Can Pakistan Work?

there are no state organised pogroms in pakistan ..............really that is something we didnt know about what would the Mr. Hoodbhoy call the ethnic cleansing of the AHMEDIA and worse the SHIA communities and the government mum and inability to control attacks on the mosques belonging to shia community then . Well we keep hearing about this in the entire world media seems Mr . Hoodbhoy is unaware of these fact .Plese sir we request u to update yourself about the situation in your country before pointing a fingure at INDIA.

Bengalis (of whatever religion or region, i.e. East or West, Bangladesh or West Bengal) generally refer to most North Indians (notably excluding Punjabis!) as Hindusthanis. That doesn`t stop Indian Bengalis from thinking of themselves as Indians. All communities - religious, ethnic, whatever - think in terms of `us` and `them`. All of us have multiple identities and it`s about time we began to think whether patriotism/nationalism, etc have any meaning really.

137 by dost-mittar

I am thankful to dost-mittar and also `chowk.com` who enabled me to contact a gentleman who belonged to my age and area but to the community which migrated from the area that came to be called West Pakistan after partition of India. I hope this may help me trace out other friends also who belonged to that very category.

Di

Abay, there appears to be confusion between the terms `Hindustani` and `Indian.` The two have never been exact equivalents, the latter being the older and broader name.

The name `Hindustani` was used flexibly. In the linguistic cultural sense it referred specifically to the urdu-based culture of Awadh and nearabouts. Thus, `Hindustani` language was Urdu-Hindi. ``Hindustani` music was the music of north India. `Hindustani` dances` were kathak and other dances of Lucknow/Delhi area, and so on.

That surely doesnt mean that nobody in the south/east/and west thought of himself or herself as Indian. Certainly that`s not the implication for south Indians who had their own fully-developed non-Hindustani languages, and traditions of dance, drama, and music. Before he received revelations in Spain, Iqbal too considered himself everybit Hindustani (Indian in a broader than Punjabi sense).

Jinnah, of course, was keenly aware of his Indian (if `non Hindustani`) heritage. That is why, he did NOT want the name `India` to be given to one of the two entities borne out of India.

Di, TNT messed up many things of history, geography, and culture. `Hindustan` whether used in a narrower or broader sense, was a geographic entity. After partition, it was tried to be given a religious foundation. That doesn`t work quite neatly.

Consider the cruel irony that between the two geographical inheritors of `India,` the one that explicitly rejects the label of `Hindustani` is also the one that has officially adopted Hindustani language and culture as its own.

Very-very mixed up boundaries of language, geography, and religion....

teshah:
I have contacted my friend. His email address is: roshanls@hotmail.com.

He did his matric from Hasan Abdal High School and he will be very happy if you contacted him.
Happy memories!

134 by dost-mittar

Thank you dear. I will wait for your post. I can be contacted direct on my email. My email address is: talawat@hotmail.com. May be internet and chowk do this miracle and `vichhre yaar mila dewe`.

As regards the Punjab and the Unionist Party I am to say that it was actually not a political party in true sense but a trade union of the toady feudals of Punjab. It disappeared as soon as Punjab was politicised by Muslim League, Congress and the Akali Party of Tara singh.

perhaps Faiz wrote this couplet for Pakistan`s imprisoned democracy -- molested, mutilated devastated by Musharraf......and the anxiety it is causing among the Pakistan`s expatriates and home intellectuals.....

Chaman pe ghaarut-e gul cheeN se jaanay keya guzree
Qafas se ho kay saba baar baar guzree hai

last misra a million dollar bund -- what a poetic descripion of becoming anxious and showing anxiety -- Qafas se HO KAY saba baar baar guzri hai.....

.......this is what Dr. Hoodbhoy marvellously written anxious column represents.......anxiety about Pakistan never-ending line of military prophets.....hawking the SAME 50 years old rotten rancid Snake Oil as the yet newest remedy for all Pakistan ills.....

teshah:
shahji, I`ll get back to you after speaking to the said gentleman.

dionysus:
If the unionist leaders approached the British rulers, I doubt if they were representing hindus and sikhs. It is like Ammanullah Khan claiming that he speaks for kashmiris even though no pandit, sikh, dogra or buddhist supports his demands. And I am not sure if many muslims supported them either. The ghadar movement in north america was primarily by panjabis and it never occurred to them that they were fighting for an independent panjab. When the muslim, hindu and sikh panjabis volunteered for Azad Hind Fauj, they did not think that they were fighting for Panjabistan. For that matter, when Iqbal sang about `hindi hain hum watan hai` he wasn`t thinking of Panjab alone.

I agree with you that we panjabis called hindi-speaking people hindustani. But this term denoted a linguistic-ethnic meaning similar to madrasis and bengalis and not a national connotation.
...and now, I better go and deal with all the flak I am getting on my employment equity board from my Indian brethern.

#53 by yasirz

[besides probably half of your army is malnourished and incapable of waging combat...just like the cricket team :)]

Remember, the very same malnourished army took 93,000 able-bodied, virile Paki soldiers prisoners as they were busy raping Bangla women in 1971, and then kicked Paki ass in Kargil forcing Nawaz Sharif to run to Washington to beg Clinton for a reprieve, not to mention the thrashing you guys received in 1948 and 1965 as well.

And the Indian Cricket Team mauled your team in both the test series and one-dayers early this year.

So what are we talking about here?

dost mittar #129

You are being extremely disingenous. I didn`t mention Hindu, Sikh or Muslim leaders of the Unionist party. I mentioned the leaders of the Unionist party, who all wanted an independent Punjab and didn`t give two hoots about Islam, Hinduism or `India`.

Punjabis never considered themselves to be Indian. `Hindustani` meaning Poorbia or Hindi-Urdu speaker was practically an insult among Punjabis. If our forefathers could come back and see modern day Punjabi Khatris calling themselves `Hindustanis` they would die laughing.

121 by dost_mittar

Thank you dear dost_mittar. Sorry, I dont remember any class-fellow Roshan Lal by name and the headmaster in my time in the G.H.S. Campbellpur was a Sikh gentleman, Gill by name. Any how I would love to contact Mr. Roshan Lal if you please give me his address.
May be he remembers me or any one I knew. I, Talawat, was a well-known boy at the school. In 1946 when a compaign was undergoing for the release of Azad Hind Fouj Officers I was in the forefront in getting the school and the whole bazar closed and leading a march with a Muslim League flag in my hand. In the afternoon all the students of the 10th class were made to fall in in the Police Station. Every one who was asked whether he was present in the `Jaloos` said ``No``. I was the only one who said, `` Yes, Iwas present``. In the evening the SHO came to our house in Cambellpur Cantt. riding on a horse. He lectured me for over an hour advising me against such political activity which might ruin my carrear. The next day the Headmaster, Mr. Gill also made me stand up in the class and admonished me against such an activity. But I never listened to them all and at last did get my carrear ruined while in Medical College.
``JanooN meiN jo bhi guzri bakar guzri he, agarchih dil pih kharabi hazzaar guzri he``, Faiz Ahmad Faiz

121 by dost_mittar

Thank you dear dost_mittar. Sorry, I dont remember any class-fellow Roshan Lal by name and the headmaster in my time in the G.H.S. was a Sikh gentleman Gill by name. Any how I would love to contact Mr. Roshan Lal if you please give me his address.

dionysus#127:
I do not know about Sir Sikandar`s approach to the British and you may be more knowlegeable about it. But I noticed that you did not add any hindu-sikh leaders of the unionist party among them. The fact is that Lahore was one of the priamary centres of freedom struggle; Lala Lajpat Rai and Bhagat Singh did not seek a separate Panjab; The Azad Hind Fauj of Subhash Bose was led by the three panjabis, a hindu (Sehgal), a muslim (Shahnawaz Khan) and a sikh (Dhillon).

sac #20 Roger`s `scientific` prognostications for India aren`t too bright either.

How does India stack up to China, for adventurous investors?

It doesn’t. India is a hopeless case. I still wouldn’t put any money in India. There’s always the occasional great success story, but the Indian government is hopeless. The infrastructure is a disaster. India talks a good game but not with my money. In China, I could use my mobile phone all over the country. In India, you have to buy a separate mobile phone in each city. And those guys claim to be the great IT leaders of the world. If you walk into the shops in India, you see computers that are three years behind what you would get in New York. Most phones there don’t work at all. It is a bureaucratic and chauvinistic nightmare. I went there very optimistic. But the reality close to the ground was not with my money. And the country, of course, is going to split up. It is not a real country. The English mushed it together in 1947 in a panic and the borders of India as we know it will not survive.


The regional tensions just can’t be tamed?

There are different religions, different languages, different everything. I mean, it is not a country. Not a logical country, anyway. Those tensions will come to the fore and something will happen. Now if you can find a good Indian company, this doesn’t mean you won’t make a fortune. England has been in decline for 80 years. A lot of people have still made a lot of money there—in stocks and otherwise too. So don’t get me wrong. But I only have so much time. If I found a good trader, I might do something in India, but otherwise I’ll skip India.



http://www.weedenco.com/welling/archive/li/v05i15lilogo.asp

#121 ``As far as I am aware, there was no significant movement to split Panjab from the rest of the subcontinent in the last century, except the Khalistan movement. ``

You have made this totally false statemant many times. Sardar Sikandar`s and Malik Khizar`s Unionist Party was a supporter of a united independent Punjab. They approached British leaders, including Churchill, about it and Malik Khizar believed he would get an independent Punjab almost to the end.

Punjab has not ever been a part of `India`. Historically, for Punjabis `Hindustanis` (indians) to the East and `Kandharis` (pathans) to the West were always the alien and foreign `other`. You can find many references in Punjabi literature that substantiate this.

#116 by teshah on October 23, 2004 5:44pm PT

Dear Teshah:

Your interact is a breath of fresh air here at Chowk, in otherwise vengeful interactions on India-Pakistan issues. Your generation lived in peace and amity, my generation fed the younger generation on hateful messages, and as a result some of our younger generation is mired in hateful hysteria on both side of the border. Before your generation part, we owe to chronolize the memories, good, bad and ugly. I am very keen to know such anecdotes from Pakistan side of the border. I met in Silicon Valley, an elderly gentleman in his 80s, who had migrated from Hydrabad to Karachi. He became as leading lawyer and also was Professor and taught law at Univ. of Karachi. It was amazing to see sparkle in his eyes and voice when he was narrating his childhood experiences in Hydrabad. He is fondly known in Silicon Valley`s Pakistani community as Professor sahib. There was a touch of sadness in his voice when he described the current state of Pakistan as a betrayal of the original vision.

I hope you will share more incidences of this kind from your lives journey.

Anil