What Would Happen?

Roz

Thanks for coming back to me on this, I agree from palestinian point of view Violence stagnates the intifada as the Israelis grow the settlements on the back of Palestinian violence which compared to the israelis is on a much smaller scale. However with the uninspriring leadership palestinians will suffer as much from Israeli Persecution as much as they do from the lethargy of their own leadership.

wajahat:

Wasn`t checking this thread.

People have retorted that the sight of Palestinian kids throwing rocks was a form of non-violence.

In any case, I don`t know if it`ll work or not. But violence as a method to achieve freedom rarely brings about a desired result. There may be a few exceptions - say East Timor. Eritrea also separated with a degree of violence. Yugoslavia separated violently.

But there are countless struggles based on violence that go on without being any closer to the aim. In the case of Palestine, I think the Palestinean violence is working completely in favor of Israel`s overall strategy. And the strategy is to procure more land from the West Bank. A continuation of suicide bombers will allow the media to upholster the perception that the instigators are Palestinians. The projection of this perception is the means by which an occupation force can get away with biting further into the Palestinian territory without much ado from the West. And the West is the power that really counts as, according to Eqbal Ahmed, the population of those areas are living in a free society thus giving them a choice to see which policies are right and which are not - the arab world`s opinion is of little consequence. The exercise of this choice by those in the West is made easier by suicide bombers.

Anyhow, the end result is that the Palestinian actions are at best stationary. Their cause goes no where. Israel is at least moving with some vision. Here is an excerpt from MIFTAH.org - Edward Said has voiced these statistics when stating how the 1992 peace plan was rather useless:

``Since the signing of the Declaration of Principles in 1993, uptill august 2001: more than 70,000 acres of land have been confiscated, over 674 houses demolished and 282,000 trees have been uprooted in the West Bank alone. The reasons given for these activities include: building without a permit, the Absentee Law (which states that land not in use for three continuous years is subject to Israeli confiscation), and security purposes.

The area occupied by the settlements in the West Bank doubled in the seven years between 1992 and 1999 from 77 km² (which represented 1.3% of the West Bank) to 150 km² (which represents 2.6% of the West Bank). ``

It is not so much the amount of land captured that is interesting as the strategic positioning of settlements.

However, Israel can only succeed in maintaining this vision if it manages to get more and more Palestinians to leave. By 2010, it is projected that the population of Jews and Palestinians (whose population grows faster) in the total area of Israel and occupied territories would be the same. This will prove to be a far harder matter to tackle. I don`t know how encircling of Palestinians with Jewish settlements and walls will fit into this. I mean you can`t cage in a few million people. Apartheid fails in the long term.

Anyhow, as per Eqbal Ahmed and Edward Said, a non-violent struggle with a means to projecting it - ie say an English version of Al-Jazeera - to a western audience may be a more productive strategy.

Cheers!

#19 by Romair

[Israelis are basically screwing themselves for the long run.]

Man, they are not complaining. They have resolutely held on despite the tremendous hostility they encounter from all sides of their borders, and unlike your Army, that shamefully surrendered with 93,000 of its men at Dhaka, the Israeli Army defeated a coalition of 7 hostile Arab nations in 6 days flat. Don`t worry, the Israelis will be around long after you and I have gone. It is Pakistan that you should be worried about.

[If all the Arabs pointed towards Isreal simultaneously, and urinated, Israel would drown.]

I know you are fantasizing about that, but before the Arabs can ever think of anything like that, Israel is cunning enough to make them drown in their own piss.

Israelis are basically screwing themselves for the long run. There are too many mistakes they are making.

For starters:

- What was the point of forming a country right smack in the Middle of Arabistan? Who gave them that advice? After WWII Israel could have formed a country anywhere. Apparently their maulvis got the better of them, and they formed their country where they would remain in a perpetual war for survival.

They should have asked for a nice piece of land on the border of Vancouver and Seattle. They would lived comfortably for their remaining generations and both Canada and USA would have benefited from them also.

- What is the point of remaining in a perpetual war with Arabs? Arabs may be ignorant bufoons right now. But they weren`t always like that. And they will not always remain like that. Eventually tiny little Isreal, the size of Lahore, will not be able to take on 22 Arab countries. If all the Arabs pointed towards Isreal simultaneously, and urinated, Israel would drown.

They should accept the 67 borders, make peace, and then build my wall around that border.

- Isrealis are now migrating out of Israel, with very few coming in. In addition, Isreali birth rate is very low. While the Palestinians are having kids like rabbits. Israel will, in 15 years or so, have to implement an official South Africa like apartheid to ensure Arabs don`t outnumber Jews, within Israel and its occupied terroritories. Even if it does that, eventually, its own official Arab citizens will someday outnumber Jews. What will happen then?

Israelis are playing their long term cards incorrectly. Europeans are already turning against them, due to the Middle East violence that is spreading all over the world. In the USA, the fringe politicians like Buchanan and Nader already are pointing to Israel`s violations as a cause of US problems...........

They would be well-advised to make peace now, when the still hold most of the cards........

The door has closed for any kind of march, so to speak. The Wall will keep the protestors out. Greater Israel is one gated community for the privileged.

Re hassansiddiqui 13

``Its power is derived from a strong support from US which is due in large part to economic power that Israelis wield. ``

It is this flawed assumption, and its corllaries, that has never allowed the Muslim world to understand why no amount of its money and screaming makes a dent against Israel`s strength. You can cry, scream, and pontificate on Jewish conspiracies all you want but the fact is that Israel is a pluralist democracy with a functioning judiciary, rule of law, and minimal constitutional guarantees. That kind of stuff sells in America and it makes a country strong internally. You want to fight Israeli influence in Washington, come up with an Arab country which has democracy, rule of law, and civil rights. Until then, forget it. Because every time you mention Israeli excesses, it`ll be plain to point out that there is only one country in the Middle East where Muslims and Arabs have the right to vote in pluralist elections, where independent courts are open for anyone to approach, and where Arab political prisoners are not locked without trial, incommuncado for decades. Guess what country that is.

Rozaiba #11

Being a great admirer of both Eqbal ahmed and Edward Said, I just wanted to ask you whether your really think that the Gandhiesque Non Violence by Palestinians and Muslims in general will ever work, even implored on whatever grand scales. As the Ummah, a word I hate to use, can we realise that the Violent Antagonism from the West is not based upon our Violence, Although this is used as a fig leaf. Most of the time it boils down to the Resource (Oil) or Demographic (Giving the Displaced Europeon Jews a place to go rather than have them emigrate in large numbers to the West) question.

The Muslim Side of the Violence is a reaction here of the onslaught from the West. Non Violence is a noble aspiration, but unfortunately, it will just not work in our terrible world.

#10 by Romair

[At that time, it struck me: Why in the world are Pakistanis so bothered about issues and peoples who could care less about us? Our relationship with the, “Ummah” seems to be a one-way street. The Ummah being least pushed about us.]

Enlightenment at last for our resident Muslim (rather, Ummah) Affairs expert.

[When India had its forces piled up on Pakistan’s borders recently, what did the Palestinians do? They sent an official delegation to Vajpayee, Quite a slap on Pakistan’s face.]

LOL!

#10 by Romair

[At that time, it struck me: Why in the world are Pakistanis so bothered about issues and peoples who could care less about us? Our relationship with the, “Ummah” seems to be a one-way street. The Ummah being least pushed about us.]

Enlightenment at last for our resident MUAE (Muslim and Ummah Affairs Expert).

[When India had its forces piled up on Pakistan’s borders recently, what did the Palestinians do? They sent an official delegation to Vajpayee, Quite a slap on Pakistan’s face.]

LOL!

Nothing will happen if Muslim nations don`t realize once and for all that the world is now being run on market forces. If we have to get our rights, we need to improve our economy and build solid institutions which are corruption free and credible enough to be heard. The dictators which rule our Muslim nations right now don`t seem to realize this. If Palestinians want a separate homeland, Muslim nations need to be economically powerful enough to make the US think twice before supporting Israel.

Might is right. As long as Israel has power to do whatever it wants, it will. Its power is derived from a strong support from US which is due in large part to economic power that Israelis wield. As a result, Muslim nations need to become more powerful, more supportive and more cooperative with each other.

Romair - I am sure Yasser Arafat and the people of Palestine have a lot of things to worry about then analysing and condeming the Kashmir issue. Not to mention the illiteracy rates and controls on the press. So I think you shouldnt jump the gun there!

But what you have spoken is partly true, most Arabs (not Iranians) - are highly ignorant of the Kashmir issue, and that is because frankly, they do not really give a damn. Having lived in the Arab world for over 13 years (growing up) - I can safely say that the Arabs (not all nations - i mean mainly Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Syria) - are quite introverted, and are only really concerned about one major global issue - war on iraq and the occupation in Palestine.

Pakistan is the most powerfrull Muslim nation interms of military capacity and it is growing economically. So the decision to recognize Israel....I cant agree with your notion that we should accept it now, as there is an ongoing occupation, if Israel reverts to 1967 borders, then it would make sense to renue diplomatic ties. - I also like your solution, so what the Palestinians dont need is bullets, bombs and more bombs, instead they should just carry on having sex. You give new meaning to the term `make love not war!`nice one mate.

Gibran Bham

Gibram Bham:

Recently read Eqbal Ahmed`s comments on the time he met Yasser Arafat back in the 70`s. He had advised him to make use of the contradiction that exists in Israel`s stance. And more importantly, reveal that contradiction to the western audience - he probably stated the western audience specifically as those of the East and Muslim countries were living under a non-democratic dictatorial set up. The strategy Eqbal Ahmed advised (and others too have advised) was that the Palestineans embark on a completely non-violent struggle. No act of violence should be done whatsoever. This will reveal to the world the contradiction in Israel`s stance - of its false claim that it is trying to defend itself. According ot Edward Said, Yasser Arafat listened intently and took notes. But did nothing.

Many years later, after the PLO had been discredited by the Western media particularly in line of violent actions by its members, Eqbal Ahmed met Yasser Arafat again (in Tunis I think). By then it seemed it was too late. Yasser Arafat did not even bother taking notes that time.

Anyhow, even today that same strategy can work - perhaps even on a grander scale. As you wonder, ``what would happen?``. Indeed, what would...

I hired a Palestinian Christian house painter. We had interesting discussions on Palestine and Israel, while he was painting and I was cooking. Palestinians are going through a virtual religious apartheid. Some of the rules and regulations imposed upon them, due to their religion, by Israel, that he explained were horrifying. They make the restrictions on Ahmedis in Pakistan, look like a coffee party. The poor guy wasn`t even allowed to add a room to his house, by the govt., if he were to get married.

I sympathized with him.

In the end, I mentioned Pakistan to him, and its issues. Interestingly he didn’t know a thing. Nor did he seem to bothered about Kashmir etc. At that time, it struck me: Why in the world are Pakistanis so bothered about issues and peoples who could care less about us? Our relationship with the, “Ummah” seems to be a one-way street. The Ummah being least pushed about us.

Not that I don’t sympathise with the Palestinians on a humanitarian basis. But why don’t they sympathise with Pakistan? When did Yasir Arafat ever give any kind of statement in favor of Pakistan. Should we then keep naming our kids after him? When India had its forces piled up on Pakistan’s borders recently, what did the Palestinians do? They sent an official delegation to Vajpayee, Quite a slap on Pakistan’s face.

And look at what Iran did during the nuclear scanadal.

I think Pakistan should recognize Israel, under the 67 borders. Palestine itself has recognized Israel. As has the Arab league, uptil 67 borders. Why cannot we? Would Palestine ever de-recognize India to support Pakistan? This is in no way to justify what Israel is doing. But if we can recognize India, with whom we have a direct conflict, why not recognize Israel?

As for Palestinians, all they need to do is to do what Muslims do best. Continue having kids. In fifteen years or so, Palestinians will outnumber Israelis, within the borders of Israel and the occupied terriroties. Till that time, Palestinians should just maintain status quo relations with Israel, and not cause any problems. Once the demographics change, Israel will have to accommodate Palestinians. The only way to counter it would be to carry out South Africa style official apartheid (as opposed to a virtual one). And I don’t think the world would tolerate that again.

As for the USA, it is Israel, and not any other country, which is causing the USA so many problems. The only two politicians openly highlighting this are Pat Buchanan and Ralph Nader (is he of Arabic decent?). But sooner or later, most Americans will recognize this also.

gibram

A good hearted article, I wish we could get this kind of unison. But with our state of autocracy and imposed imperialism, I doubt if we will ever get there. As Che Guevara Said, ``There is no revolution without a Gun.``

nothing..absolutely nothing. Fox would show Islamists are extremists, the world media would probably have a field day with ``EXPERTS`` (who don` know squat) commenting on the state of the world, Govts. will get edgier, and terrorists and enemies will decide that to bomb such a crowd will generate amazing headlines.

What Muslims need is economic superiority? That is the only way you deal with nations now. Not with guns, or marches. These don`t work anymore. What Israel provides USA is that money and expects its support politically in return. Which Muslim nation can come close to that level? Not even Saudia is as strong.

Unfortunately, we`re all too busy robbing our own people, to think about that. Everything wrong, is done by Muslim nations. Defective products, cheating, low quality items, you name it, we do it.

If there`s one thing i love about the west is this. Their laws of business work. They never compromise on their word or their products and if they do, they get punished for it. Far cry from Pakistan. It`s the only nation of the world, where you can sell the most dangerous of products, and still get away with it.

wow, such positive reactions! Im very impressed.
Cynicism has taken over the Muslim psyche! Look back in history, and positve and peacefull methods were given equal scorn. However, can we put aside the conspiracy theories, the anti-West and anti-Jewish sentiment for just a while and try to take matters back in our own hands? I am a great believer in optimism, the fact that the next day can bring a better day, why cannot we focus our energies on productive solutions instead of giving up and allowing hate, anger and frustration to foster. I cannot understand it.
Though this article is shorter than the other two I have published, it deals with an issue which is very important to Muslims in general. If (many of us) are Pakistanis, we look to make this country a better place with our little contributions of ariticles, many as analogies and many as direct analysis. Palestine is one such issue that is etched in the hearts and minds of millions and millions of people world over, and this issue allows resentment to grow. We must counter it. Let us not leave our future in the hands of someone else. lets confront it head on with a pragmatic approach.
What would happen? who knows, but we wont know till we try. who would be willing to take up such a cause. I do wonder.

Gibran Bham