Shrinking Violets in the Global Village

One small point I think is relevant is that India does have a more advanced capital markets system than china and the net inflows of FII`s are a result of that. Working capital for these companies an create just as many jobs and allow for personal wealth creation if the capital markets side of the equation is kept up.

Also, India unlike china isn`t suffering from speculative growth in the RE sector and the banks aren`t as highly leveraged. Slow and steady privatization has been the reason for the latter in India. With voer $750B in NPA`s in the chinese banks...it would be interesting to see how that impacts the monetary policy in China.

I don`t know if its just politicians or a whole bunch of brainwashed people who seem to think capitalism is the best thing since sliced bread. Sigh. They are everywhere. The level of discussion among people on this subject can be pathetic and juvenile. Its the way we`ve been educated in school - a little better outside the US than in, I think, but since the collapse of genuinely pluralistic, egalitarian ideals in our part of the world, the difference has probably narrowed. I had hopes for the World Social Forum but am now beginning to thonk its just a bunch of kids from the first world (and the intelligensia from the third) trying to have it all ways. They excluded the Zapatistas, the FARC, the PWG - anyone who actually *did* something to redistribute resources among people. It doesn`t take a big sacrifice to march and shout slogans. The WSF has reach and visibility but they need to radicalise. I have no illusions about politicians. Any change has to come from people.

Thats why Datta Samant was killed :)

Re: # 65
Bongdongs - I`ll take ur word for it! :)

bongdongs #67,
Ofcourse, any leader be it of a trade union or a political party in India is buyable. I mentioned the unions in comparable terms. In Bombay the Shiv Sena unions are the worst of the lot.

I personally think the ideal system for India would be somewhere between USA style capitalism (where things like insurance is a big fraud) and European style socialism (where the working people are penalised with high taxes so that unemployed can stay unemployed).

#62

I have some familiarity with Bombay trade unions as well. ``Socialist`` TU leaders like Datta Samant and GF were as corrupt as you can get.

#62

Are you kidding me!! Members of my family have with heroic ability tried to keep their small scale units alive in W.Bengal. Stories of their interactions with Bengal trade unions and the communist leadership will make your skin crawl.

These stories of the ``incorruptibility`` of the left, is part of leftist myth-making.

American trade unions along with their socialist/environmentalist counterparts are taking Indian trade unions for a ride. This is done under the guise of ``global brotherhood of workers and socialists``. Lack of forward thinking views among Indian trade unions leaves them unable to see beyond their noses.

Indian trade unionists and their left-supporters such as Vandana Shiva, Arundhati Roy, Sainath and others get a lot to play on US college campuses and on radio stations like Pacifica. Their talks genrally center around ritualistic attacks on George Bush and US mutinationals, followed by how ``Indian workers`` are being ``exploited`` under slave labor conditions and damage to environment in India. This makes for good airplay in the US.

As you can guess, I am pretty well plugged into leftist orgs :-)

Stuka - I`m trying to make you understand that the Chinese economic model would have been impossible without the Chinese political model. Why is it our problem? Well, if you are not worried about a junta armed with nuclear arms and territorial tenacity and tons of money and a marked fondness for cutting the ground under India`s feet, then it is about time you were. India and Indians like to call themselves superpowers but hate to take the inconvenient decisions necessary in being a superpower.

I`m so not advocating the North Korean model (are you kidding me?) and I think the free market in the end will turn out to be beneficial. But we are not the only people on the planet who are affected by our choices and in India itself are people who still need protection.

It depends on how well the govt can handle the twin pressures of liberalisation and protectionism. As for manufacturing - sure. We`re doing good. But we have this lamentable tendency to sit on our laurels. and to magnify our successes to the point that we can no longer see the true worth of our achievements. do i sound defeatist? i dont mean to. i think we can do brilliantly well. but we keep trying to model ourselves on what has worked before and come to grief when we arent mediocre because we refuse to understand that we are a country with our own problems and our perculiar circumstances.

Furthermore, I am not trying for a too nuanced view of the trade unions - they have nuances on their own. everything is shaded - like Vivek mentions below, which is what I was thinking about myself.

Amrita:

``You`re not thinking this through - the Chinese arent stupid. They can see the writing on the IT wall and are taking steps to counter it like any country desirous of maintaining its economic lead and without any sense of accountability to its people.``

Ofcourse not. And neither are we. Just as the Chinese are playing catch up in IT, we are playing catch up in manufactuiring. Automobile spare parts is an example where we have a lead even in manufacturong.

The other point you said..the chinese gov`t is not accountable to its people. Nothing we can do about it. Our job is to compete and compete well based on our strengths. Now, what is the alternative? That we take ourselves out of the global trade paradigm? What will be the result? The rest of the world will prosper, and we like North Korea, will stand alone in splendid isolation. Trade is an imperative. How we excel and gain competitive advantage is our job.

``If the Chinese lefties you like so much were to come set up political shop in India, you`d soon change your tune. ``

It depends. Firstly we are not asking for the Chinese political model. Secondly I see no hankering in China for the Indian model either. OTOH we are the ones with naxalite and leftist problems. The Chinese have left us behind in every HDI indicator pretty much.

``That is why American trade unions lobby for equal pay and conditions around the world and Indian trade unions and that of other developing nations oppose it vehemently. Yes, our lefty trade unions.``

You favor the trade unions in India with too much nuance. Indian trade unions oppose all global trade period. It is the reform friendly governments that have opposed Trade and Environment regulations. I agree with u that the time of a single world view is long gone. The American trade union is the biggest enemy of the Indian worker.

My personal take on socialists would be although they have been the source of many problems that India faces today, but they have done a few good things too. One example of that are trade unions - they have been a major problem in commie ruled states but in non-commie states they are only ones which are less corrupt. One person that I know, who is the management of a major Indian company, once remarked to me that you can buy all non-commie trade unions by paying some money to their party leaders but generally commies hold ground and they genuinely fight for worker rights.

The bottom line of what I want to say, is although they are a major reason for why we are a backward nation; they do a few good things too.

About the IT exports, so far India is not doing anything which China cannot do by itself in a few more years. We dont do much proprietary software work.

Samina - :). No I havent read it. I`ll keep an eye out for it.

Stuka:

I knew someone would bring up the IT business. You`re not thinking this through - the Chinese arent stupid. They can see the writing on the IT wall and are taking steps to counter it like any country desirous of maintaining its economic lead and without any sense of accountability to its people. More than 50% of our export to China is iron. That comes with an implicit time limit.

Why do I thank God for our lefties? Because they may be financial disasters (as you pointed out in the Kerala model) but they`re sociologically valuable. Everyone is so caught up in the Chinese financial model that no one pays attention to what lies beneath. If the Chinese lefties you like so much were to come set up political shop in India, you`d soon change your tune.

As for trade and environmental regulations - yes, they`re skewed against us. That is why American trade unions lobby for equal pay and conditions around the world and Indian trade unions and that of other developing nations oppose it vehemently. Yes, our lefty trade unions. You see, the time is past for one single world view. Ground realities have taught the lefties that - you can see it coming along very slowly and they seem to be fighting every inch of the way but you`ll see it on the national stage too. In fact, you`ve been seeing it - they`ve managed to water down stuff where they`ve percieved threat but in the end they will stand behnd PC.

But the truth is also that sooner or later we will approach a crisis - in environment if nothing else. Look around and you will see the problems waiting for all of us. the environment is a real problem and sooner or later we will deal with it. Chances are we will wait until things are so bad that we can`t put off a decision and millions will die and then the world will reach consensus. Which is why leadership is so important. Politicians need to get to solutions before we reach more than halfway to hell.

PS - I have no illusions as to China`s superior economic might. I was talking about FDI in a given year. period.

Amrita:

Avenger is right about IT products and services. India`s surplus actually exists because of value added items which is exactly where you want to be.

You say Thank God for our lefties rather than theirs? Why? Their lefties have increased GDP production and have widened the gap with India every year since 1980. Our leftists have not come up with a single concrete idea for economic progress. It is less bureaucratic to set up a business in China compared to India. Our labor laws are some of the most restrictive in the world. Also, unemployment is highest in Kerala where trade unionism is rampant and militant and so the state has essentially become a gulf based economy. Our leftists also play a different tune in power( West Bengal) and a different one when they are not in government (like the centre). Why is Buddhadeb encouraging FDI in Bengal if his party is so much against it for the rest of the country?

``How long are we going to be top dog keeping in mind the surplus is a little over 1 billion and the biggest items of export from India are iron and steel, cotton yarn, precious stones, etc and the biggest imports from China are textile fabrics, electrical machinery, plastic products, etc? ``.

You forget IT products and services. India earned $15 billion from IT exports last year. Telecom too is a niche area. Manufacturing in India has of late woken up as well. India exports tractors to USA and cars to eastern europe. The yardstick to judge India , is not by its past - when it was stifled by socialists and leftists alike - but by its present and its potential future. And for this extraordinary potential to be achieved India desperately needs to liberalise its economy further , integrate with the global economy completely , introduce labor flexibility (`hire and fire`) , get rid of all the obscurantist labor/environment regulations , de-bureacratise , de-politicise and hopefully build huge concentration or organised labor camps like the gulag where the leftists and socialists can live in peace brooding over the `Das Kapital` in between their shifts.


``Btw don’t get hoodwinked into believing that India and China have an immense gap in terms of FDI because the reported figures for both countries are based on their definitions of FDI – China abides by the IMF definition; were India to follow the same then the gap is 10 billion or so rather than the 50 reported right now. Plus, I heard that China’s accounting practices are a little shady when it comes to foreign investment so a significant amount of its FDI is actually domestic cash``

Perhaps.BUT - Whether China`s FDI figures are fudged or not , fact remains China has twice the GDP of India today. And this is inspite of the fact that only as far back as 1978 , India had a slightly higher GDP than China. Then in 1978 China opened its economy for foreign investment , received over $500 billion in FDI , and zoomed ahead.



``And India did all this in a very diff socio-political scenario. Thank God for the lefties we’ve got rather than the lefties they’ve got. ``

Chinese leftists , the post-Mao generation , are more `rightists` really. They are great nationalists - great patriots. They are ambitious about their country and want it to be the greatest in the world. They are `leftists` by name only. By deed , they are the greatest capitalists in the world today - for they are the greatest advocates of globalisation and economic liberalisation. Why ? Because they know that globalisation is good for the people of China and is the only way to catch up with the first world.


Indian leftists are anti-national , and have tried to stifle progress at every step. Mindlessly parroting the ideas of Marx , Mao and Lenin , they have closed their eyes and ears to the realities of the modern world.If the leftists of India were given power or freedom to implement their plans , India wouldn`t exist by today. India would be like Africa - a continent with several warring clans where 90% of the population is starving to death - often depending on the kindness of Oprah and Bono for daily sustenance.

But still , sadly for India , although not in power , leftists do have a say . And that is the reason the pace of economic reforms in India has been so excruciatingly slow. That is the reason India has been so slow to get off the marks and is struggling to catch up with China.

The basic difference between India and China is - China is what it is , BECAUSE of its government. India is what it is INSPITE of its government.


``As for labor and environmental laws… hold on for a sec ``

Yes. Silly labor laws , activist trade unionism , lack of a simple `hire and fire` policy....are holding India back. It is the biggest reason for the manufacturing sector in India not being able to reach its full potential.

If industry in India is to expand , and if more jobs are to be created , most of the labor regulations have to be scrapped.

Amrita,

Good control of the board, girl!

Have you read David Shipler`s The Working Poor; Invisible in America? Its a pretty nuanced argument for more employer and corporate responsibilities esp. viz globalisation in sweatshops, walmarts and farms worked by migrant undocumented workers.

Btw, the index page references poor/working class/US/Economic conditions/Finance-personal/Cost and Standard of living/wages/income/debt

-S