Gladiator Musharraf of Pakistan

Re: # 24
Bhai Sahib I don`t support Mushraff myself but we have to accept some realities and reject fiction - to me a leader who delivers anything is good so Mushraff Sahib although a Gen. is better then most - I do respect your feelings .
In a world where we have to choose lesser evil because everyone is evil one way or the other - I support President Sahib`s Policies -

Re: # 24

Although you go a bit too far against Nawaz Sharif but if I accept what you said about him, even then Pervez is the worst thing Pakistan has ever had. It was not Nawaz Sharif who gave into American demands. It was the `pure` army. No political leader can put his influence on this institution. It was a lolly pop for army NCOs given by officers but in reality, it is only a joke.

Secondly, for your information, you remember only one page jang. In Pervez period, not very far ago, the advertisements of Nawaiwaqt were banned for a long time and it survived with real difficulty.

Lastly, it`s not easy to change others concepts. The only thing which surprises me is that people still support this dictator AFTER analyzing the current situation of Pakistan and he is solely responsible for that. If you want to, you can continue with your eyes closed.

Re: # 23 charging ( let me recharge you a bit ) ,
firstly , Gen. Jehangir Karamat never left Army for personal reaons but he left because he was being blackmailed they had some evidence of his corruption. I do 101% agree with you regarding army`s role in civilian affairs and if you read my posts and articles I had always stand against role of army in civilian affairs and feudrals.
secondly, as far as kargil is concerned Nawaz sharif was to blame he was the one who give into American demands if we would have waited for 5 more days things would have been different atleast in Siachen .
Nawaz was someone who had a typical Punjabi Mentality which is that every person who speaks good urdu and wears a pajama is RAW Agent and due to his mentality Sind and Balochistan case against Islamabad was in the making - and it finally broke now - .
even a blind person could see how free our media is today we are not at what I call a perfect stage but we are better today then India in terms of freedom of press and many other so-called first world countries. Remember when Nawaz bhai was in power what happened to JAnG ? well I remember we got 1 page JANG For a week or so -
Mushraff like every other leader has good and bad qualities but he is far more better then previous Pakistani leaders and dictators.

# 3 labyrinth1

Dear labyrinth1, with due respect, I was so surprised at your comments about Nawaz Sharif. Well I am not a supporter of him too but associating Kargil with Nawaz Sharif is definitely a deceit by Pakistan army. Having been under immense pressure of retreating from there, they wanted a scapegoat. And they found one in Nawaz Sharif. For the information, no one has EVER gone above army in Pakistan. Army has never been given orders. It is they who use the politicians (mind you that Jehangir Karamt left for personal reasons, otherwise he could also stage a similar coup).

Secondly, only the people whose close relatives in army support the coup. Yes Sharif government was bad but Pervez (self-imposed) government is WORST. Never has Pakistan been a more satellite state than in his period. Institutions have been totally ruined. Not only the butchery of Afghani Muslims was fully helped but also its own people in Wana, Waziristan were attacked with full army force.

About so-called freedom of press, I hope this link will open your eyes.

http://www.satribune.com/archives/sept04/P1_butt.htm

And then different important posts were given to retired army generals unjustly. Tanveer Naqvi, Khalid Maqbool, Javed Qazee, Moin Haider, Tauqeer Zia (guess what, this guy is in-service general, wow how much time a servicing general has to look after cricket board too........) to name a few.

Army guys have their own close-minded way of thinking. Probably it could be helpful in battlefields but definitely not in the practical world. As the greed of power never ends, let`s wait for another C130 for this dictator too.

Re: # 17
with due respect my friend , Khokar-a-par Border will be opened - sooner or later - if you know the area it is a security risk - since lot of Sindi Hindus live there which can not be trusted . National Security can not be compromised. Altaf Hussain Bhai knows that.

Well the question is ` Mush is a problem or part of a problem ? ` , I think Pres. Sahib is someone who is working actively for the good of Pakistan but there had been times when Mushraff had led us down ! Mushraff Sahib`s Relationship with America is a personal relationship and not what I call a long lasting relationship , such a relationship is a temprory one and after Mushraff Sahib leaves or dies our relationship with the world`s biggest bulley will suffer or will be uncertain. If we remember Dr.Rice statement that ` if Pakistani Nukes goes in the hands of extremists we have a backup plan to counter such a situation ` - proves that Mush is not so sucessful in terms of a long lasting relatoinship with US - this relationship is not normal and is based on personality not on state to state basis. Mushraff Sahib`s another wrong doing is encourging men in khaki`s to join civil services - which is creating a feeling of hatred between Armed Forces and Civilians. Mushraff Sahib is someone who is hated to be honest in the rural parts of Pakistan especially in Punjab just because President Sahib ( the man in power ) is not Punjabi and another reason is because Mushraff pulled the so called Son of Punjab Nawaz Sharif`s Chair .
re # 15 ,
Amit Bhai , Its good to see that you want to see a stable Pakistan , I thank you . As far as India is concerned let me be very clear with you my friend , Kashmir is the core issue solve this or atleast try to be sincere in solving this issue or there will be problems for both Pakistan and India in next 5 years . Mushraff had made the boldest offer in the history of Pakistan something no one even dare to think of or spoke openly Mushraff spoke that on National Television - but I suppose India is not commited in solving Kashmir Issue , they ( Indians ) tell us that terrorism is the biggest problem ? my answer to Indians whats the root cause of terrorism ? obviously Kashmir ! try to solve Kashmir and see how things move on from there -

after going thru the delicious reading of a mouth watering sumptuous dusterkhan of an article -- where an illdisciplined renegade soldier of fortune -- who overthrew a whole civilian government at gunpoint -- just to keep his job -- is compared to such awesome august personalities like George Washington and Kemal Ataturk...

.....couldn`t help but remember what wistful Saadi said with a sigh -- when he saw the elabarate Shahi dusterkhan of his host -- hai dawat-e shiraz.....hai dawat-e Shiraz

``Sometimes I wonder what would have happened if the General had made it back to his troops.``(Shiraz)

Sometimes I also wonder what would have happened if the General had made it back to his troops -- into his barrack after the coup d`etat -- instead of overstaying in the Aiwane Sadre -- or whartever that Civilian Building is called....by 5 doggone years......

Leadership is an art. Musharraf is more suited to be a commando tham a general or a statesman. He makes excellent tactical decisions but poor strategic ones. It reflects his military training and background.

Re: # 15
Amit,
What a positive and clear response from you. I couldn`t agree more. Unfortunately, people in power, regardless of how unfair that power is, do not relinquish it that easily. I am certainly not interested in bashing one ethnic group or another. What I don`t like is the domination over the entire country by that one group - just because it has the military might, paid for by everyone`s tax rupees. This is why the Bengalis left and this is why the other three provinces are fed up. Before this country falls apart, amid violence and all that gory stuff that happened in BD and partition, we need to rein in the Punjabi-dominated Pak army. This army, to my knowledge, has never committed violence in Punjab. Of course, an economic union with India, Pak army permitting, is the eventual answer. Such a union would solve the Kashmir problem without even trying. Kashmiris wold be part of India or Pakistan, based on current boundaries with free exchange of goods and services and a commitment not to resort to violence. Similarly, the three minor provinces of Pakistan would be part of the economic union without hegemony from Punjab or for that matter UP. This is similar to what should have happened instead of partition of India. But it`s never too late. Anything is better than the current misery called Pakistan.

Re: # 14
Labyrinth1,

After a lot of soul-searching, I am finding that Altaf Bhai has considerable merit for his actions. When one is forced to negotiate, staring at the barrel of a gun, one undergoes several conversions once the gun is removed. Thank God for the MQM! At least the people of Karachi showed the Punjabi power establishment that the docile and meek bhayya type can fight back. My own family is a regular supporter and contributor to the MQM. We demonstrated against BB and Nawaz Sharif governments right in front of the Pak embassy in Washington, DC. You won`t believe how we had numerous busses from NY, NJ, IL, MI, PA, IN, and people flying in from as far away as CA. I wrote some unkind posts against Altaf Bhai`s visit to Indian, but now I can clearly understand why he is being so proactive. The Punjabis do not want to open Khokrapar border crossing. They want all Indian visitors, including our relatives, to come through Lahore. Who are they to decide? The world does not begin and end in that city.
Please keep up the good work for the benefit of the people of Karachi. We should not let Kashmir divert us from our real aim - a better life for all in Pakistan. Thanks,

Re:nangaparbat#14

Salim, as an Indian I want Pakistan to succeed as a nation because I do not want an unstable neighbor with nukes. It is no use blaming one ethnic group or the other. The problem is with your system which does not promote participation of the people. The way to change it would be to curb your army`s influence by establishing some kind of governance body that can control the army chief - sort of like a board of directors controlling the CEO of a company. Then establish democracy which will allow everyone to participate and get a place at the table. It is difficult and painful, but it is really the only way. Just as we Indians produce fools like Laloo Prasad Yadav, you will also produce your share of such characters. But you may also produce Vajpayees and Manmohan Singhs after a while.

At the same time, lets keep improving relations between our two countries including negotiations on Kashmir. The time for breaking up nations and creating new ones is over. It is now time to go for the European model of common economy and soft political borders. We Indians want to focus on economic success and we wish the same to you too.

Re: # 13
Labyrinth1,
{``what we can`t understand is Punjab`s Silence over Balochistan Operation in 7o`s , what we can`t understand is Punjab`s Silence over Army Action against MQM in Karachi in 90`s , what we can`t understand is why did the Army Officers said , ` we will not fire over our own brother and sisters in 77 ` in Lahore and then they shot Baloch leaders after that .
The inter provisional harmony was absent especially in Nawaz Sharif time where somehow Nawaz Sharif then PM, made Motorways from Lahore to Peshawer - absence of funds for Sind and Balochistan , forcing even investors to invest in Punjab and not go to Karachi acts like that made Sind and Balochistan angry . ``}

Mr dear friend Labyrinth1 (BTW my name is Salim ;), you hit the nail right on the head. It is this lack of compassion from the Punjabi elite that has disillusioned me about the prospects of survival for Pakistan. Punjabi females were irate over the rape of the female physician in Sui, but when it became apparent that the rapists could be Punjabis, they shut up. There is a tendency in Punjab to whitewash the sins of their own. You mention the Army Action in Karachi. I am a victim of this tragedy on a personal level. My brothers were both active with MQM in the late 80s. My father, through his connections, learned that the Punjabi Rangers were going to arrest and shoot my brothers (Bollywood now calls this encounter shooting). Naturally, my father, being alarmed, quickly arranged for his sons to be out of the country within days. I was 10 years old and to this day have nightmares of Punjabi Rangers coming to shoot my brothers and me. Tell me, my friend, should such experiences be easily discarded for the sake of ``Pakistani unity?`` I am describing real events that happened to real people. If it were not for my father`s Turkish contacts, all three of us brothers would have been shot in cold blood by this Punjabi Army of the Land of the Pure.
Thank you for responding to my message. Remember, the blood of innocents is not wasted. One day these goons will get theirs. Remember Saddam Hussein? Where is he now?

Re # 12 my friend nangaparbat ,
As Baloch from mom side and a Urdu Speaking from Dad , I am in a very special place . I lived in Quetta for almost 4 years during my fathers posting and lived in Islamabad and Multan for a time as well . When we say Punjab we do not mean Punjabi Farmers we mean Punjabi Media and Punjabi Feudrals after all 2/3 of Armed Froces is Punjabi whoever there head is ; what we can`t understand is Punjab`s Silence over Balochistan Operation in 7o`s , what we can`t understand is Punjab`s Silence over Army Action against MQM in Karachi in 90`s , what we can`t understand is why did the Army Officers said , ` we will not fire over our own brother and sisters in 77 ` in Lahore and then they shot Baloch leaders after that .
The inter provisional harmony was absent especially in Nawaz Sharif time where somehow Nawaz Sharif then PM, made Motorways from Lahore to Peshawer - absence of funds for Sind and Balochistan , forcing even investors to invest in Punjab and not go to Karachi acts like that made Sind and Balochistan angry .
Nangaparbat Bhai as someone who in part of MQM and is quite active in cordination of youth - inside and outside Pakistan , let me be very clear that Altaf Hussain had nothing to do with India and if in public Altaf Hussain accepts anysort of links with India ; MQM will loose 80% of support within Urdu Speaking and Memon Speaking Community where he gets almost 99% of his votes and Altaf Hussain Bhai knows that very well .
As far as Baloch Natioinalist are concerned they need something obviously Balochistan and Sind had suffered in the past and is suffering - but honestly Baloch Nationalists would be last to care about this issue there issue is a ` non- issue ` which is how to control there sub tribes and kill eachother - and became more stronger . The Real Issues are NFC Awards which needs to be sort out a.s.a-

Re: # 11
Labyrinth1,
{``Mushraff is someone who has a vision for Pakistan and agree or not for whatever reason Pakistan has gained in Mushraff`s Rule . In the end of the day a good leader is someone who delivers - be it a civilian or military man .
Musraff or Bush whoever makes Pakistan , Pakistan will be loved and blessed by Pakistanis like me ``}

I can appreciate your genuine sentiments. The problem, however, is neither Musharraf nor the people of Pakistan. The issue is the Punjab-centric mentality of the establishment. Everything is done for the benefit of the feudal class of Punjab and its antiquated ``social security`` dole based on military ``service.`` The people of Pakistan are being fooled constantly into thinking that patriotism means stuffing money into the coffers of the majority province. Lately, there has been a new awakening among the non-Punjabis to this age-old ruse. The Bengalish, who were the real impetus behind Pakistan in the first place, recognized this farce over 35 years ago. With Indian help, they succeeeded in determining their own destiny and not be dictated from Lahore, 1000 miles away. Karachi, Quetta, and Peshawar should do the same. Any wonder what Altaf Bhai was doing in Delhi recently?

Re # 9 - Amit and #10 ,
I do agree with you about setting bad examples for the officers of Pakistani Army but we have to understand one thing which is that Mushraff although a Gen. is quite different from past dictators ( Ayub, Bhutto Sahib ( Civilian Marshall ) , Gen. Yayha , Zia , Bibi and Mian Sahib ) - Mushraff is someone who has a vision for Pakistan and agree or not for whatever reason Pakistan has gained in Mushraff`s Rule . In the end of the day a good leader is someone who delivers - be it a civilian or military man .
Musraff or Bush whoever makes Pakistan , Pakistan will be loved and blessed by Pakistanis like me - at a same time the poor class of Pakistan which is mostly not educated does not like Mushraff for his actions against Kashmiri Mujahideens especially -