez) was given to him without charging him and his family a penny. On top of all this, guaranteed job after graduation with not-so-bad packet of perks and privileges.
Gradually, he graduated with a degree in avionics. Then, one day he “realised” that oh, see [very few] people in the civil with compatible academic qualifications are getting more than what he received at the end of month. Which might not be full truth – that’s another story. He started panga-bazi, got released from the forces, moved to the US. With some luck succeeded in making a few bucks.
Now, he knows very well that there are not many very plausible justifications for his code of conduct. He knows very well that he got everything possible, rather much more than what it affords, out of that poor country and left it the very moment he got a better chance. He feels guilty. Possibly very guilty. Somewhere deep inside him someone keeps on reminding him that Mr, aapis kee baat hai, you are a selfish $ucker.
He needs something to get rid of those disturbing thoughts. Some alibis. To do that he keeps on chanting that military officers are not well paid. Their civilian counterparts are better off. He is a super genius – his enormous successes are a proof that Pakistan was too small, too backward for him. Though most of his replies and comments [try to] derive authority by the virtue of his past in the forces. A decade that PAF served him (yes PAF served him) is by all likelihood the cornerstone for all of his grossly inflated achievements.
Take his whining out and think for a while what reasons there are for his betrayal. Keep in mind he joined PAF well aware of their salary packages. He exploited it in every imaginable manner. Left it the very day he could stand on his feet. He never takes into consideration the amount, the efforts, put in and zalalat endured by civilians from Matric (Secondary School) to graduation – normally 7 – 9 years at least -- and then finding some decent job.
Even if there were exactly same salaries, using romair’s formulas, I bet he would have been saying now: until and unless Pakistanis don’t get same amount of money in Pakistan what they can easily get in Saudi Arabia or North America or Somalia, they will keep on leaving the country.
I remember watching an American film, where to a general, betrayal was a far worse crime than a rape. So friends, it is romair’s betrayal that makes him keep on submitting all that nonsense. If he doesn’t do that, he has to admit that he is a namak-haram a$$hole. Not an easy job to confess, I guess. Right!?
Everyone is fully and legitimately entitled to social, economic and intellectual promotion. I definitely don’t want to deny him that fundamental right. This note is only meant to offer him a different set of lenses.
To be noted I post this analysis of mine only in response to recycling of romair’s trademark rubbish – not when he sticks to the point. There is no other way to keep him on track.
Look, is there any logic, any sense here to come with the same crap he has already shoved down our throats countless times before? The same money, salaries etc., bakwas. There must be good reasons that most, if not all of his answers revolve around money; salaries, and civil-military disparity of fiscal gains, if there are any. He seems to be obsessed with proving/refuting something.
My expert psychoanalysis is as follows.
Romair is basically not as an idiot as many people over here seem to believe. On the contrary, I would assert, he is quite a good person at heart but suffers of severe guilty consciousness. And in order to soothe his spiritual qualms he keeps on chanting his classical mantra of poor salaries in the forces on one hand and his enormous success in the Silicon Valley on the other.
There must be some familial grounds too, but I abhor to get that personal so no comments in that regard. Therefore, let me elucidate the phenomenon by explaining only the most relevant background.
He joined PAF after his matriculation at the age of 16-17. Pakistan, despite being one of the poorest countries on the face of earth provided him every conceivable facility and luxury. Imagine, at the age of 16-17 when millions of his age fellows were roaming around without any prospect for future he was given 400 – 500 PRs as pocket money (to start with in early 80s) … yeah only to study. Not only that he was provided with free mess, world-class education, very decent sports facilities, extremely good medical care – all gratis, and batman when he was just a shitty cadet. Even every sort of complete clothing sets (from uniform, sportswear, mufti to shalwar kameez) was given to him without charging him and his family a penny. On top of all this, guaranteed job after graduation with not-so-bad packet of perks and privileges.
Gradually, he graduated with a degree in avionics. Then, one day he “realised” that oh, see [very few] people in the civil with compatible academic qualifications are getting more than what he received at the end of month. Which might not be full truth – that’s another story. He started panga-bazi, got released from the forces, moved to the US. With some luck succeeded in making a few bucks.
Now, he knows very well that there are not many very plausible justifications for his code of conduct. He knows very well that he got everything possible, rather much more than what it affords, out of that poor country and left it the very moment he got a better chance. He feels guilty. Possibly very guilty. Somewhere deep inside him someone keeps on reminding him that Mr, aapis kee baat hai, you are a selfish $ucker.
He needs something to get rid of those disturbing thoughts. Some alibis. To do that he keeps on chanting that military officers are not well paid. Their civilian counterparts are better off. He is a super genius – his enormous successes are a proof that Pakistan was too small, too backward for him. Though most of his replies and comments [try to] derive authority by the virtue of his past in the forces. A decade that PAF served him (yes PAF served him) is by all likelihood the cornerstone for all of his grossly inflated achievements.
Take his whining out and think for a while what reasons there are for his betrayal. Keep in mind he joined PAF well aware of their salary packages. He exploited it in every imaginable manner. Left it the very day he could stand on his feet. He never takes into consideration the amount, the efforts, put in and zalalat endured by civilians from Matric (Secondary School) to graduation – normally 7 – 9 years at least -- and then finding some decent job.
Even if there were exactly same salaries, using romair’s formulas, I bet he would have been saying now: until and unless Pakistanis don’t get same amount of money in Pakistan what they can easily get in Saudi Arabia or North America or Somalia, they will keep on leaving the country.
I remember watching an American film, where to a general, betrayal was a far worse crime than a rape. So friends, it is romair’s betrayal that makes him keep on submitting all that nonsense. If he doesn’t do that, he has to admit that he is a namak-haram a$$hole. Not an easy job to confess, I guess. Right!?
Everyone is fully and legitimately entitled to social, economic and intellectual promotion. I definitely don’t want to deny him that fundamental right. This note is only meant to offer him a different set of lenses.
To be noted I post this analysis of mine only in response to recycling of romair’s trademark rubbish – not when he sticks to the point. There is no other way to keep him on track.
#56 Posted by discoverer on June 12, 2004 7:15:56 am
ALL YOU MUMMY,DADDY PEOPLE SHOULD UNDERSTAND THAT musharraf is a bad ss of america, he`s the real dajjal. Remember what happen when shabaz came and he was deported with the whole plan full of commandos, T.V, media such as GEO and ARY was repeatedly ask to stop their correspondence just because the was with the truth. what kind of democracy is this, he`s a dick Tator not a president?
#55 Posted by AlephNull on June 11, 2004 7:42:41 pm
Romair #54
{{Pakistan`s economic indicators have come out extremely strong for this year:
``GDP growth of 6.4% surpasses target
* Manufacturing sector grows 13.4%
* Agriculture growth slack at 2.6%
* Per capita income up 12% to US$652}}
See the following for an explanation of the finagled figures:
4.2pc reduction in poverty, claims Economic Survey
``One key factor that helped derive such astounding set of numbers is the size of Gross Domestic Product (GDP) at Rs 5,480 billion, or $95 billion, after changing the base year from 1980-81 to 1999-2000.
As a result, all statistics calculated in relation to GDP have yielded 20 per cent better ratios straightaway.``
{{Pakistan`s economic indicators have come out extremely strong for this year:
``GDP growth of 6.4% surpasses target
* Manufacturing sector grows 13.4%
* Agriculture growth slack at 2.6%
* Per capita income up 12% to US$652}}
See the following for an explanation of the finagled figures:
4.2pc reduction in poverty, claims Economic Survey
``One key factor that helped derive such astounding set of numbers is the size of Gross Domestic Product (GDP) at Rs 5,480 billion, or $95 billion, after changing the base year from 1980-81 to 1999-2000.
As a result, all statistics calculated in relation to GDP have yielded 20 per cent better ratios straightaway.``
#54 Posted by Romair on June 11, 2004 5:50:34 pm
Pakistan`s economic indicators have come out extremely strong for this year:
``GDP growth of 6.4% surpasses target
* Manufacturing sector grows 13.4%
* Agriculture growth slack at 2.6%
* Per capita income up 12% to US$652
* Investment rises to 18.1% of GDP
* Inflation jumps to 3.9%
* Govt borrowing exceeds target
* Fiscal deficit at 3.3% of GDP
* Balance of payments stays strong
* FDI recorded at US$760m``
(www.dailytimes.com.pk)
Shaukut Aziz and his team deserve a lot of credit. Just goes to show what can be accomplished if honest compotent people with international credibility, from the private sector, are put into positions of importance, and are allowed the space and authority to operate, without interference.
I have been saying for a long time that Shaukut Aziz, Ishrat Hussain, Hafeez Shiekh etc. are the people to watch, and that they will deliver. They have delivered. In four years, Pakistan`s economic growth rate has doubled, from 3.2 to 6.4%.
Like a good Wall Street banker, Shaukut Aziz always understates targets and over-delivers. This year was supposed to be 5.3%. It is 6.4%. And this is without any foreign investment. And he is targeting 8% in three years. He has hit or exceeded almost every target so far.
People benefit from economic growth, regardless of dictatorships or democracy. And everyone always gives economic growth top preference. That is why so many Pakistanis migrate to USA, and give up their rights to vote in Pakistan. If Shaukut Aziz hits his targets, Pakistan should be alright. And if the money is distributed to the poorest levels. Employed people don`t get involved in violence. Pakistan seems to have learnt from the Indian elections, and this year`s budget has a lot allocated to farmers.
In the end, Musharraf will be judged by one and only one thing. Not by his democratic credentials. Not by his liberlism or conservatism. Not by Kashmir. Nor by war against or for terrorism. Nor by dealings with India.
He will be judged by how many jobs he can provide, i.e. economic growth and its equitable distribution. If he can continue to do that, for the next four years or so, all his sins will be forgiven by the average Pakistanis.
If he cannot, then it won`t matter how much enlightened moderation he introduces. It will only appeal to the rich (i.e. Chowk) crowd. Everyone else just wants jobs. All surveys indicate that. After all, all of us Indians and Pakistan did not migrate out of our countries, to get a chance to vote. We gave up our chance to make more money..............
``GDP growth of 6.4% surpasses target
* Manufacturing sector grows 13.4%
* Agriculture growth slack at 2.6%
* Per capita income up 12% to US$652
* Investment rises to 18.1% of GDP
* Inflation jumps to 3.9%
* Govt borrowing exceeds target
* Fiscal deficit at 3.3% of GDP
* Balance of payments stays strong
* FDI recorded at US$760m``
(www.dailytimes.com.pk)
Shaukut Aziz and his team deserve a lot of credit. Just goes to show what can be accomplished if honest compotent people with international credibility, from the private sector, are put into positions of importance, and are allowed the space and authority to operate, without interference.
I have been saying for a long time that Shaukut Aziz, Ishrat Hussain, Hafeez Shiekh etc. are the people to watch, and that they will deliver. They have delivered. In four years, Pakistan`s economic growth rate has doubled, from 3.2 to 6.4%.
Like a good Wall Street banker, Shaukut Aziz always understates targets and over-delivers. This year was supposed to be 5.3%. It is 6.4%. And this is without any foreign investment. And he is targeting 8% in three years. He has hit or exceeded almost every target so far.
People benefit from economic growth, regardless of dictatorships or democracy. And everyone always gives economic growth top preference. That is why so many Pakistanis migrate to USA, and give up their rights to vote in Pakistan. If Shaukut Aziz hits his targets, Pakistan should be alright. And if the money is distributed to the poorest levels. Employed people don`t get involved in violence. Pakistan seems to have learnt from the Indian elections, and this year`s budget has a lot allocated to farmers.
In the end, Musharraf will be judged by one and only one thing. Not by his democratic credentials. Not by his liberlism or conservatism. Not by Kashmir. Nor by war against or for terrorism. Nor by dealings with India.
He will be judged by how many jobs he can provide, i.e. economic growth and its equitable distribution. If he can continue to do that, for the next four years or so, all his sins will be forgiven by the average Pakistanis.
If he cannot, then it won`t matter how much enlightened moderation he introduces. It will only appeal to the rich (i.e. Chowk) crowd. Everyone else just wants jobs. All surveys indicate that. After all, all of us Indians and Pakistan did not migrate out of our countries, to get a chance to vote. We gave up our chance to make more money..............
#53 Posted by bts on June 11, 2004 5:29:19 am
AALA! Great fun to read!
I was thinking about writing something on similar lines. No, I think I should simply forward this article...:)
``Mr Musharraf, as a starter, for God’s sake try to understand, yours personal and military’s corporate concerns are not equivalent to national interests.``
It`s about time that all of us realize this, and quit thinking that Pakistanis are some savage, barbarians, who need a ``DANDA`` or that the population needs to pass metric to know whats good for them, and till then we need an `organized` and `uncorrupted` institution like military. And that Musharraf is the `ideal` person for the job. This is precisely the reason 300 million of us remained colonized for one and a half centuries by a band of ten thousand men. It has remained so since.
It`s about time...
I was thinking about writing something on similar lines. No, I think I should simply forward this article...:)
``Mr Musharraf, as a starter, for God’s sake try to understand, yours personal and military’s corporate concerns are not equivalent to national interests.``
It`s about time that all of us realize this, and quit thinking that Pakistanis are some savage, barbarians, who need a ``DANDA`` or that the population needs to pass metric to know whats good for them, and till then we need an `organized` and `uncorrupted` institution like military. And that Musharraf is the `ideal` person for the job. This is precisely the reason 300 million of us remained colonized for one and a half centuries by a band of ten thousand men. It has remained so since.
It`s about time...
#52 Posted by ballukhan on June 10, 2004 5:42:02 am
It is pity that instead of looking at the ``root causes`` (if I may use the favourite jagon of these mullahs trying to sound esoteric) within the Pakistani society, polity, economics and the very power relations within their own families some try to attribute all their miseries to the grand conspiracies and actions of everything American (and hence the Jews in final analyses!!).
I cannot but call it delusion- we appear to be living in a society which is convinced that the UFO-s are going to come and take them to other planetary heavens.!
Is it a sign of things to come in future?? Let`s hope not.
I cannot but call it delusion- we appear to be living in a society which is convinced that the UFO-s are going to come and take them to other planetary heavens.!
Is it a sign of things to come in future?? Let`s hope not.
#51 Posted by ZahraJ on June 9, 2004 8:38:07 pm
[The moribund, impotent Organization of Islamic Conference (OIC) he wants to infuse new life into has always been nothing but a chattering club for a few dozens visionless, self-serving tyrants. By any civilized definition of the term righteous as many as 45 out of 56 head of member states of the OIC have no fair right to represent their respective countries. Their sole credential is self-assumed indispensability. Perpetuating themselves at the helm, by every possible mean, is their only goal. ]
Is there any alternative ?
Is there any alternative ?
#50 Posted by jang on June 9, 2004 2:53:39 pm
Here is my root-cause explanation.
if you take a set of peoples you refer to as the ummah (the large majority), the comon theme is that they are docile and timid and easily bossed over as you suggest. this is perhaps a result of the middle-east being bossed over since the time of halaku, follwed by the feudal ottomans, with corrupt governors and beurocracy, who used religion to keep control (they were the caliphs!). this is a far longer term cause i suggest. the west if at all played a minor liberator if at all (not the cleanest). however the middle east indeed has been very docile thru long centuries of brutal subjugation, which serious insecurities. after the western intervention and giving power to local overlords, add to that some fuel thru oil money, and you have some explosive mixture we all have to deal with, since it is a given that non-ummah dont seem to be a much of a mood to recognize special status and aspirations (as you put it) of ``muslims``. (I dont think the aspirations are as you think, I think ummah folks have same aspirations as any others and are not any more special and non-ummah).
if you take a set of peoples you refer to as the ummah (the large majority), the comon theme is that they are docile and timid and easily bossed over as you suggest. this is perhaps a result of the middle-east being bossed over since the time of halaku, follwed by the feudal ottomans, with corrupt governors and beurocracy, who used religion to keep control (they were the caliphs!). this is a far longer term cause i suggest. the west if at all played a minor liberator if at all (not the cleanest). however the middle east indeed has been very docile thru long centuries of brutal subjugation, which serious insecurities. after the western intervention and giving power to local overlords, add to that some fuel thru oil money, and you have some explosive mixture we all have to deal with, since it is a given that non-ummah dont seem to be a much of a mood to recognize special status and aspirations (as you put it) of ``muslims``. (I dont think the aspirations are as you think, I think ummah folks have same aspirations as any others and are not any more special and non-ummah).
#49 Posted by abrara on June 9, 2004 2:53:39 pm
Dear brothers:
As discussion has as usual started drifting into intellectual wilderness, far away from the real topic, please accept my gratitude for reading, appreciating as well as criticizing and commenting on a modest piece of protestation of mine addressed to our saviour-in-chief.
All the best
With well wishes
Abrar
As discussion has as usual started drifting into intellectual wilderness, far away from the real topic, please accept my gratitude for reading, appreciating as well as criticizing and commenting on a modest piece of protestation of mine addressed to our saviour-in-chief.
All the best
With well wishes
Abrar
#48 Posted by sadna on June 9, 2004 11:48:35 am
Basically for supporters of Al Qaeda, politics in the Ummah are reduced to something like a black box, you keep putting in terrorist attacks into one end, and at the other end, the world will scramble to figure out from the chemical traces of your explosives and decapitated heads of your victims what is on your mind, then do all the legwork to create and deliver you the government of your choice on a platter.
With this black box, you don`t have to make any effort except kill as many people as possible, your own and others. And President Musharraf stands behind you in your endeavors. He is your moderator, ie, he is spelling out this scheme to the world.
As for enlightened - He probably means he will moderate in a well-lighted room or he means that all other types of politics(notably broad-based inclusive participatory politics) have been jettisoned from the ship of the Ummah, making it very light.
Tho aisay ho gaya `enlightened moderation`.
With this black box, you don`t have to make any effort except kill as many people as possible, your own and others. And President Musharraf stands behind you in your endeavors. He is your moderator, ie, he is spelling out this scheme to the world.
As for enlightened - He probably means he will moderate in a well-lighted room or he means that all other types of politics(notably broad-based inclusive participatory politics) have been jettisoned from the ship of the Ummah, making it very light.
Tho aisay ho gaya `enlightened moderation`.
#47 Posted by arjun_m on June 9, 2004 10:41:47 am
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#46 Posted by Urstruly on June 9, 2004 10:11:27 am
jang
I am not using rhetoric but only stating the obvious - the flying of planes into the buildings and blowing oneself up was not only the next logical step but also the inevitable consequence of the years of suffocation. Imagine a pressure cooker on fire whose all vents have been sealed shut. The dictators in the Muslim world would not survive a day unless they are supported by their foreign masters. Just take the example of Pakistan where Musharaf`s removing himself from power was inevitable since this regime was seen as a paraih regime isolated by the whole world. The economic cost for army to stay in power was becoming unbearable and then 9/11 happened and military sold their soul to the devil. Now the dictator is treated as a state guest by those very people who are destroying one country after the other in the name of democracy. Same thing with Qaddafi - as soon as he agreed to fight the fight for West against those who are resisting West, he has become a friend. Take another example of Palestinians. As long as they were fighting Americans by hijaking their planes and attacking their military bases in middle east they were accorded with 1984 peace accord and then Oslo peace accord. But as soon as they ``made friends`` with Americans and concentrated their struggle only on Israel, they are being murdered by the dozen everyday literally for past so many years and in the whole wide world there is no one heeding their plight, not even those who are destroying country after country in the name of democracy and human rights. The point, in short is that, there is evil and then there is this root of the evil. The evil cannot be stopped until the source of this evil is stopped first. It is like a tree; as long as its roots are in the ground no matter how many branches you chop off, it will keep shooting new branches but when you cut the roots.....
Your next point is about the ``non-ummah`` places where democracy has happened successfully. The point is valid but out of context. Muslims are different from ``non-ummah`` in a sense that the religion that they subscribe to has an integrally unseparable political ideology component as well. This political ideology can only be separated from a Muslim when you take his religion away from him and leave him with rituals. Islam is a religion that is anti-ritual; it is something that you live and breath with your every breath it is not a buffet from where you pick those things which suite your life style and leave those which don`t. That is exactly the reason those ``Muslims`` who advocate secularism also advocate that Islam be rejected at all levels as well because they understand that two cannot go hand in hand. Islam as a political ideology is currently the only common sense ideology that challenges the global in-equality and injustice - the two root causes of deterrent to peace - extending beyond the barriers of nationalism, religion, colour and creed. Those who have stake in this inequality and injustice will not only oppose it but they will also make sure that this ideology is contained, restricted from evolution, and stripped off of any political power. That is the reason we have dictators who are supported vhemently by West, they want our education system controlled, they want our natural resources controlled, they keep our bureaucracy and politicians corrupt and they want to keep our economy dependent thru their agents and dictators. And if thru their dictators they have allowed us to exercise some form of political ideology (aka Islamization) these dictators have made sure that it is not let evolved and thus it has taken the most virulent form (e.g. Hadud and Blasphemy laws in Paksitan) .Muslims by nature are timid, peaceful, and easy going people on one hand but on the other hand raising voice agaisnt the injustice is the part of their religion. A time has eventually come that now some of them have started saying - enough is enough.
I am not using rhetoric but only stating the obvious - the flying of planes into the buildings and blowing oneself up was not only the next logical step but also the inevitable consequence of the years of suffocation. Imagine a pressure cooker on fire whose all vents have been sealed shut. The dictators in the Muslim world would not survive a day unless they are supported by their foreign masters. Just take the example of Pakistan where Musharaf`s removing himself from power was inevitable since this regime was seen as a paraih regime isolated by the whole world. The economic cost for army to stay in power was becoming unbearable and then 9/11 happened and military sold their soul to the devil. Now the dictator is treated as a state guest by those very people who are destroying one country after the other in the name of democracy. Same thing with Qaddafi - as soon as he agreed to fight the fight for West against those who are resisting West, he has become a friend. Take another example of Palestinians. As long as they were fighting Americans by hijaking their planes and attacking their military bases in middle east they were accorded with 1984 peace accord and then Oslo peace accord. But as soon as they ``made friends`` with Americans and concentrated their struggle only on Israel, they are being murdered by the dozen everyday literally for past so many years and in the whole wide world there is no one heeding their plight, not even those who are destroying country after country in the name of democracy and human rights. The point, in short is that, there is evil and then there is this root of the evil. The evil cannot be stopped until the source of this evil is stopped first. It is like a tree; as long as its roots are in the ground no matter how many branches you chop off, it will keep shooting new branches but when you cut the roots.....
Your next point is about the ``non-ummah`` places where democracy has happened successfully. The point is valid but out of context. Muslims are different from ``non-ummah`` in a sense that the religion that they subscribe to has an integrally unseparable political ideology component as well. This political ideology can only be separated from a Muslim when you take his religion away from him and leave him with rituals. Islam is a religion that is anti-ritual; it is something that you live and breath with your every breath it is not a buffet from where you pick those things which suite your life style and leave those which don`t. That is exactly the reason those ``Muslims`` who advocate secularism also advocate that Islam be rejected at all levels as well because they understand that two cannot go hand in hand. Islam as a political ideology is currently the only common sense ideology that challenges the global in-equality and injustice - the two root causes of deterrent to peace - extending beyond the barriers of nationalism, religion, colour and creed. Those who have stake in this inequality and injustice will not only oppose it but they will also make sure that this ideology is contained, restricted from evolution, and stripped off of any political power. That is the reason we have dictators who are supported vhemently by West, they want our education system controlled, they want our natural resources controlled, they keep our bureaucracy and politicians corrupt and they want to keep our economy dependent thru their agents and dictators. And if thru their dictators they have allowed us to exercise some form of political ideology (aka Islamization) these dictators have made sure that it is not let evolved and thus it has taken the most virulent form (e.g. Hadud and Blasphemy laws in Paksitan) .Muslims by nature are timid, peaceful, and easy going people on one hand but on the other hand raising voice agaisnt the injustice is the part of their religion. A time has eventually come that now some of them have started saying - enough is enough.
#45 Posted by jang on June 9, 2004 9:02:03 am
Urstruely
``people`s back have been pushed against the wall and in order to fight back they are flying planes into the buildings and blowing themselves up in the cars. How much more you want, as far as ``owning`` the responsibility goes``
I hate it when you use rehtoric. Why do these things, if a real solution is local. Throw out the local power usurpers and gain control is the most logical step. Flying planes or cars full of bombs to me sounds far fetched. This has happened successfully in other non-ummah places (e.g south africa, east germany, hungary). So, what is stopping the countries of interest from doing something simila..which is far more obviously logical.
``people`s back have been pushed against the wall and in order to fight back they are flying planes into the buildings and blowing themselves up in the cars. How much more you want, as far as ``owning`` the responsibility goes``
I hate it when you use rehtoric. Why do these things, if a real solution is local. Throw out the local power usurpers and gain control is the most logical step. Flying planes or cars full of bombs to me sounds far fetched. This has happened successfully in other non-ummah places (e.g south africa, east germany, hungary). So, what is stopping the countries of interest from doing something simila..which is far more obviously logical.
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